Respectful questions on a difficult subject

[iBrian]

Thipps,

I am not attacking Islam, just a muslim. There is a considerable difference which you do not seem to acknowledge. NMP. I am a theologian, thinker and dreamer. I have considerable experience in comparative religious studies including studies in Islam.

While you are on the Islam board, you are enjoying the hospitality of Muslims, though.

If there are different perspectives on an Islamic views of homosexuality from Muslims themselves, that all contributes to the nature of the original discussion.

If views of homosexuality from non-Muslims are given in answer to this thread, it confuses the discussion.

Islam and Muslims are not on trial here - simply asked to volunteer their time to provide answers on Islam from a Muslim perspective. It would be great to respect that.

 

[Light]

Allah has condemned and destroy cities where homosexuality and lesbianism is rampant.

Quran Sura 11 verses 77 - 82

77. And when Our messengers came unto Lot, he was distressed and knew not how to protect them. He said: This is a distressful day.

78. And his people came unto him, running towards him - and before then they used to commit abominations - He said: O my people! Here are my daughters! They are purer for you. Beware of Allah, and degrade me not in (the person of) my guests. Is there not among you any upright man?

79. They said: Well thou knowest that we have no right on thy daughters, and well thou knowest what we want.

80. He said: Would that I had strength to resist you or had some strong support (among you)!

81. (The messengers) said: O Lot! Lo! we are messengers of thy Lord; they shall not reach thee. So travel with thy people in a part of the night, and let not one of you turn round - (all) save thy wife. Lo! that which smiteth them with smite her (also). Lo! their tryst is (for) the morning. Is not morning nigh?

82. So when Our commandment came to pass We overthrew (that township) and rained upon it stones of clay, one after another

It is a grave sin for one to go near fornication. Even more so for homosexuality and lesbianism. Fornication can be overcome with marriage. And Islam regards marriage as the fullfilment of half of the man faith. However, for homosexual and lesbianism, not only it is outright condemned, it is also going against the natural purpose of our body.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

While you are on the Islam board, you are enjoying the hospitality of Muslims, though.

If there are different perspectives on an Islamic views of homosexuality from Muslims themselves, that all contributes to the nature of the original discussion.

If views of homosexuality from non-Muslims are given in answer to this thread, it confuses the discussion.

Islam and Muslims are not on trial here - simply asked to volunteer their time to provide answers on Islam from a Muslim perspective. It would be great to respect that.

Thank you, I, Brian. As I said, my intention with this thread is NOT to attack anyone's point of view or to pick a fight. As could be expected, I have very strong opinions of my own regarding homosexuality, but I already know what they are, and I'm interested in what others have to say. I knew when I started this thread that at least some of the answers I got would likely be less than comforting to some, not least me, but that didn't take away from my honest desire to hear the perspective of the Muslims on this board.

 

[iBrian]

Indeed, I think you broached the question with due care - it's more that some of the other posters have seemed more careless.

 

[SpiritualHumanist]

Homosexulaity is either forbidden or looked down upon in all Abraham( religions)This is intresting because Pagan, Hinduism, Buddhaism, New Thought,
Toaist , Humanist,Vegans.They arent concerned with such things. Because God/ Goddess is a process to them not a dictator diety with an agenda.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Okay, just a polite note to say that this thread is on the Islam board - which means it's for Muslims to provide Muslim perspectives.

If we want to suggest or criticise any religious perspective, they would probably do better to post or start a new thread on the Politics or Comparative Studies boards, thanks.

It would be, unfortunately the more intolerant muslims are incapable of debating on an open thread and hide here where the debate is always on their terms.

 

[Prober]

We must submit to Allaah on His terms, not ours. You come to your Lord completely and fully. There is no negotiating table here.

Amen! This is the point. Whatever the discussion topic, there are those who will submit and those who will not. It's all or nothing (imo).

And in the end, Allah (swt) will decide.

 

[Kaspar]

I like SpiritualHumanist's contribution. It isn't just muslims who think homosexuality is wrong. All the Abraham religions denounce it. Not to mention widerspread opinion across the caribbean, latin America, and the world for that matter.

Homosexuality is an issue regarless of faith or ethnicity. Therefore IMO to attempt to have a discussion about it from a strictly muslim perspective is beside the point.

