WORLD RELIGIONS

Longfellow

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As I said, I think that it's good for people and for the world for people to encourage and support each other in whatever paths they're following for their own progress and for human progress in general. When people are thinking monotheistically, it can be helpful for them in their own minds to think of other people's religions as different ways for their God to teach people using different languages and cultural environments. I'm interested in non monotheistic ways of thinking about encouraging and supporting people in whatever paths they're following, without stigmatizing and marginalizing people who are thinking monotheistically, and/or people who think that their scriptures are infallible.
 
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dattaswami2

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As I said, I think that it's good for people and for the world for people to encourage and support each other in whatever paths they're following for their own progress and for human progress in general. When people are thinking monotheistically, it can be helpful for them in their own minds to think of other people's religions as different ways for their God to teach people using different languages and cultural environments. I'm interested in non monotheistic ways of thinking about encouraging and supporting people in whatever paths they're following, without stigmatizing and marginalizing people who are thinking monotheistically, and/or people who think that their scriptures are infallible.
Your thoughts are noble...
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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I'm not sure where the Question was but . . . a Belief System that you (like most) left out of your equation is the Western Left Hand Path of which I adhere to. In this Belief System we believe that all the other Right Hand Path religions share a single, universal perennial doctrine. This doctrine posits that the highest good that human life can achieve is through the union with a Supreme Being / Energy/All of the Universe. However, the way in which this is achieved is through the deception of one's conscious awareness into believing that one has been accepted by this Supreme Being/Energy/All otherwise known as the objective universe, which can be understood as it plainly is, a non-conscious, unaware, unintelligent, mechanism of Negentropy and Entropy, composed of Time, Space & Matter. To absolve one's self into this is antithetical to the Western LHP goals of individuation, and Self-Deification.

Our understanding is that religious thought has supplanted Man's true understanding of His Greater Self/GodSelf, which is individual and unique to each of us, with that of some notion of an external deity in charge of everything. The Way of the Black Flame, or in my specific practice the 'Black Light of Iblīs Šayṭā, is the way of conscious self-awareness giving us the ability to alter, determine, and direct our own course in a way no other species is capable of on earth. We are not at the mercy of Nature's wrath, or some ill-perceived God, we can stand apart from this unconscious, mechanism and go against its flow, create and reinvent ourselves. The Way of Nature is the way of least resistance, which may appeal to the herd mentality, however, consciousness is born and evolved through the path of difficulty and challenge. It will only develop and be made more conscious through conscious effort. Nature/God cannot do this for us, it can only make us more unconscious.
 

dattaswami2

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She does? Did she invite you for supper?

Boundary of universe and what? A void? Heaven? Another verse.....is this the song that never ends?
No soul can cross the space because the link between the generator-unimaginable God and generated imaginable space is unimaginable. Unless this link is crossed, you can’t touch unimaginable God. The space can’t exist in God before its generation. If it existed, it is not generated. Hence, God has no space or volume in Him. Anything having no volume can never be imagined by anybody even if He concentrates for millions of years. Hence, unimaginable God can never be touched by the brain of the soul.
 

dattaswami2

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I'm n...

Our understanding is that religious thought has supplanted Man's true understanding of His Greater Self/GodSelf, which is individual and unique to each of us, with that of some notion of an external deity in charge of everything. The Way of the Black Flame, or in my specific practice the 'Black Light of Iblīs Šayṭā, is the way of conscious self-awareness giving us the ability to alter, determine, and direct our own course in a way no other species is capable of on earth. We are not at the mercy of Nature's wrath, or some ill-perceived God, we can stand apart from this unconscious, mechanism and go against its flow, create and reinvent ourselves. The Way of Nature is the way of least resistance, which may appeal to the herd mentality, however, consciousness is born and evolved through the path of difficulty and challenge. It will only develop and be made more conscious through conscious effort. Nature/God cannot do this for us, it can only make us more unconscious.

The reason why God’s nature is unimaginable is that space was generated from God (Ātmana ākāśaḥ...—Veda). It means that space did not exist in God before its generation. If space had existed in God before its generation, we could not have said that space was generated from God because it would have already existed in its cause (God).

This does not mean that the effect (space) was generated from nothing (Asatkārya Vāda) because the cause (God) did exist before the generation of the effect (Satkārya Vāda). So, we are not saying that space was generated from nothing, but that space was generated from the God who existed before it.

