Where is the Satainist section?

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Of course, I want attention just like anyone. What I'm curious about is the line that divides genuine freedom of personal expression from simple attention getting behavior. Where does the one thing stop and the other begin? I'm being different because that's just the way I am, or I'm trying to establish a unique identity for myself by being ostentatiously different so people will notice?

Chris
 

path_of_one

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I think it's a fuzzy line, and not one most people can distinguish, since they don't know the real motivations.

For example, if I dressed however I wanted to, I would generally dress in neo-Victorian. Mostly black, but also some ivory, red, etc. Not because I want to stand out, but because I genuinely love Victorian clothing and I think we look like slobs today by comparison. There are also all kinds of sensory reasons Victorian clothing feels good- for example, corsets are supportive and ensure good posture, and I find them really comfy so long as they aren't done up too tight, and it's a great feeling at the end of a day when you get out of one.

Most of the time, I tone down how I would dress because it is too different. I do this in order to blend in for a variety of reasons- for work, certainly, but also because I don't want people to find me so odd on a regular basis that they don't communicate with me. So in a way, I'm toning down "the real me" to a version that allows for more communication. More attention, in a way. Or maybe different attention.

Now, to people who don't know me, they may think when I do have an occasional night out and really go all-out with my clothing to what *I* like best, that I am doing it for the attention. Well, I suppose in some small way I am, because I very much like the attention I get from my husband. :p And the compliments I get on the outfits I put together are nice, too. But mostly, it's just that I'm finally succumbing to a night of being me. Me without worrying about what is office-appropriate, what will blend in enough, what won't offend anyone, and what will challenge stereotypes without reinforcing them. I'm just looking in the mirror going, "I really like black fancy stuff. That feels me-ish."

It's an insider vs. outsider perspective. No doubt, if someone sees me with the black hair, tattoo, Victorian clothing, and whatnot, they think it's for the attention. But if I do get attention, which I'm fine with, it is just a secondary benefit as I see it. It might feel good, but it's not why I'm doing it. There have been plenty of times I've dressed up to stay at home, or just to go to friends who could care less and have seen me like this dozens of times anyway. In my case, it was a long slog to get to where I was unconcerned enough about negative attention that I finally started making my body express what I felt was "the real me."

Of course, for this reason, I also don't try to "be goth." If I'm in the rare mood for khakis and a green sweater, I'm wearing it. When I go to the barn, you can bet I wear sensible clothing. I forego white makeup because it's not a look I enjoy and it clogs pores anyway. :p Still, if you saw me on the street, would you know any of these things? Nope. Which is one of the reasons I tone it down. I'm aware of people's categories and I'd like to represent myself as honestly as I can- in the gray area between them- even if this means simultaneously not being exactly who I feel I am. Not sure if that last sentence makes sense... but hopefully you get the idea. Sometimes to express who you are ideologically, you have to do something a bit different from expressing who you are aesthetically.
 

juantoo3

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Kindest Regards, Noctuary!

Thank you for your reply!
I want to be the head of my own self and consious. I want to be my own leader. I want to live free of guilt placed on me to enslave me so to speak. When I choose to do something I want it to be on my merits and reasoning. Not because I am 'supposed' to. I want to be inviting, alluring, tempting, brave and curious. Satan, for me, represents those things. As for shock value? I am an extreme woman. I have tattoos, look the way I look, speak the way I speak, because I have made myself into the being I have wanted to be. There is a reason Medusa is on me. You fear her, but you cannot look away.

In short: I like to stand out, stand up, stand apart and stand above. Sue me:p

A lot of what you say here I agree with, and guide myself by, at least by my interpretation of the same words. I am the head of my own self, and I choose the path and Leader I wish to follow. I can't say I live guilt free, I have my regrets over things I might have or could have done differently. I do understand about using guilt to enslave; mom's are great at that, aren't they? I guess I do what I am "supposed" to because I choose to, and I choose to because I have learned in some instances the hard way the consequence of not doing so. I am brave and curious. I represent those values I prefer, I am the me I have created. What I was born with was G-d's gift to me, what I have done with it is my gift to G-d, or at least that's how I see it. I am not extreme, I have no tatoos (thought about it once, many moons ago), I really don't relish inordinate attention. I value praise for my efforts as much as anybody, but I have no desire to create an outward image that draws attention. Jeans, an old t-shirt and bare foot is my "me" style, when I'm not running around half (or more) naked. But this is not the image I wish to share with others, not that I feel I need to hide, but because it may send the wrong message. We do tend to judge books by their covers, it's a natural trait.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, I promise it is not meant to be preachy. I think what I am trying to say is that we do share some similarities in our philosophies, and where we differ is really insignificant. Depending on the application of those philosophies. If I were to use the Bible to justify eating babies too :p (thought I wasn't paying attention?), then I would have some "bad karma" to deal with and consequences to face, just like anybody else. In my humble opinion, it's not about "supposed" to, it's about doing right because it's right. I think we all know what is right, somehow.
 

juantoo3

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Kindest Regards, Path!

