If not Jesus, then who?

Awaiting_the_fifth said:
Peace,

I have been reading some other threads about how Jews do not accept that Jesus was the Messiah. Can I just say that I accept this 100%, Im not recruiting Jews for Jesus or anything.

I was wondering though, what do Jews mean when they say messiah? Who will he be? What is his purpose? When is he expected etc.

One thing I have heard (from the discovery channel so probably not too reliable) is that the messiah is to be a warlike leader who would free the Jews. But of course, the Jews are free today. What's that about? Please feel free to correct me here.

I would like to stress that I mean no offense to the Jewish religion, but I was raised a Catholic and was taught that Jesus was the messiah, I would like to hear the other side of the argument.
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the jewish messiah, will be a human being who will have to fullfill the following criteria to be considered the jewish messiah
he will ,be a direct male biological decendent of king david through his son sollomon (genesis49 10 & issiah 11 1)
he will rebuild the temple in jerusalem ( ezekiel 37 26-28)
he will gather all the exiled jews back to israel (issaiah 43 5-6)
he will usher in world peace(isaiah 2 4)
he will spread universal knowladge of the one true G-D (zecheriah 14 9 )
who ever fails to fullfill this criteria is not the jewish messiah
jesus didnt fulfill this criteria so he is not the jewish messiah as prophosised in hebrew scripture
 
Sir,
Excuse me please.
I understand that it was written in the scriptures that before arrival of Messiah or Moshiach prophet Elijah will descend from heavens.
I find mention of Elijah in the Christian OT with following reference:-

New International Version (NIV)

1 When the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. (2 Kings 2:2)

11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. (2 Kings 2:11)



5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse." (Malachi 4:5 or in some versions 3:24”



Has it also been mentioned in the Jewish Torah or in some other Jewish scriptures? Please give its reference with quotations of the verses for my information. Thanks

Yours

inhumility
 
inhumility said:
Sir,

1 When the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. (2 Kings 2:2)

inhumility
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"in a whirlwind" .... there is that spiralling energy I was talking about .... it always spirals like the DNA double helix ..... the shaman use the symbol of a rope (spiralling fibers) .... the sufi spins ..... on the caudecus (medical symbol) the snakes wrap around the staff .... I look at the symbols and then anwers the question, if not Jesus, then who? All of us ..... that is in my view the second coming, when we remember who we were we will remember who we are and our sovereignty will be returned .... if can never be taken away again unless we chose to give it away ..... how to harness the inner spiralling energy is explained to us in symbols and allegories and metaphors and parables ..... the mystics understood this but were banned and burned as heretics .... they knew however where to go, underground or within themselves ..... the world is changing and so must we if we are to survive another seven generations ..... this is an important question and all of the religions and beliefs represented on this forum have the answer and the directions ..... if not Jesus, then who? he hawai'i au, poh
 
Sir

I have read the Christian Bible and not the Jewish Bible, so in my last post I quoted some verses from the Christian Old Testament and I wanted to know narration of the same from the Jewish Bible. I have now found out reference and wording of one verse from the Jewish Bible.

I have also studied carefully information available on http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm as advised.

I also found out a write up titled:-

"Messiah :The Criteria

Judge for yourself:
Did Jesus fulfill ALL these criteria?
​
The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah".

First of all, he must be Jewish.

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah.

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon.

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel.

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace.

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments.

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d.

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah."

A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.

Certainly NOT Jesus." (also mentioned by star light)

(The write up consists of an elaborate detail as to how according to Jewish People the above signs are not fulfilled in Jesus. I have abbreviated the write up and kept the signs narrated only).

I have also read an account of several other Jewish claimants of this office who remained unsuccessful and hence rejected by the Jewish people.

But one important sign which has been mentioned in the Jewish Bible and the Christian Bible is missing in the above list i.e. descending of the prophet Elijah from the heavens to earth before arrival of the Messiah or Moshiach.The verse is :-

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of God.
Hineh anochi shole'ach lachem et Eliyah hanavi lifney bo yom Adonay hagadol vehanora.(Festivals(3:23)-Shabat HaGadol) . “Christians may refer to Malachi 4:5 or in some versions 3:24.”

The Jewish people had not been accepting any claimants of the office of Moshiach even from amongst their own people, and waiting for his success or otherwise for rejecting him instead of accepting and supporting the truthful claimant .They were just to ask the question; has Elijah descended from the heavens before your arrival?

This would have saved them from a continuous wait position at least. The Jewish People are not to judge the Moshiach; Moshiach is to judge them according to the tradition.

The Jewish people of the time of Jesus knew the importance of this question and asked it, and a reply was given by Jesus, that should be referred to.