Since space is absent in God, it means that God has no spatial dimensions and has no volume at all. You may try for millions of years to imagine an item without volume, but you cannot imagine it. Hence, God is unimaginable. This point makes space or the universe infinite, without an end.

It means that even though space actually has limited boundaries, it constantly expands as we try to reach the boundary. This constant expansion of the universe is also spoken of by science. The reason space expands is that if we were to reach the boundary of space, we would touch the boundary of the unimaginable God.

Reaching the boundary of the sea means touching the boundary of land. We cannot reach the boundary of space since we cannot touch the boundary of the unimaginable God. The wall worshipped in Islam indicates this concept that the boundary of the universe stands as God Himself.

If we follow a trail of smoke backwards, we will reach the cause of the smoke, which is fire. Similarly, if we travel along the diameter of the universe, which is estimated to be a huge number of light years by science, we will surely touch the boundary of the unimaginable God.

We are not able to touch the boundary of space, not because the boundary is really infinite, but because touching the boundary of space means touching the boundary of the unimaginable God, which is impossible.

Since the latter is impossible, the former becomes impossible. The created universe is not really infinite because its boundaries are known to the omniscient God.
 

dattaswami2

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And you...

Evidently.
When space is absent in God, we cannot say that the unimaginable God surrounded the imaginable sphere of universe like an external sphere. To say like that, we are provoked from the point of our faculty of understanding. Actually, this means that the unimaginable God exists everywhere around us in an unimaginable way. It is a mode of our assumption to represent like that for the sake of the convenience of our imagination. It is only in the effective sense and not in the physical sense.

In this effective sense only, the Gita said that the unimaginable God is surrounding the universe (Sarvamāvṛtya tiṣṭhati). If we say that the unimaginable God surrounds us in an unimaginable way, the strain in understanding the concept becomes more complicated. Not only the nature of unimaginable God is unimaginable but the ways of His actions are also unimaginable. God Datta is not different from the unimaginable God. We can imagine that God Datta is surrounding the universe. But, here also, effective sense can be taken because God Datta need not surround the universe in physical sense. In effective sense, God Datta is surrounding the boundary of universe because God Datta is omnipotent due to unimaginable nature.
 

dattaswami2

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For God the boundary of universe is also imaginable, but for human beings the boundary of universe is unimaginable. Even though God is unimaginable to us, He is imaginable to Himself.
 

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In this effective sense only, the Gita said that the unimaginable God is surrounding the universe (Sarvamāvṛtya tiṣṭhati). If we say that the unimaginable God surrounds us in an unimaginable way, the strain in understanding the concept becomes more complicated.
Actually, I've met many simple believers who have no trouble with that at all. I think you're trying to explain the simple in a very convoluted manner.

The Christian Bible says: "In Him we live and move and have our being" (St Paul speaking to the Athenians, Acts 17:28). Paul is quoting Epimenides of Cnossos, a poet from Crete who lived 600 or so years before Christ.

St Augustine said, effectively, "God is closer to me than I am to myself".

God is. Always. Everywhere.
 
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'Amir Alzzalam

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The reason why God’s nature is unimaginable is that space was generated from God (Ātmana ākāśaḥ...—Veda). It means that space did not exist in God before its generation. If space had existed in God before its generation, we could not have said that space was generated from God because it would have already existed in its cause (God).
You do know what Circular Logic is, right?
 

dattaswami2

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You do know what Circular Logic is, right?
Let us analyse it through 3 types of logic:

1. Logic of Infinite Regress: In this universe, every item has another item as its cause. That cause will have still another item as its cause. In this way, the ad-infinitum or infinite regress (Anavasthaa) results by which the chain of causes becomes endless. Somewhere, we have to stop so that the ultimate cause is not having its own cause. But, if we see this chain of items appearing as products of upper causes, it should be endless because all these imaginable products must have their causes as we observe the nature of items of imaginable world. Energy is seen to be generated from matter (cause) and matter seems to be generated from energy because matter is condensed energy.