Thanks for this!
I think his (Lavey's) religion is not much like other nature religions, in part because it is atheistic.

Perhaps Noctuary can elaborate, but having studied Druidry and Wicca more, but having read a bit of Lavey's work and interviews, his religion did seem distinctive, certainly more distinctive than the differences between Druidry and Wicca.

OK.

I know a few really shy people... :rolleyes:
I used to be very shy as a kid. Now I'm just a reformed pragmatic lone wolf who still longs to roam the range solo but who sees the value in others' company.

Anyhoo, what is funny is that you don't sound much different from me. Or many of the people I know. Except for the Satan as a symbol part and the atheism.
One's mileage may vary? :D

I find almost no one extreme, but then I grew up in southern California in a family of socialists, punks, and flower children. LOL So having tattoos and challenging authority is the norm and encouraged in my family, rather than the exception.
Ah, so you're the family that lived next door, the one's my dad tried to drown out with Merle Haggard and Johnny Cash music? Like, totally gnarly.

I just don't understand the need for extreme. It's like, if everybody is being extreme, then all of you are simply conforming to a different standard...but you are still conforming. (I don't mean to sound accusative.) It's just another clique. I can't say I don't get the clique thing, I do. All of us need some attention some of the time. But I don't get the overwhelming desire to mold myself to a specific image to fit in with some or other clique. Either people like me how I am, or I'm not that worried about them if they don't. I do what I can to be likable, but I won't go out of my way if I am not liked. It's not that big of a deal to me. I could care less about attention in this context.

As for greater society, I usually am going for the "just odd enough" look. That is, I want to stand out enough for people to confront their stereotypes and have to wonder about their own categories. Is she goth? Is she Christian? Is she Pagan? What is going on?
That's cool. Not what I would choose, but then I am more of a chameleon. My goal is to purposely blend in. Call it stealth, call it camoflage, call it covert operation if you like, shy it ain't. It is every bit as purposeful as dressing for attention. I hide in plain sight, deliberately. It is a part of my militia mindset that I have not surrendered.

The struggle I have is the "guy that snapped" and went on a spree...the quiet guy, great neighbor, spent a lot of time in his own mind...who snapped one day and killed 25 people before turning his AK on himself. That's the guy in me I worry about. That's why I need people, to get me out of my mind, even though I am *very* comfortable there.

The greatest compliment I have ever had was from one of my students. Toward the end of one of my anthro courses we were doing Q&A and he said "You're not American or anything, are you?" To which I basically said, "Huh?" And he replied, "You don't get in groups. You're just you, and you see all humanity as your group." That's about what I'm going for...
Cool!
 

path_of_one

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Best to you, too 123! :) (Shorthand) I'll respond in blue- faster than typing in all the notations for quotes. I can try to elaborate on the differences between Satanism and other Nature religions if you want, but I think the basic distinction of atheism vs. theism is one of the biggest. Also, the other nature religions typically avoid Satan all together as both symbol and personal being, because he is a Christian/Jewish/Islam based character, and most of them are going for non-Christian/Jewish/Islam references.

Further, Satanism tends to focus on the self and what gets you what you want, as opposed to focusing on service to society/the Earth/others. So, it is more akin to just plain magic to me than to any of the Earth-based religions. Hope that helps some. Most Wiccans and Druids are staunchly against the ego-centrism of Satanism and try to distance themselves from being associated in any way with it, but then that may also be because of its negative associations for the broader society.

I used to be very shy as a kid. Now I'm just a reformed pragmatic lone wolf who still longs to roam the range solo but who sees the value in others' company.

Not that different from me. Except I was never shy. I just like being alone a lot of the time.

Ah, so you're the family that lived next door, the one's my dad tried to drown out with Merle Haggard and Johnny Cash music? Like, totally gnarly.

LOL, actually, my dad is really into bluegrass aside from rock. And my husband is fairly punk, but adores Johnny Cash. I like Johnny Cash too; my muscial tastes are very eclectic.

I just don't understand the need for extreme. It's like, if everybody is being extreme, then all of you are simply conforming to a different standard...but you are still conforming. (I don't mean to sound accusative.)

