Paradox and Religion

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dauer

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What role does paradox play in religion? Is it beneficial, harmful, or benign? What effect does it have on the individual, if any? Is there beauty in paradox or is it ugly? Does the quantity of paradoxes within a religion have a particular relation to anything about that religion? What about the quality of the paradoxes? Please use this as a stepping stone for instead of as a constricting format for discussion.

Dauer
 
Interesting question re to paradox and religion. Typical human consciousness seems to naturally perceive Life in dualistic terms: "truth" is this or that, them or us. Folks seem to either want to resolve their views into choosing one pole or the other of a duality or look for the unifying, synthesizing view. I suspect those religions which do less "polarizing" in their doctirnal thinking would have a bit easier time with paradox which always is Truth tweaking us with the other half of the duality of reality whenever we too comfortably settle for 1/2 of Mystery. Take care, Earl
 
Absolutely Earl. Paradox occurs only at a dualistic level of conciousness as you say. The problem goes back to the two basic ways that man gathers information. According to Capra, both Eastern and Western mysticism uses both to one degree or another, as scienctific and intuitive methods abound in most systems. As to whether or not paradox are beautiful or ugly? I would have to reiterate what Lao Tzu said: "Beautiful words are not true, True words are not beautiful" This sounds paradoxical because we are used to the beautiful and profound words of the great religious traditions. However on close examination we find that words like Beautiful, ugly good, bad etc. are all dualistic in nature and "fall short of the Glory of God" so to speak. Therefore, what sounds like paradox is indeed a unified truth instead.
 
I agree, Paladin. I think beyond beautiful and ugly, paradoxes are useful. They have the capacity to push us out of our regular mode of consciousness and cause us to meditate more on our assumptions about the world.

I'd say that paradoxes are, in themselves, not beneficial or harmful. It is what people do with them. Some people cannot believe that a paradox is given by God/Ultimate Reality/whatever, and so they spend a lot of their time trying to make sense of the non-sensical, proving that it isn't a paradox. Some people use the paradoxes or contradictions in a religion or sacred text to try to get others to lose faith. Some people just accept the paradoxes as valid, and then seek to understand them from outside their regular consciousness and assumptions. What is healthiest and most likely to result in our spiritual growth? Well, I have an idea, but others may well disagree...
 
I feel that paradoxes are beautiful puzzles begging to be solved. In the Torah, paradoxes do exist. Most paradoxes are just unwieldy children desiring of a firm hand and a wise mind to straighten their ways. Witness, for example, the paradox of the red heffer. Here G-d creates a seemingly impossible situation, the essence of this animal will make the pure impure or the impure pure. How is that possible? A truly great mind could use this paradox to extrapolate a truth that would transcend our world and meld the spirtual and the physical worlds together. To a person of a lesser mind, the red heffer is merely an impossibility.

A paradox is basically just a test, a challenge , for there can be no paradoxes in a universe of multiplicity. Thus a paradox, like beauty, is just in the mind of the beholder.
 
I agree with bananabrain and others who point out that paradox is actually essential for pushing past religiosity (is that a word?) and moving the heart mind and soul into something that is sacred and divine. A one-dimensional reading just kills Scripture for me. Explain away every paradox and what have you got? A lot of morality tales.

feeling blunt today,
lunamoth
 
dauer said:
What role does paradox play in religion? Is it beneficial, harmful, or benign? What effect does it have on the individual, if any? Is there beauty in paradox or is it ugly? Does the quantity of paradoxes within a religion have a particular relation to anything about that religion? What about the quality of the paradoxes? Please use this as a stepping stone for instead of as a constricting format for discussion.

Dauer
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I think that when we see an apparent paradox within religion we are actually missing something. A paradox is a signal to look deeper. Paradoxes in religion are really non-existent. God is not paradoxical, God is logical. We create paradoxes because we only brush the surface, truth is hidden underneath.
 
lunamoth said:
I agree with bananabrain and others who point out that paradox is actually essential for pushing past religiosity (is that a word?) and moving the heart mind and soul into something that is sacred and divine. A one-dimensional reading just kills Scripture for me. Explain away every paradox and what have you got? A lot of morality tales.

feeling blunt today,
lunamoth
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Interesting idea. So where does the darkness go when you turn on the light?
 