Awareness seems to be generated from the inert energy transformed in materialized nervous system and this inert energy is also generated from food (matter). In this way, the three fundamental constituents of the creation called inert energy, inert matter and non-inert awareness are seen as products of other causes even though, a circular cycle is involved. You may say that since matter and awareness are products of inert energy, let the energy be the ultimate cause of the creation. Such energy is inert and can’t have planned the design of the universe so systematically as told in the Brahmasuutras (Īkṣateḥ…). Even if you support the inert energy based on the theory of probability (which says that some design must have happened based on certain probability), the other three types of logics mentioned below force us to accept the discovery of unimaginable item as the ultimate cause of the creation.

Hence, there is a force that demands the ultimate cause of all these imaginable items must be an unimaginable item, which can be called by a name ‘ParaBrahman’ or unimaginable God.

2. Logic of Space: Einstein feels that space is nothing since there is no absolute space but, only a geometrical space. It means space is the distance between two objects A and B. When A and B disappear the space between A and B also disappears. Beyond A there may be a new object X and beyond B there may be a new object Y. Even though, the space between A and B disappears along with A and B, it is not experienced by us because of the existence of space between X and Y. If we take this sense, space is not included in the creation because nothing can be created. In this sense, space is only conventional or myth. In such case, there is no meaning in searching for the cause of the space. Neglecting space, we have to search for the cause of inert energy and such cause alone can be the ultimate cause of this universe. Regarding matter and awareness, we need not worry because both these are different forms of the same inert energy. Matter is said to be condensed energy and awareness is a special work form of inert energy transformed in the functioning brain-nervous system. In this line, we have to simply search for the cause of inert energy (cosmic energy), which will be the ultimate cause of creation.

Taking another angle of the above topic, we like to consider space as a subtle form of inert energy. Scientists say that from vacuum galaxies are generated. They also say that space bends along the boundary of an object and in such case, space must be something since nothing can bend along the boundary. The Veda also says that God generated space in the beginning of the creation (Ātmana Ākāśaḥ…). It is also said in the Veda that God created energy (Tat tejo'sṛjata…) in the beginning because the first item of the creation must have been created by God only since the second item onwards it is told to be created from the first item. Hence, both space and energy happen to be the first item only. Therefore, it is forced to accept that space is energy by which the contradiction will disappear.

However, since space is also energy, in this line also we have to search for the ultimate cause of the creation that generated the energy only as said in the above paragraph. The entire creation can be considered as subtle energy or space from which matter and awareness were created in course of time resulting in various living and non-living items. Here, scientists take the creation as four-dimensional space-time model. If we analyse sharply, time is also a coordinate of space only that pervades all the three spatial coordinates.

Time depends on the revolution of earth and relative movement of sun and moon. Time is defined as the distance between two incidents taking place in the space. Time is also expressed in terms of spatial coordinates as we see people saying that the time in the morning is about two hands distance from the horizon, which means that the sun moved up so much distance. We also express the distance in the units of time by saying a billion light years distance. Hence, time is not mentioned as an independent item at all in the process of creation described by the Veda. Hence, when we say that the ultimate cause generated space, it means it generated space-time model. We can briefly call this space-time model as space itself in brief.

Now, when the ultimate cause generated space, the ultimate cause must not have space in it. If space existed in the ultimate cause before the generation of space, it becomes absurd since space exists in the ultimate cause even before its generation. In such case, you cannot say that space is generated by the ultimate cause. This means that the ultimate cause is not having space in it, which means that the ultimate cause has no spatial dimensions or the ultimate cause has no volume. Any item with zero volume can never be imagined by any human being even if it breaks its head for millions of births. Hence, the ultimate cause of the creation is unimaginable.

3. Logic of Boundary of the Universe: As per the above explanation, the entire creation can be viewed as basically the inert cosmic energy only. This energy or creation is imaginable domain, which is this imaginable universe. The boundary of the universe is unimaginable, which means that the material of the boundary is imaginable, but, the distance at which this boundary exists is unimaginable. This means as we or our imagination proceeds along the diameter of the universe to touch its end point, the end point goes on running away from us or our imagination. The universe may have a definite boundary, but, it is not touched by us. We say that the boundary is definite because the boundary of the creation is imaginable to God and is not unimaginable to God. When God told that the boundary of His creation is infinite (Nānto'sti mama divyāanāṃ vibhūtīnām…- Gītā), it means that His creation is infinite for the human beings only and not for Himself.