The Jewish people, undoubtedly, were waiting for a Messiah to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as a " Messiah” and the present day Christians put before the Jewish people a super natural deity or God which is not acceptable to the Jewish people alright. Understandable

The thread is interesting.

Thanks

inhumility
 
Can I ask a somewhat relative question?

Do the Jewish people think Jesus was a Jew? Is that by faith or by anncestry?

Thanks...

Oh and just a little FYI (Just an FYI not a debate)
Muslims think that Muhammad (S) is the Messaiah. He was an Arab and not Jewish and Muslims think that this was the reason the Jewish people rejected his Message. They still wanted the Messiah to come from amongst them.

Jewish people who accepted Islam at the times of Muhammad thought that he was the last prophet they were promised in their books albiet not being Jewish himself.

No offence intended. Just thought to shed some "external" light on the concept.
 
Iyad,

There is no official position of Judaism on whether or not Jesus was Jewish if he existed. But my personal guess is that those Jews who think Jesus existed also think he was Jewish. There's no way to be Jewish by faith alone. Judaism is determined by ancestry.

I thought Muslims think Jesus is Masikh.

There is actually nothing in Judaism that says there cannot be non-Jewish prophets. But the Moshiach is ben David, descendant of David. But the fact is that the Jews rejected muhammad. That's why he changed the direction of prayer away from Jerusalem for his followers. He had to preach to non-Jews when the Jews rejected him.

Dauer
 
First of all, he must be Jewish.

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah.

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon.
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According to our book of Revelation He was Jewish, from Judah and root of David
[size=+2]Matthew 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham: [/size]

Reve 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."
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He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel.
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 Yes, through His Holy Spirit [Pentecost]. But first wrath has to come on Israel in which the remnant which are saved will once again attempt to keep the OC Mt Sinai [for the 4th time] Law/Torah.
ezekiel 22:17 The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 18 "Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to Me; they [are] all bronze, tin, iron, and lead, in the midst of a furnace; they have become dross from silver. 19 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. 20 '[As men] gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt [it;] so I will gather [you] in My anger and in My fury, and I will leave [you there] and melt you.

Malachi 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
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He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.
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Do you mean Ezekiel's temple :confused:
Daniel 9:25 and you shall know and you shall be intelligent/wise[#07919] from going forth of [a ] word to turn back/return [#07725] and to build up Jerusalem untill an annointed one[#04899], a prince/ruler [#05057], 7 7's, and sevens, 60 and 2, she shall return and she is built broad place/square and sharp/gold/diligent and in distress/constraint of the times.

I assumed this was the first century temple that God had destroyed? Israel was the only one with a "covenant" of blessings and curses as far as I know. I don't know if this is Jesus or a "false High Priest"?

Daniel 11:22 "With the force of a flood they shall be swept away from before him and be broken, and also a prince [#5057] of a covenant.
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What does the book of Mathew or Revelation have to do with Judaism?

And what about this Son of David concept, the whole virgin birth, Joespeph not the father. I'm now reading that he was the father, not God, and that somehow was just not concieved with original sin??

Is that now the consensus, because if Joeseph wasn't the father than Jesus is not of the house of David except by adoption, not by geneology/dna.
 
ezekiel 22:17 The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 18 "Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to Me; they [are] all bronze, tin, iron, and lead, in the midst of a furnace; they have become dross from silver. 19 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. 20 '[As men] gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt [it;] so I will gather [you] in My anger and in My fury, and I will leave [you there] and melt you.

Malachi 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
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wil said:
What does the book of Mathew or Revelation have to do with Judaism?

And what about this Son of David concept, the whole virgin birth, Joespeph not the father. I'm now reading that he was the father, not God, and that somehow was just not concieved with original sin??

Is that now the consensus, because if Joeseph wasn't the father than Jesus is not of the house of David except by adoption, not by geneology/dna.
Click to expand...
The book of Daniel has everything to do with the book of revelation as it is the Consummaton of Israel/Judah and bringing both Nations together under One Lord and King. Why do you think it mentions 12 tribes [both nations of Israel/Judah]?

Doesn't Daniel 12 mention only an "Elect Remnant" being saved out of Israel upon the Day of the Lord/Gog-Magog?

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

Reve 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."

Reve 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred [and] forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel [were] sealed:
 
A- I feel like an intruder...discussing Christ in the Judaism area...for me this area is great to read and learn from, as those of the Jewish faith discuss the intracies of their faith. And also a great place to pose questions about Judaism....however a discussion of the new testament seem inappropriate, is this just me?

B- I've reposted my questions and the answer as the answer has nothing to do with the questions, but the questions came up from my trepidation elicited above.

C- I'm confused an apologize for such.

Originally Posted by wil
What does the book of Mathew or Revelation have to do with Judaism?