Paladin said:
However on close examination we find that words like Beautiful, ugly good, bad etc. are all dualistic in nature and "fall short of the Glory of God" so to speak. Therefore, what sounds like paradox is indeed a unified truth instead.
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Yes, this is what I mean. Duality is an illusion but one we are stuck with in this life nonetheless. Except perhaps when glimmers break through. Paradox is a window for these glimmers.

lunamoth
 
9Harmony said:
I think that when we see an apparent paradox within religion we are actually missing something. A paradox is a signal to look deeper. Paradoxes in religion are really non-existent. God is not paradoxical, God is logical. We create paradoxes because we only brush the surface, truth is hidden underneath.
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Hi Harmony :) .

Is Love logical?

peace,
lunamoth
 
lunamoth said:
Hi Harmony :) .

Is Love logical?

peace,
lunamoth
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lol! put me on the spot why doncha?

Yes! God's love is logical. It's unconditional. :) No matter who we are or what we do, God loves us all.

But what we do to love is often illogical, but that's just us.
 
9Harmony said:
lol! put me on the spot why doncha?

Yes! God's love is logical. It's unconditional. :) No matter who we are or what we do, God loves us all.

But what we do to love is often illogical, but that's just us.
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Sorry! And I agree with you, but in human terms love and logic are kind of a paradox. I mean, is it logical to love someone else as much as yourself? Is it logical to love God? And, a nightmare to me, what would the world look like if it ran purely on logic and reason. Dod-eat-dog and survival of the fittest in the worst connotations come to mind.

Justice and mercy.

Now, there's a grand paradox.

Justice in injustice and in justice grace. ;)

You do great on the spot.

peace,
lunamoth
 
lunamoth said:
Hi Harmony :) .

Is Love logical?

peace,
lunamoth
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love does seem to be the attitude/energy which unites any 2 disparate things. to quote Ranier Maria Rilke's "Letters to a Young Poet:"

"...here I feel there is no one anywhere who can answer for you those questions and feelings which, in their depths, have a life of their own; for even the most articulate people are unable to help, since what words point to is so very delicate, is almost unsayable. But even so, i think you will not have to remian without a solution if you trust in Things that are like the ones my eyes are now resting upon. If you trust in Nature, in the small Things that hardly anyone sees and that can so suddenly become huge, immeasurable; if you have this love for what is humble and try very simply, as someone who serves, to win the confidence of what seems poor, then eveything will become easier for you, more coherent and smoehow more reconciling, not in your conscious mind perhaps, which stays behind, astonished, but in your innermost awareness, awakeness, and knowledge...and I would like to beg you, dear Sir, as well as I can, to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves...don't search for the anwers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then
 
lunamoth said:
Hi Harmony :) .

Is Love logical?

peace,
lunamoth
Click to expand...
love does seem to be the attitude/energy which unites any 2 disparate things. to quote Ranier Maria Rilke's "Letters to a Young Poet:"

"...here I feel there is no one anywhere who can answer for you those questions and feelings which, in their depths, have a life of their own; for even the most articulate people are unable to help, since what words point to is so very delicate, is almost unsayable. But even so, i think you will not have to remian without a solution if you trust in Things that are like the ones my eyes are now resting upon. If you trust in Nature, in the small Things that hardly anyone sees and that can so suddenly become huge, immeasurable; if you have this love for what is humble and try very simply, as someone who serves, to win the confidence of what seems poor, then eveything will become easier for you, more coherent and smoehow more reconciling, not in your conscious mind perhaps, which stays behind, astonished, but in your innermost awareness, awakeness, and knowledge...and I would like to beg you, dear Sir, as well as I can, to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves...don't search for the anwers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then someday far in the future you will gradually without even noticing it live your way into the answer."

Take care, Earl
 
Sorry about the weird sequence of postings here-just as i was typing the reply up, my computer did wierd stuff. hope it wasn't too confusing!:) Earl
 
lunamoth said:
Sorry! And I agree with you, but in human terms love and logic are kind of a paradox. I mean, is it logical to love someone else as much as yourself? Is it logical to love God? And, a nightmare to me, what would the world look like if it ran purely on logic and reason. Dod-eat-dog and survival of the fittest in the worst connotations come to mind.
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Hi lunamoth, :)

Well yes, in human terms...