This definite boundary is running away as we try to touch it. This can be supported by the theory of expansion of universe as suggested by scientists. The boundary of the creation is not really infinite, but, it is running away from us (our imagination) since we are not supposed to touch it. What is the reason for this, especially when the boundary of creation is not really at infinite distance? The reason is that as we proceed to touch the boundary of the imaginable universe, the unimaginable domain or the ultimate cause of the creation or God is going more and more away from us because the unimaginable domain can never be touched by the imaginable human beings. Hence, the reason for the expansion of universe is not really the real phenomenon of expansion of creation, but, the actual reason is that the unimaginable domain, which is adjacent to the boundary of imaginable domain is going away since it is untouchable to the brains of imaginable human beings. It is only a relative concept.

However, this analysis proves that the boundary of imaginable creation, which is just adjacent to the unimaginable domain can’t be touched because the unimaginable domain is really the untouchable item for the imagination of imaginable human beings. This can be understood by a simile: let us suppose that the boundary of the ocean (imaginable domain) is just adjacent to the boundary of land (unimaginable domain). In such case, since you can’t touch the land (unimaginable), you can never reach the boundary of water of the ocean (even though it is imaginable). This means essentially that the unimaginable land is actually going back so that you shall not touch it and consequently the imaginable water of ocean is expanding though this water is imaginable and has a finite boundary that is known by omniscient God.

In this way, the expansion of universe is only a relative phenomenon while the incapability of touching the unimaginable God is the final absolute phenomenon. All this again proves that the unimaginable God or the ultimate cause of the creation is surrounding all the creation (Sarvamāvṛtya tiṣṭhati…- Gītā). By this, we can imagine the unimaginable God as the ultimate cause like fire from whom the imaginable creation was generated like smoke. If you follow the track of the smoke, you will reach its cause or fire. But, since the fire (cause) is unimaginable, you can never reach the end point of the track of the smoke (boundary of imaginable universe). All this again proves finally that the ultimate cause of this creation is unimaginable God called ParaBrahman.

4. Logic of miracles: In the creation we find genuine miracles. We also find false miracles called magic which does not mean the genuine miracles are absent. These genuine miracles are perceivable by us, but, the cause or source of these unimaginable events can’t be explained, which means that their source is unimaginable. This again proves that the unimaginable source of miracles exists and such source is again the same ultimate cause of the creation as explained in the above mentioned three types of logics. Moreover, the performer of these unimaginable miracles is the human incarnation of unimaginable God like the recent Satya Sai Baba, Who represents the unimaginable God since incarnation means the unimaginable God present in visible and imaginable medium. This is a direct proof of the direct concept of creation of this world by the unimaginable God that can be easily concluded by seeing creation of energy, matter and awareness by the human incarnation.

Conclusion: On uniting the above said four types of logic, we can easily conclude the existence of unimaginable God or ParaBrahman as the ultimate cause of this creation, Who punishes the sinners through unimaginable ways even if the sinner escape the law of the land by their crooked intelligence. Since the ways of unimaginable God are unimaginable, the sinner cannot contemplate the crooked ways to escape the punishment of the sin and hence, the punishment for the sin is inevitable. The only way to escape the punishments of sins from God is reformation of the soul that includes realization of the sin, repentance for the sin and non-repetition of the sin. Except this one way, there is no other way to escape the punishment of sin that is implemented by the unimaginable God. By intensive worships to God, the sin is only postponed to later time to undergo the punishment with accumulated interest. The devotee thinks that the innocent God is exploited by his/her soaping technology feeling that God cancelled the sin forever. Of course, in extremely special cases of devotion at climax level, God undergoes the punishments of the sins of the devotees, Who never aspire for such suffering of God. Instead of all these exceptional intricate options, how simple it is to undergo the above mentioned reformation!
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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Let us analyse it through 3 types of logic:

1. Logic of Infinite Regress: In this universe, every item has another item as its cause. That cause will have still another item as its cause. In this way, the ad-infinitum or infinite regress (Anavasthaa) results by which the chain of causes becomes endless. Somewhere, we have to stop so that the ultimate cause is not having its own cause. But, if we see this chain of items appearing as products of upper causes, it should be endless because all these imaginable products must have their causes as we observe the nature of items of imaginable world. Energy is seen to be generated from matter (cause) and matter seems to be generated from energy because matter is condensed energy.