And what about this Son of David concept, the whole virgin birth, Joespeph not the father. I'm now reading that he was the father, not God, and that somehow was just not concieved with original sin??

Is that now the consensus, because if Joeseph wasn't the father than Jesus is not of the house of David except by adoption, not by geneology/dna.
Click to expand...
response by IXA
The book of Daniel has everything to do with the book of revelation as it is the Consummaton of Israel/Judah and bringing both Nations together under One Lord and King. Why do you think it mentions 12 tribes [both nations of Israel/Judah]?

Doesn't Daniel 12 mention only an "Elect Remnant" being saved out of Israel upon the Day of the Lord/Gog-Magog?
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A- I feel like an intruder...discussing Christ in the Judaism area...for me this area is great to read and learn from, as those of the Jewish faith discuss the intracies of their faith. And also a great place to pose questions about Judaism....however a discussion of the new testament seem inappropriate, is this just me?

B- I've reposted my questions and the answer as the answer has nothing to do with the questions, but the questions came up from my trepidation elicited above.
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Isn't judaism still waiting on a messiah or 2 to come and help them understand their Torah better [instead of relying on the Talmud]?

I myself cannot prove outside the Bible that Jesus or any of those in the OT actually walked the earth.
Daniel 11 and 12 concerns Daniel's people, as does the book of revelation and the Day of the Lord prophecies, so why should I be concerned whether the jewish religion believes Christ even existed or not [though Islam does believe he was a "Great Prophet", and that is a paradox in itself, as how can they prove Jesus existed if the jewish religion can't?
Sorry I interrupted, and I pray the jewish religion's messiah comes soon for them, whether physically or in the Spirit, as "Christ" came to me. Peace and Love to you and yours. Shalom
Steve

[size=+2]Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a NATION, [Even] to that time. And at that time Your People shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

[/size] Reve 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.[size=+2] [/size]

Revelation 18 "I [am] He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death........... 18 " And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, ' These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:
 
pohaikawahine said:
allow me to share another perspective on this question "if not Jesus, then who?"
perhaps the answer is "all of us", we are all prophets .... since I believe that the process of visions and revelations exists within each of us (there are no exceptions) I would say "when we remember who we were, we will know who we are, and our freedom will return" .... I believe that all ancient religions and traditions are linked through an ancient "path or line of wisdom" .... the Hopi, native american, have a saying "we are the one's we've been waiting for" .... one might say "we are all buddhas", we are all prophets,we are all evolving to a higher status as human beings .... the problem may have been in the interpretation of ancient texts .... we keep looking outside of ourselves for the "savior" and in fact, we need to save ourselves by looking inward .... I believe that we are all the 'chosen ones' when return to the ancient path of knowledge and are able to open that place in the center of our brains where the three become One... it is not about "good" and "evil", but it is about a return to the perfect balance .... is it possible to have heaven on earth .... absolutely, when we reconnect that ancient path or way .... all paths lead to the mountaintop and when we get there we see the same moon .... I read the web site that you referenced bananabrain on the moshiach and believe the criteria is correct, especially the one "he will be a human being,not a god, demi-god or othe supernatural being" ...and it takes a great warrior to walk this path.... when the time is right each of us has the capability ...and it will take place in the promised land .... just my thoughts to share .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine
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very interesting. It is possible heaven on earth ,when we reconnect that ancient path or way .
 
" ye shall know the truth ,and TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE. " This is ancient Egyptian saying , Jesus or Romans ,whoever said or wrote , borrowed it ,from Egyptians.
 
InChristAlways said:
Isn't judaism still waiting on a messiah or 2 to come and help them understand their Torah better [instead of relying on the Talmud]?

I myself cannot prove outside the Bible that Jesus or any of those in the OT actually walked the earth.
Daniel 11 and 12 concerns Daniel's people, as does the book of revelation and the Day of the Lord prophecies, so why should I be concerned whether the jewish religion believes Christ even existed or not [though Islam does believe he was a "Great Prophet", and that is a paradox in itself, as how can they prove Jesus existed if the jewish religion can't?
Sorry I interrupted, and I pray the jewish religion's messiah comes soon for them, whether physically or in the Spirit, as "Christ" came to me. Peace and Love to you and yours. Shalom
Steve

[SIZE=+2]Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a NATION, [Even] to that time. And at that time Your People shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

[/SIZE]Reve 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.