Give us any topic and at least one of us can create a paradox out of it. :D

It may not seem logical to love someone as much as ourselves or to love God, but I believe that it actually is. I believe the underlying truths are ultimately logical and practical, but we do not have access to the whole picture on this plane of existence, so we not always able to understand the logic behind it.

Logic and reason...again from a human perspective, is almost impossible to visualize in a completely positive vein. As each individual has different ideas of what is logical and reasonable. As noted by correspondence on forums like this, what is logical for one, is completely illogical to another. Alot of what we consider logical and reasonable is steeped in our own attachments to ideas, and concepts, whether or not they are based in truth.

lunamoth said:
Justice in injustice and in justice grace. ;)
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You must have seen this quote before...

"The wayfarer in this Valley seeth in the fashionings of the True One nothing save clear providence, ...He beholdeth justice in injustice, and in justice, grace. In ignorance he findeth many a knowledge hidden, and in knowledge a myriad wisdoms manifest." referring to the Valley of Knowledge from-The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys, by Bahá'u'lláh, pp. 12-13
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Have a wonderful evening!

Loving Greetings, Amy
 
9Harmony said:
Hi lunamoth, :)

Well yes, in human terms...

Give us any topic and at least one of us can create a paradox out of it. :D

It may not seem logical to love someone as much as ourselves or to love God, but I believe that it actually is. I believe the underlying truths are ultimately logical and practical, but we do not have access to the whole picture on this plane of existence, so we not always able to understand the logic behind it.

Logic and reason...again from a human perspective, is almost impossible to visualize in a completely positive vein. As each individual has different ideas of what is logical and reasonable. As noted by correspondence on forums like this, what is logical for one, is completely illogical to another. Alot of what we consider logical and reasonable is steeped in our own attachments to ideas, and concepts, whether or not they are based in truth.


You must have seen this quote before...
"The wayfarer in this Valley seeth in the fashionings of the True One nothing save clear providence, ...He beholdeth justice in injustice, and in justice, grace. In ignorance he findeth many a knowledge hidden, and in knowledge a myriad wisdoms manifest." referring to the Valley of Knowledge from-The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys, by Bahá'u'lláh, pp. 12-13


Have a wonderful evening!

Loving Greetings, Amy
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Hi Amy,

I agree with you again. It's just that you seemed to imply in your first post that we have no need for paradox, or that it has no place in religion. My point is that paradox is a rich part of religion and the beautiful quote from the mystic path of Baha'u'llah's Seven Valleys is a perfect example of this. Logic fails us in things spiritual, after a point.

peace,
lunamoth
 
lunamoth said:
Hi Amy,

I agree with you again. It's just that you seemed to imply in your first post that we have no need for paradox, or that it has no place in religion. My point is that paradox is a rich part of religion and the beautiful quote from the mystic path of Baha'u'llah's Seven Valleys is a perfect example of this. Logic fails us in things spiritual, after a point.

peace,
lunamoth
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I see, I worded that first post poorly. glad to see we're on the same page. :)
If I haven't told you before, I greatly enjoy reading your posts, you have a wonderfully gentle way of putting things.
 
lunamoth said:
Hi Amy,

I agree with you again. It's just that you seemed to imply in your first post that we have no need for paradox, or that it has no place in religion. My point is that paradox is a rich part of religion and the beautiful quote from the mystic path of Baha'u'llah's Seven Valleys is a perfect example of this. Logic fails us in things spiritual, after a point.

peace,
lunamoth
Click to expand...
Hi Lunamoth,

Your desire for paradox in your spiritual model is noteworthy, could it be because it lends itself so well to poetry? Either way, no one including myself should ever try to take that away, that wouldn't be very loving.
I submit however that we have paradox because of logic rather than inspite of it. The fact that we see a conflict within a thing because it seems to condradict itself, yet does it remain whole, offends our sense of logic. The spiritual person picks up on the beautiful interplay of spirit upon itself which on the outer looks to condradict itself, but within, is rich in spiritual truth.

Is this what you mean?

Peace
 
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