Awareness seems to be generated from the inert energy transformed in materialized nervous system and this inert energy is also generated from food (matter). In this way, the three fundamental constituents of the creation called inert energy, inert matter and non-inert awareness are seen as products of other causes even though, a circular cycle is involved. You may say that since matter and awareness are products of inert energy, let the energy be the ultimate cause of the creation. Such energy is inert and can’t have planned the design of the universe so systematically as told in the Brahmasuutras (Īkṣateḥ…). Even if you support the inert energy based on the theory of probability (which says that some design must have happened based on certain probability), the other three types of logics mentioned below force us to accept the discovery of unimaginable item as the ultimate cause of the creation.

Hence, there is a force that demands the ultimate cause of all these imaginable items must be an unimaginable item, which can be called by a name ‘ParaBrahman’ or unimaginable God.

2. Logic of Space: Einstein feels that space is nothing since there is no absolute space but, only a geometrical space. It means space is the distance between two objects A and B. When A and B disappear the space between A and B also disappears. Beyond A there may be a new object X and beyond B there may be a new object Y. Even though, the space between A and B disappears along with A and B, it is not experienced by us because of the existence of space between X and Y. If we take this sense, space is not included in the creation because nothing can be created. In this sense, space is only conventional or myth. In such case, there is no meaning in searching for the cause of the space. Neglecting space, we have to search for the cause of inert energy and such cause alone can be the ultimate cause of this universe. Regarding matter and awareness, we need not worry because both these are different forms of the same inert energy. Matter is said to be condensed energy and awareness is a special work form of inert energy transformed in the functioning brain-nervous system. In this line, we have to simply search for the cause of inert energy (cosmic energy), which will be the ultimate cause of creation.

Taking another angle of the above topic, we like to consider space as a subtle form of inert energy. Scientists say that from vacuum galaxies are generated. They also say that space bends along the boundary of an object and in such case, space must be something since nothing can bend along the boundary. The Veda also says that God generated space in the beginning of the creation (Ātmana Ākāśaḥ…). It is also said in the Veda that God created energy (Tat tejo'sṛjata…) in the beginning because the first item of the creation must have been created by God only since the second item onwards it is told to be created from the first item. Hence, both space and energy happen to be the first item only. Therefore, it is forced to accept that space is energy by which the contradiction will disappear.

However, since space is also energy, in this line also we have to search for the ultimate cause of the creation that generated the energy only as said in the above paragraph. The entire creation can be considered as subtle energy or space from which matter and awareness were created in course of time resulting in various living and non-living items. Here, scientists take the creation as four-dimensional space-time model. If we analyse sharply, time is also a coordinate of space only that pervades all the three spatial coordinates.

Time depends on the revolution of earth and relative movement of sun and moon. Time is defined as the distance between two incidents taking place in the space. Time is also expressed in terms of spatial coordinates as we see people saying that the time in the morning is about two hands distance from the horizon, which means that the sun moved up so much distance. We also express the distance in the units of time by saying a billion light years distance. Hence, time is not mentioned as an independent item at all in the process of creation described by the Veda. Hence, when we say that the ultimate cause generated space, it means it generated space-time model. We can briefly call this space-time model as space itself in brief.

Now, when the ultimate cause generated space, the ultimate cause must not have space in it. If space existed in the ultimate cause before the generation of space, it becomes absurd since space exists in the ultimate cause even before its generation. In such case, you cannot say that space is generated by the ultimate cause. This means that the ultimate cause is not having space in it, which means that the ultimate cause has no spatial dimensions or the ultimate cause has no volume. Any item with zero volume can never be imagined by any human being even if it breaks its head for millions of births. Hence, the ultimate cause of the creation is unimaginable.

3. Logic of Boundary of the Universe: As per the above explanation, the entire creation can be viewed as basically the inert cosmic energy only. This energy or creation is imaginable domain, which is this imaginable universe. The boundary of the universe is unimaginable, which means that the material of the boundary is imaginable, but, the distance at which this boundary exists is unimaginable. This means as we or our imagination proceeds along the diameter of the universe to touch its end point, the end point goes on running away from us or our imagination. The universe may have a definite boundary, but, it is not touched by us. We say that the boundary is definite because the boundary of the creation is imaginable to God and is not unimaginable to God. When God told that the boundary of His creation is infinite (Nānto'sti mama divyāanāṃ vibhūtīnām…- Gītā), it means that His creation is infinite for the human beings only and not for Himself.

