Do angels have free will?

Discussion in 'Esoteric' started by robocombot, Mar 21, 2005.

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Do angels have free will?

  1. Yes

    55.6%
  2. No

    44.4%
  1. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    What is there to judge? Man will stand in judgement of Angels...how hard is that to accept? Only certain Angels do not want this to happen.

    but then, what do I know? ;)

    v/r

    Q
     
  2. queenofsheba

    queenofsheba New Member

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    Normally, angels don't have a free will, because they are different emanations of God. Otherwise, christianity would be polytheistic.

    One day, God decided to give one angel a free will and that one became the fallen angel, because it wanted to be bigger than God.
     
  3. endtimes

    endtimes New Member

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    Excellent point, (about the polytheism), queenofsheba! Thank you for the insight : )
     
  4. Staffy

    Staffy Allahu Akbar

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    In Islam angels have free will.......Only the only angel who chose to be arogant and self rightous is oblis(Shaytan)..........From my understanding anyway;) Take it easy guys and girls............Staffy
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2005
  5. Satanist

    Satanist New Member

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    I think that angels are collectivist servitor beings. A hive mind of creatures that are just aspects of the God, they don't have a free will.

    The angels are basically polyteistic gods.

    The angels orginated in chaos before God, and after the deluge
    they merged into one God spread through seven heavenly kingdom
    as he created a new world in seven days after deluge not before.
    (The seven-fold genesis story is older than monoteism
    and the story of the deluge is older than both).
    Becouse of the deluge nobody remembered the culture or religion before the water and it seemed like the world was ceated for the first time.


    Together they formed a unity that is the unified aspect of God
    and the all the other poly Gods are the non-unified aspect of god
    percieved as fallen angels.

    The fallen angels are the gods that refused this sacrifice of individuality and are therefore free.

    So angels do not have free will, only God himself and the fallen angels have free will.
     
  6. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    That is an interesting perspective...


    v/r

    Q
     
  7. Satanist

    Satanist New Member

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    Is it relevant to imagine that since we are discussing angels not any particular religion.

    If A. The angels are aspects of a monistic diety formed by the collective
    of all the angels.


    If B. There is a dualism between opposites.
    Monism in on end and polyism in the other end.


    What are then the fallen angels to God?
    Would that mean that God is not allmighty or is the chaos another aspect of God?
    What there is a chaotic and childlish side of God
    or is there other Multiple Monotheist Hosts of angels in the other end?
     
  8. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Or, that the angels expressed an idea to be individualists, after knowing the plan of the "God", and this contradicted the will of said God. Is it a childish concept for the creator to want his creation to adhere to his original designs? If the original designs fail, is it childish to work with the failed part, in order to prevent similar failures in the future (the end goal still in sight and salvagable)?

    Interesting thoughts.

    v/r

    Q
     
  9. Lot

    Lot New Member

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    Angels do have free will. If not, why would they need to be judged? If they were created as robots, programed to do God's will, they would just do that, until the end. But I beleive it is Paul who tells us that for a little while, we are lower than the angels, but we will judge them.

    The jinn is another branch of the hybrid race called the nephilum. This is unfair however, because there are more branches to the childeren of the fallen angels anyway. They were like different tribes of offspring. The genni of the lamp is a common and modern incarnation of the jinn.
     
  10. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    Above every blade of grass there is an angel urging: "grow, grow!"

    Chris
     
  11. Virtual_Cliff

    Virtual_Cliff New Member

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    I've just caught up with this thread. Extraordinary! This is the same metaphor that I have used myself BUT to show almost the opposite.

    The point is: if you asked a fish, it would have absolutely no idea what water was. Leaving aside the floor of the ocean, water is all around the fish since birth. It breathes water. It is mostly made of water. Its whole world is water. Water is immanent and transcendant, like God.

    We are in the same relationship to God as the fish is to water.
     
  12. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

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    Cliff:
    I personally have missed you here.

    Yes, it's about the relationship of fish to water. But on a wider basis, it's really about the relationship of all levels of accessable quantum worlds with each other.

    The Russians depict this by making nested dolls.

    When my Dad passed last spring he was cremated, and now I think of myself as breathing a little of his essence in and out with each breath I take each day and night. In some very real ways he is as with me now as when I could laugh and talk with him. But belief is an important component of this sort of approach.

    flow....;)
     
  13. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Did Satan?....
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Are we not in the same relationship to air as the fish is to water?

    But fish do not reflect upon the nature of the environment, man does, so in that sense, we are in a very different relationship, are we not?

    Thomas
     
  15. zeras

    zeras New Member

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    Asaalaamulikum,

    very good question,
    I do not agree that angels have free will like mankind does,
    They are the true slaves of God, They never back down or go against what
    God has commanded them to do. Know on Christianity, The idea of Lucifer was likly a name give by the Greeco-Roman early Christians. Lucifer is self is word in Roman-Latin Lang. meaning morning star. While the Greeks called it the Hesperos, meaning in evening star. So their is the main reason why he is called the bright angel, Lucifer, but was that his name and was he an angel!!

    You know people say the Holy Ghost now it has been changed with Holy Sprite. Now, this is talking about Jibrail {AS} aka Gabriel. Who is an Angel, no dought about this, but angels have no free will. Because, Prayer is like food for the Angels from God. They serve and they obey. Also want to add does God lie?? answer, No! What ever he says it is.