That's why it's all about personal motivation. My family doesn't *try* to be extreme, and they don't feel that they are. They just do and think what they want, and other people label them extreme. Inevitably, everyone will appear to conform to something, because it's pretty hard to come up with anything genuinely new. After all, we've had thousands of years of people coming up with stuff, so there's nothing new under the sun. For some of us, it's not about being a part of a group, it's just about doing what feels most like "me." Both my husband and I generally have our tattoos covered in public. It wasn't something either of us did for attention and "extremism" (which it isn't anyway in our generation, something like half the people I meet have them). All of our tattoos hold deep meaning- it's about marking the outside with what is on the inside, claiming the body as one's own.

It's just another clique. I can't say I don't get the clique thing, I do. All of us need some attention some of the time. But I don't get the overwhelming desire to mold myself to a specific image to fit in with some or other clique.

Me neither. Neither the "extreme" folks or the "normal" ones. Other people make their judgments, but I don't actually enjoy being in groups much to begin with (I'm rather introverted) so in reality I'm happiest just with family and a few close friends.

Either people like me how I am, or I'm not that worried about them if they don't. I do what I can to be likable, but I won't go out of my way if I am not liked. It's not that big of a deal to me. I could care less about attention in this context.

Yep, me too. If people don't like who I am, that's all right. I do what I can to be polite, gentle, kind... but not likable. If that makes sense. I care about people, I listen to them, I try to help when I can, I'm pretty easy going and I don't force my ideas on folks. If they can't forgive tattoos and black hair and the occasional funky outfit, that's their problem.

That's cool. Not what I would choose, but then I am more of a chameleon. My goal is to purposely blend in. Call it stealth, call it camoflage, call it covert operation if you like, shy it ain't. It is every bit as purposeful as dressing for attention. I hide in plain sight, deliberately. It is a part of my militia mindset that I have not surrendered.

That's interesting. My mother calls me the chameleon, because I'm really good at it. I can also pick up local dialects, mannerisms, etc. within days. It serves me well for work, and it makes nearly everyone comfortable if they meet me when I'm in that mode. But on my own time, I'm me and unapologetially so. And I still blend it as best I can with what I know others' expectations to be (I have a lot of black and red business suits). I don't really feel any affection for or interest in ordinary middle class American life, so I only try to blend in as much as I need to for people to feel OK.

And my ideology and actions are in some ways more threatening to people than anything "extreme" on the outside. You should see the shock when I tell people I don't watch TV (well, sometimes Nova or the travel channel, but no regular shows). Or that I buy most of my clothing used or from a small select group of manufacturers that I know aren't violating labor rights in sweatshops. Or that I don't care about the size of someone's house, what kind of car they drive, etc. People find that more of a stumbling block than how I look. Unfortunately, quite a few people take it to be patronizing or condescending. But it isn't. It is just being honest.

The struggle I have is the "guy that snapped" and went on a spree...the quiet guy, great neighbor, spent a lot of time in his own mind...who snapped one day and killed 25 people before turning his AK on himself. That's the guy in me I worry about. That's why I need people, to get me out of my mind, even though I am *very* comfortable there.

Eek! :eek: Everyone needs people because it is part of being human. We're social critters, even us introverted types. I need to get out occasionally and listen to loud music with others, or work toward some common cause, or see art exhibits, mostly to remind myself that the world isn't the really crappy place that the media and many religions say that it is. It's filled with mostly nice people and some of them are really quite interesting.
 
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I too wish to fly under the radar. I'm kind of a minimalist. I like to dress very plainly. I refuse to wear anyone's branding. If they want me to walk around like a billboard for Nike or Tommy whatever his name is I think they should pay me and provide the apparel for free. I like nice things, but I want to have as few of them as I can possibly get away with. Quality, not quantity kind of thing.

I didn't mean to pick on you Noctuary, just wanted to provoke conversation. I like tattoos too!

Chris
 

noctuary

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I too wish to fly under the radar. I'm kind of a minimalist. I like to dress very plainly. I refuse to wear anyone's branding. If they want me to walk around like a billboard for Nike or Tommy whatever his name is I think they should pay me and provide the apparel for free. I like nice things, but I want to have as few of them as I can possibly get away with. Quality, not quantity kind of thing.

I didn't mean to pick on you Noctuary, just wanted to provoke conversation. I like tattoos too!

Chris
I am all for being questioned and challenged by people. I enjoy it. I don't enjoy people being disrespectful of my chosen belief system as I am not of theirs. I want to make a big distinction here. I am not some anti theist. I don't HATE religion. I just hate religious ignorant people. There is a big difference that has more to do with a mouth babbling then an ear hearing. And with that I am off to go visit my mom. I need to give her her allowance and pay her rent at the old people's home. :)
 

path_of_one

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I too wish to fly under the radar. I'm kind of a minimalist. I like to dress very plainly. I refuse to wear anyone's branding. If they want me to walk around like a billboard for Nike or Tommy whatever his name is I think they should pay me and provide the apparel for free.