This definite boundary is running away as we try to touch it. This can be supported by the theory of expansion of universe as suggested by scientists. The boundary of the creation is not really infinite, but, it is running away from us (our imagination) since we are not supposed to touch it. What is the reason for this, especially when the boundary of creation is not really at infinite distance? The reason is that as we proceed to touch the boundary of the imaginable universe, the unimaginable domain or the ultimate cause of the creation or God is going more and more away from us because the unimaginable domain can never be touched by the imaginable human beings. Hence, the reason for the expansion of universe is not really the real phenomenon of expansion of creation, but, the actual reason is that the unimaginable domain, which is adjacent to the boundary of imaginable domain is going away since it is untouchable to the brains of imaginable human beings. It is only a relative concept.

However, this analysis proves that the boundary of imaginable creation, which is just adjacent to the unimaginable domain can’t be touched because the unimaginable domain is really the untouchable item for the imagination of imaginable human beings. This can be understood by a simile: let us suppose that the boundary of the ocean (imaginable domain) is just adjacent to the boundary of land (unimaginable domain). In such case, since you can’t touch the land (unimaginable), you can never reach the boundary of water of the ocean (even though it is imaginable). This means essentially that the unimaginable land is actually going back so that you shall not touch it and consequently the imaginable water of ocean is expanding though this water is imaginable and has a finite boundary that is known by omniscient God.

In this way, the expansion of universe is only a relative phenomenon while the incapability of touching the unimaginable God is the final absolute phenomenon. All this again proves that the unimaginable God or the ultimate cause of the creation is surrounding all the creation (Sarvamāvṛtya tiṣṭhati…- Gītā). By this, we can imagine the unimaginable God as the ultimate cause like fire from whom the imaginable creation was generated like smoke. If you follow the track of the smoke, you will reach its cause or fire. But, since the fire (cause) is unimaginable, you can never reach the end point of the track of the smoke (boundary of imaginable universe). All this again proves finally that the ultimate cause of this creation is unimaginable God called ParaBrahman.

4. Logic of miracles: In the creation we find genuine miracles. We also find false miracles called magic which does not mean the genuine miracles are absent. These genuine miracles are perceivable by us, but, the cause or source of these unimaginable events can’t be explained, which means that their source is unimaginable. This again proves that the unimaginable source of miracles exists and such source is again the same ultimate cause of the creation as explained in the above mentioned three types of logics. Moreover, the performer of these unimaginable miracles is the human incarnation of unimaginable God like the recent Satya Sai Baba, Who represents the unimaginable God since incarnation means the unimaginable God present in visible and imaginable medium. This is a direct proof of the direct concept of creation of this world by the unimaginable God that can be easily concluded by seeing creation of energy, matter and awareness by the human incarnation.

Conclusion: On uniting the above said four types of logic, we can easily conclude the existence of unimaginable God or ParaBrahman as the ultimate cause of this creation, Who punishes the sinners through unimaginable ways even if the sinner escape the law of the land by their crooked intelligence. Since the ways of unimaginable God are unimaginable, the sinner cannot contemplate the crooked ways to escape the punishment of the sin and hence, the punishment for the sin is inevitable. The only way to escape the punishments of sins from God is reformation of the soul that includes realization of the sin, repentance for the sin and non-repetition of the sin. Except this one way, there is no other way to escape the punishment of sin that is implemented by the unimaginable God. By intensive worships to God, the sin is only postponed to later time to undergo the punishment with accumulated interest. The devotee thinks that the innocent God is exploited by his/her soaping technology feeling that God cancelled the sin forever. Of course, in extremely special cases of devotion at climax level, God undergoes the punishments of the sins of the devotees, Who never aspire for such suffering of God. Instead of all these exceptional intricate options, how simple it is to undergo the above mentioned reformation!
You are one of those rare humans with the ability to say nothing with a million words . . . kudos!
 

RJM

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God has no beginning and no end because God is unimaginable. The beginning and the end must be also unimaginable for an unimaginable item. The creator cannot be any item of the creation. If creator becomes creation, there must be some other creator for this creator to become the creation. Ad-infinitum (Anavastha) results. Science disproved some conclusions of the earlier logic and this should not be misunderstood as refusing God. God is in no way touched because the earlier logic also was dealing with only the analysis of created items. Tarka means the analysis of the items of creation, which are indicated and understood by their corresponding names or words (Tarkyante Padarthah Asminniti….). God is beyond all the words and cannot be the understood meaning of any word and therefore, logic cannot touch God.