    How can an Angel deny or reject God and his commandments if they are Angels?! Answer, simple they can't be Angels. you see If Lucifer was an Angel, he would never even conjure up any rejection to what God has told him. In Islam, we believe that Iblis was the name of the person that was casted way from the heaven, Why? God aka Allah {STW} told all the Angels to bow down and show respect to his creation of man, and All the Angels did,
    expect for the Jinns, Which are basically sprites, They are another race, they are not and I repeat not Angel or Men. They like human beings have free will, but, they have powers, that we humans do not have. And yes there are good and bad Jinns like humans and yes they are all going to be judged on the day of Judgment. For more information please, go to the links,
    sorry, that I have to leave before I finish, but
    I have to go work out :)
    last words, Also The Anti-Christ is not Iblis, though he is Al-Saytian (The Satan), Which is a horrific title given to man or jinn if they are evil, we belive , The Anti-Christ is Al-Dajjal, but I will talk about this only if someone post something about him, but we are talking about Iblis, the one who rejected God.

    sorry, once again I need to go work out. :D


    salaamulikum

    =====================================================

    The Arrogance of Satan 1/5
    (please watch all part of the series)
    YouTube - The Arrogance of Satan 1/5

    satan
    YouTube - satan

    Angels and Jinn - Imam Siraj Wahaj
    YouTube - Angels and Jinn - Imam Siraj Wahaj

    The Great Outcome of Shaytan's Trick
    YouTube - The Great Outcome of Shaytan's Trick

    =====================================================

    Concept of Djinn/Jinn/Ghosts/Genie/Demons/Satan in Islam

    Iblis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Islamic view of angels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Shaitan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    =======================================================
     
  16. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    By personal choice, hordes of angels joined Satan in his rebellion.—Re 12:7-9; Mt 25:41.
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    There is one argument ...

    ... if angels do not possess free will, that is cannot think for themselves, then they would be very inefficient messengers, because they would not be able to dialogue with the person to whom they transmit the message, but rather spout, somewhat parrot fashion, words they have learnt, but don't understand?

    Thomas
     
  18. Dondi

    Dondi Active Member

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    I think the term "freewill" has attached itself too much to the concept of morality. But I could decide of my own accord to go out and ride my bike and that would not be committing any kind of sin. I think as long as angels operate within the permissive will of God, that they expressing freewill. A hint of this is found in I Peter 1:12:

    "Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."

    Seems to me this suggests curiousity and intent on the part of angels. They are not autonomous beings.

    I would go so far as to say that this would be a similiar state that we as humans will find ourselves in heaven. Jesus hinted at this also in his dialog with the Sadduccees:

    "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." - Matthew 22:30

    Satan, who was Lucifer, the Star of the Morning, got too high on his perch, being the Archangel, and through willful action, fully knowing what it would irrevokably cost him, rose up against God and was thus cast down. My feeling is in what ever realm he resided in after his fall, he wasn't as evil, but rather in the progression of time, he became more and more evil.
     
  19. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Lucifer, first comes into light in most bibles.... 14th book of Isaiah... Oh old test? Funny how a LATIN name is in HEBREW manuscripting.... Is this book talking of Satan? Oh no? A fallen king of Babylon? Yes.... MAN changed, this into a story of a "fallen angel", Lucifer, (Latin translation; Bringer of Light.) Ironically.... the Prince of "darkness" lol.....

    And!!! What I love is the irony of the christians that call Satan, Lucifer... You do realise that is the same title given to jesus in 2ndpet 1:19 and Rev22:16... Right? What is going on in Job: 38:7?

    We could do that silly number game that Leo started on this.... jesus is Lucifer? So Lucifer is Satan? lol

    SO A=1x9 B=2x9 C=3x9 D=4x9.... And so on... lol

    JESUS = J(90) E(45) S(171) U(189) S(171) zomg!!! 666....

    MESSIAH = M(117) E(45) S(171) S(171) I(81) A(9) H(72) ZOMG!!! 666...
    (maybe it is more than just People "editing" the Hebrew texts!! No... It's just me playing silly b*ggers with numbers.....)

    Thought maybe interesting to look at these "versions" of your verse...

    Liber Isaiae: 14:12 Quomodo cecidisti de caelo, lucifer, fili aurorae?
    Deiectus es in terram, qui deiciebas gentes, ;)


    How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn!" The New American Standard Bible.

    "How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning!" The New Living Translation.

    "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn!" The Revised Standard Version.

    How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn!" The New Revised Standard Version

    "How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn!" Young's Literal Translation.

    "How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning!" American Standard (1901).

    "King of Babylon, morning star, you have fallen from heaven," New Century Version.

    "King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven!" The Good News Bible in Today's English Version.


    Will the real morning star, please stand up! Please stand up! Please stand up!
     
  20. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    you see, that's where you and i would disagree - i don't think the two can be separated. riding your bike is not a morally neutral act if:

    a) the place you choose to ride is wrong: on a busy road, across someone's pristine lawn, down a pedestrian street
    b) how you ride it: cutting people up, running over stuff, going the wrong way up streets, jumping lights
    c) associated acts: if you ride without a helmet and someone hits you in a car, you're more likely to be hurt, which causes them some degree of guilt because you didn't take care.

    i don't agree that there is such a thing as a morally neutral act, therefore it is impossible to separate an act of freewill from one with some kind of moral consequences. bear in mind that what may seem "good" or "evil" to us may look completely different on G!D's moral compass, hence theodicy.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     

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