I'm not a minimalist, but I also refuse to wear branding. I feel similarly- if I'm going to be a marketing ploy for them, I should get paid.
 

juantoo3

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Kindest Regards, Path!

Thank you for your response!
I can try to elaborate on the differences between Satanism and other Nature religions if you want, but I think the basic distinction of atheism vs. theism is one of the biggest. Also, the other nature religions typically avoid Satan all together as both symbol and personal being, because he is a Christian/Jewish/Islam based character, and most of them are going for non-Christian/Jewish/Islam references.

Further, Satanism tends to focus on the self and what gets you what you want, as opposed to focusing on service to society/the Earth/others. So, it is more akin to just plain magic to me than to any of the Earth-based religions. Hope that helps some. Most Wiccans and Druids are staunchly against the ego-centrism of Satanism and try to distance themselves from being associated in any way with it, but then that may also be because of its negative associations for the broader society.
Seems to me I heard explained once before, pre-CR, about the self "focus" in Satanism. I guess I just didn't make the connection (or disconnection rather) compared to earth religions. I'm only ever so slightly more familiar with them, and magic is an academic thing to me. I am aware of it, but I do not overtly and knowingly practice it, and there is a bit of a religiously indoctrinated hedge against it within my faith walk. I tend to skirt the edges on the subject, primarily out of my own ignorance.

LOL, actually, my dad is really into bluegrass aside from rock. And my husband is fairly punk, but adores Johnny Cash. I like Johnny Cash too; my muscial tastes are very eclectic.
Well, I know there's a lot of new found converts to Johnny Cash after he and his loving wife passed away in the last couple of years, combined with the Joaquin Phoenix movie last year. I'm not pointing any fingers, just making an observation. Haven't seen the movie yet, and not really interested in doing so, although I saw it got an Oscar nod. I vicariously witnessed the running commentary play by play. Dad had the original vinyl releases on the Sun record label, that's how long ago and how into Johnny Cash he was. I think I had (still have!) half of the man's lyrics up to 1970 memorized.

That's why it's all about personal motivation. My family doesn't *try* to be extreme, and they don't feel that they are. They just do and think what they want, and other people label them extreme. Inevitably, everyone will appear to conform to something, because it's pretty hard to come up with anything genuinely new. After all, we've had thousands of years of people coming up with stuff, so there's nothing new under the sun. For some of us, it's not about being a part of a group, it's just about doing what feels most like "me." Both my husband and I generally have our tattoos covered in public. It wasn't something either of us did for attention and "extremism" (which it isn't anyway in our generation, something like half the people I meet have them). All of our tattoos hold deep meaning- it's about marking the outside with what is on the inside, claiming the body as one's own.
That was one thing about the Southern California School system (specifically the Los Angeles County Public school system), they were ahead of the times generally regarding inter-racial relations. I went to school with kids of every race and many cultures; white, mexican, black, asian, even a hindu girl and a cuban boy fresh from those countries. And we all thought nothing of it.

By High School I had moved to the Central Valley, new kid in town with no connections, and no preferred clique. Still there were white kids, and mexicans mostly, but armenians were a strong minority and I found myself befriending a number of them. I also discovered that Polish women are quite beautiful to me. I relish homemade kielbasa every bit as much as I relish homemade tamales.

That's interesting. My mother calls me the chameleon, because I'm really good at it. I can also pick up local dialects, mannerisms, etc. within days. It serves me well for work, and it makes nearly everyone comfortable if they meet me when I'm in that mode.
Yep, with me it's a part of my diabolical plan TO RULE THE WORLD!!! <he says as he rubs his hands in that fiendishly mad-scientist sort of way> :D

And my ideology and actions are in some ways more threatening to people than anything "extreme" on the outside. You should see the shock when I tell people I don't watch TV (well, sometimes Nova or the travel channel, but no regular shows). Or that I buy most of my clothing used or from a small select group of manufacturers that I know aren't violating labor rights in sweatshops. Or that I don't care about the size of someone's house, what kind of car they drive, etc. People find that more of a stumbling block than how I look. Unfortunately, quite a few people take it to be patronizing or condescending. But it isn't. It is just being honest.
In that John Muir, H. D. Thoreau, Rachel Carson sort of way I do understand. It was my wife that dragged me kicking and screaming back to the city just this past summer. I gotta keep her happy too.