Today science is the most advanced logic since the experimental verification was improved. Therefore if I am explaining the philosophy based on science, it means that the philosophy is more and more clear due to the advanced logic. I told you already that the logic (science) is only useful to refuse any item of creation as not God.


We should base the subject of philosophy related to God on good logic, which is scientific and systematic without defects like mutual contradiction, ad-infinitum etc.


The example for ad-infinitum is that an endless chain is created in statements like ‘which is the cause for God?’ In the analysis of creation, you may go on stating the cause for every cause.


You may say that the cause for earth is water. The cause for water is fire. The cause for fire is air. The cause for air is space. The cause for space is God (Atmana Aakashah… Veda). You should stop at a particular cause, which has no cause. If you go on giving cause to every cause, the chain will never end. Such a defect is called as ad-infinitum (Anavasthaa). To remove this defect, we have to stop at some cause, which is called as the ultimate cause i.e., the God. Hence, the subject of philosophy (Vedanta) should be always based on good logic (Sat tarka) only. Shankara told this point that bad crooked logic should be stopped and good logic should be followed in any discussion (Dustarkah suviramyataam shrutimatah tarkonu sandhiyataam…).
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Thomas

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God is not present everywhere like air present in a room.
We know. I think your problem is discerning the analogy.

We mean such things as analogies, you read it literally, and so don't understand what we mean, and then you get caught up in pointless scientific discussions ...
 

dattaswami2

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We know. I think your problem is discerning the analogy.

We mean such things as analogies, you read it literally, and so don't understand what we mean, and then you get caught up in pointless scientific discussions ...

God is unimaginable. He do not possess any spatial coordinates and space came from Him. He created the entire universe for His own entertainment. For seeing the creation; 2 items shall exists the creation and creator hence creation is not pervaded by God! If creation is entirely pervaded by God then even a criminal will have God in him!!! It is not so.

However God comes to this world in human form like Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, Sai Baba, Shankara etc to preach divine knowledge to uplift us such Human form of God or Human incarnation of God alone is God, since God is present in Them. Whoever had seen such alive human form of God had seen God only, this is the only way for us human beings to see God. No other way than this way!! This is the reason Jesus told to Philip that whenever one sees Jesus, he is seeing Father in Heaven alone!! Since God is impartial He comes to this world in human form in every human generation. One shall meet the present human form of God.
{request to moderator: Kindly please do not delete this reply}
 
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dattaswami2

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And this is you? Please reply if possible

See when God comes to this world in human form, He will never say that He is God in human form and one shall come to Him and praise Him or serve Him etc. In a laboratory the salt is given and they asked to find out the type of salt. One will do the prescribed analysis and find out the name of the salt given to him in the lab. In the same way, God in human form comes to this world and preaches the divine knowledge. He will never declare that He is God in human form to the public. The reason is that generally public is effected with ego and jealousy. The person by himself after studying the divine knowledge shall decide whether the person is really God in human form or not. Your inner-consciousness shall get satisfied by the divine knowledge preached by Him. Then only you should accept Him as God in human form. It is solely your responsibility.

Generally a human being do not like another human being if he is greater than him. This is natural. Hence if God in human form tells that He is God to such people, immediately such people will reject Him and neglect Him, insult Him and mock Him!! Then according to the level of the person God in human form speaks. For example, when God came to this world in the form of Jesus, several people approached Him. To the common public who are just followed Him to see the miracles and get cure and boons; Jesus told that He is only a messenger of God.

To a person who has conquered ego and jealousy partially to him; HE told His is more than an messenger and is like a son of God very near and dear to God.

To His disciples who conquered ego and jealousy HE told He is God Himself and He is the God in human form of that generation to them.

Therefore God do not want any name and fame here. He is already fed up with extensive fame and name in the upper-world and hence for a change He comes down to this world in human form so that He even enjoys insult and negligence by His children here!

His main purpose is to preach the divine knowledge to uplift the humanity, so that peace will be maintained in the society. He never aspire for your service or worship. If you are living happily following justice then that is more than sufficient for Him.
 
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