Revelation 18 "I [am] He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death........... 18 " And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, ' These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:
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Not all Jews believe as I do, that the Messiah is not an individual but the People of Israel; the Jewish People themselves. When we speak of a coming or return of the Messiah, etimologically, we refer to the context of Ezekiel 37:12. A return from exile to the Land of Israel. Therefore, the Messiah has return three times already IMHO. The third time is still in process, although the third Commowealth was organized in 1948. The first time was from Egypt back to the Land of Canaan. The second time was from Babylon back to the Land of Israel, and the third time is happening at the present time. I woke up to the call to return about 20 years ago.
Ben
 
yes,it is an 11 year old thread - but it is an always present question... according to the Mayan calendar, we may find out this year...2012...and the other question(s) which comes first, the return of the mosiach, the regathering, or the rebuilding of the 3rd temple .... maybe they will all take place at the same time....personally I believe that they will all take place at the same time...I think this is going to be a good year!! He Hawai'i Au, poh
 
Oh ni how Sifu.
Good Morning Teacher.
Jai Guru Deva.

This is an old question.
What to do ... when Gurudev is gone?

There is Guru Vani & Guru Vapu.

The Gurus presence & the Guru's teachings.

I must point out that Lord Jesus Christ emparted a "Mantra".

******************************
How are ya gonna have your pudding, if you haven't chanted your Rosary?!!
******************************

Jesus Christ gave the "Lord's Prayer" ---this is the answer to:
Q "If not Jesus, then who?"

A "The Lord's Prayer"*

*IMO the best versions were:

(Christ c.30AD - 1:00 - Apple Records 1968 - Original Studio Version)
(See Frank Sinatra's and Elvis's Christmas Versions too)
 
bhaktajan said:
Oh ni how Sifu.
Good Morning Teacher.
Jai Guru Deva.

This is an old question.
What to do ... when Gurudev is gone?

There is Guru Vani & Guru Vapu.

The Gurus presence & the Guru's teachings.

I must point out that Lord Jesus Christ emparted a "Mantra".

******************************
How are ya gonna have your pudding, if you haven't chanted your Rosary?!!
******************************

Jesus Christ gave the "Lord's Prayer" ---this is the answer to:
Q "If not Jesus, then who?"

A "The Lord's Prayer"*

*IMO the best versions were:

(Christ c.30AD - 1:00 - Apple Records 1968 - Original Studio Version)
(See Frank Sinatra's and Elvis's Christmas Versions too)
Click to expand...

I don't think the question should be then who but rather what? Everyone for centuries have been looking for the answers to immortality ect. The truth is its been there all along and it seems that the thing is that nonacceptance of it is the issue. Men like Plato made mention of it, the bible mentions it in the creation account. Every text talks about male and female union.. How two are also one as well as three and that this is a complete complex entity and that is how human beings were before the fall. Of course the bodies were as they are now but two were also one as well as three unlike they are now and only reflected in the state of marriage. The texts talk about end time prophecy and marriage. Everyone tries to come up with this fantasy about how as individuals they are complete and can live forever......poppycock!!!!! Each is half of a whole and needs to be brought back into union with its opposite. The splitting of the oneness of the two- soul(emotions) spirit(psychological) and bodies caused a sealing away of the soul and spirit from the bodies and caused mortality. There is a place where each is still one with its opposite that cannot be split which is the union force. Prior to the fall the bodies looked literally alike. The male and female were literally like twins , exact mirror images of each other each being half of the whole entity. Because of the fall its not that way anymore. The bodies will be same but also different. This is why human conception, anytime identical twins are born are same sex. This is because they are not opposites, each half of the whole, and because of the fall. Even unidentical twins are not mates of course each is still only halves that are not opposites that are not mates. Hitler did experiments during wwii not understanding these things. True opposites will have a number that is literally opposite. Twins born from the same mother NEVER have that they have near identical dna but NOT opposite number. The world is quickly progressing. It will be great when one day everyone is complete again. Mankind is becoming heterosapien(heter-wise) which is this knowledge. Man already knew that the above pairs were not opposites so he was homosapien. So true opposites will have different (Homo) dna but opposite number (Hetero)=tna
 
pohaikawahine said:
yes,it is an 11 year old thread - but it is an always present question... according to the Mayan calendar, we may find out this year...2012...and the other question(s) which comes first, the return of the mosiach, the regathering, or the rebuilding of the 3rd temple .... maybe they will all take place at the same time....personally I believe that they will all take place at the same time...I think this is going to be a good year!! He Hawai'i Au, poh
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Within the Biblical context, the concept of a returning Messiah is a reference to the return of the Jews from the Diaspora. When taken into exile, usually, only the influencial people are expelled out of the Land of Israel and the common people, the agrarian ones stay behind to keep the hope that the main body will one day return. But then, how to fit the word Messiah? If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one. The anointed one is a definition for the Messiah. Therefore, the Jewish People.
 
Jews like followers of all organised religions are misguided and wrong. There is NO god to follow. One does not exist. The Old testament is full of lies and inaccuracies. The Bible was dreamt up by those in power to keep the rest of humanity in their place.Typically promising us jam tommorrow if we behave. Utter bunkum.
Wake up and smell the coffee
 
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