Eek! :eek: Everyone needs people because it is part of being human.

... the world isn't the really crappy place that the media and many religions say that it is. It's filled with mostly nice people and some of them are really quite interesting.
I agree. The world *is* a beautiful place, and by far the vast majority of the people I have met are wonderful people, all trying to direct their lives in the most moral manner they understand.

Hypothetically, if I ever were to snap, it would be over *the system.* Ever see the Michael Douglas movie "Falling Down?" If I were to snap, it would be over playing the game dutifully as I have been taught by "them" and getting screwed by "them" in the end anyway.

Rat Race Rules:

1. the Rats win.

2. you're not a Rat.

3. you can't win.

4. you can't break even.

5. you will lose.

6. you must play the game, no exceptions.
 

path_of_one

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Hi, 123!

Seems to me I heard explained once before, pre-CR, about the self "focus" in Satanism. I guess I just didn't make the connection (or disconnection rather) compared to earth religions. I'm only ever so slightly more familiar with them, and magic is an academic thing to me. I am aware of it, but I do not overtly and knowingly practice it, and there is a bit of a religiously indoctrinated hedge against it within my faith walk. I tend to skirt the edges on the subject, primarily out of my own ignorance.

I don't practice magic. Well, at least not ceremonial or high magic. I have done energy work, but I don't think it's the same thing. Or maybe it is through different means. That's a whole conversation unto itself- trying to define magic and pick it apart from what is simply will ---> action/result. I'm more aware of types of magic academically than personally, since I sort of rebel against ceremonial magic myself, which isn't necessary for Druidry anyway.

Well, I know there's a lot of new found converts to Johnny Cash after he and his loving wife passed away in the last couple of years, combined with the Joaquin Phoenix movie last year.

My husband has liked Johnny Cash's music since he was a kid. He grew up in a relatively conservative Baptist household. I just like all kinds of music. I'm not a huge Cash fan or anything, but I like practically everything that has a melody and isn't screaming at me. LOL So I don't complain when I'm listening to Cash.

I relish homemade kielbasa every bit as much as I relish homemade tamales.

Yum.

I agree. The world *is* a beautiful place, and by far the vast majority of the people I have met are wonderful people, all trying to direct their lives in the most moral manner they understand.

Yep. They may often drive me crazy, but "I think to myself, it's a wonderful world."

If I were to snap, it would be over playing the game dutifully as I have been taught by "them" and getting screwed by "them" in the end anyway.

I get mostly frustrated and depressed by the big issues: war, violence, harm to the earth. I feel these things intensely and sometimes I can barely stand it, but what can you do? I think sometimes that my purpose might simply to be the one that cries over what harms beings. There is some spiritual purpose in just caring, as opposed to being sucked into everyday life so much that one ceases to notice.

That said, I try not to play the game. I play it as little as possible, and with as much subtle deviance as I can. Maybe it's because I wasn't properly socialized? :p

It also helps to laugh at the game. I don't take myself too seriously, or anyone else for that matter. I do take issues and principles seriously, but I think we'd all be alot better off if we learned to see how silly much of our lives are.

Rat Race Rules:

1. the Rats win.

2. you're not a Rat.

3. you can't win.

4. you can't break even.

5. you will lose.

6. you must play the game, no exceptions

Oh, but no one *must* play the game. The first step is acknowledging to the extent you play, it is your choice. Anyone *could* opt out, but we decide the trade-offs are worth it.
 

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Anton LaVey should be taken with a huge grain of salt. Rolling Stone did an article looking into a lot of claims made in his biography and most of them were found to be false. He was born Howard Stanton Levey for one.
 

17th Angel

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Anton LaVey should be taken with a huge grain of salt. Rolling Stone did an article looking into a lot of claims made in his biography and most of them were found to be false. He was born Howard Stanton Levey for one.

*Chuckles....*

Still a good read..... Most religious icons.... Should be taken with that grain of salt :)
 

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I'd like to know why this is in the Magick forum.
I'm guessing that is where the original poster three years ago thought it would be most likely he'd get an answer. I'm thinking because the two have crossed paths before, ie if you go into a store that has books and trinkets pertaining to magick you'd also find satanic stuff as well. And many from the outside of either would tend to group them together...

But all that is conjecture.
 

17th Angel

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I'd like to know why this is in the Magick forum.

Because -all- forms of Satanism use magic. So I guess that is how they related it.....

My guess is because Satanism uses ceremonial magic and there isn't a clear place for it to go on these forums.

Not just ceremonial.

Alternative and magic. Perfect.

This is the perfect place for Satanism talk.... But this actual thread belongs in FEEDBACK.
 
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