I Personally see the act of homosexuality harmless, unlike bestiality, and paedophilia, homosexuality is conducted between two consenting partners. The fact that it is impossible to have children is not a problem, theres far too many people on the planet anyway.

In some areas western thought and Islamic tradition dissagree, if such was not the case then it would undermine their independant development. If they are to influence each other, to create new offshoots, like the teachings of the canadian lesbian "muslim" Irshad Manji then that is not to say she is devoid of all common sense. Many good things have come out of fusions of cultures certainly in the context of music.

Many good points in this thread but it is sometimes hard when people debating have to take assumptions like "at least tolerant of lesbianism" or "Lesbianism is a Mental illness." Let us first outline whether we will assume Lesbianism is accepted or rejected before we discuss its wider implications.

Peace

 

[Muslimwoman]

as salaam aleykum

Homosexuality is against the nature of human life, it is abhorrent in the eyes of Allah and is not a natural lifestyle.

However, nobody knows if it is a mental illness or if peoples genes are mixed up in the womb - we simply do not know why people feel and behave this way. We do know it is not hereditory or they would never have existed. Of course people should be discouraged from this lifestyle and maybe even seek professional help. Certainly for males they are physically damaging a part of their body which is being used/abused against it's intended use. This also goes against Islam, as we are told not to do anything that harms us.

Clearly this poor desperate woman is trying to find something in the Quran that will support her lifestyle and I am afraid she will fail, because no such support exists.

For my fellow Muslims who are being so verbal on this thread, I suggest you visit Saudi and see how many young male prostitutes are picked up by rich businessmen in hotels, before they return home to their wife or wives and children. This does not make it ok in any way but I would warn against the pot calling the kettle black.

I was also quite frankly peeved to see how my fellow Muslims speak to people of other faiths on the Islam board (calling them homosexual, etc). Is this how you would treat a guest in your home? Would your family allow you to speak to anyone this way? The original post asked some reasonable questions, in a clear and respectful manner and you immediately went for the throat and began ranting and making completely uneducated accusations. Why can't you simply explain, in a decent manner, the Islamic view and if necessary provide evidence to support this view? Perhaps you should spend a little less time posting such intolerance and more time reciting the Quran until you learn to behave as a decent Muslim.

Salaam

 

[Abdullah]

Homosexuality in Islam is a great abomination and a crime, it can never be tollerated in the sense that it is ok to be a homosexual, it can only be tolerated in the sense that, homosexuals shouldn't be harrased or persecuted...

Peace

 

[wil]

Clearly this poor desperate woman is trying to find something in the Quran that will support her lifestyle and I am afraid she will fail, because no such support exists. .... I was also quite frankly peeved to see how my fellow Muslims speak to people of other faiths on the Islam board ... Perhaps you should spend a little less time posting such intolerance and more time reciting the Quran until you learn to behave as a decent Muslim.

Namaste Muslimwoman...

Speaking out of turn I'm thinking Scarlet was more looking for reference, for understanding what exactly Islamic thought was on the subject.

Speaking for myself, I see a lot of hand holding with Arabic men. I always wondered if that was due to homosexuality being prevelant or simply a culture that didn't contain the prudish homophobic nature of the US. Here men holding hands or hugging 'is just gay' as the young folks say and many of them are terribly worried about being perceived that way.

In regards to your Islamic brothers not acting quite as Islamic as you like, it is also interesting to see that which I see of my own religion. Often it appears those that consider themselves quite Christian...more Christian than most act in most unChristianlike ways. I however can't speak too loudly on this subject as my memory is not that clouded.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Speaking for myself, I see a lot of hand holding with Arabic men. I always wondered if that was due to homosexuality being prevelant or simply a culture that didn't contain the prudish homophobic nature of the US. Here men holding hands or hugging 'is just gay' as the young folks say and many of them are terribly worried about being perceived that way.

wa aleykum salaam Wil

Okay here is a good example. My husband is about as homophobic as I have ever seen, yet he will walk down the street holding hands with his friends, he will kiss them on the cheek (yet he is not allowed to kiss me on the cheek in public). It is quite a joke for me, that my husband spends all day 'snogging' men but can't kiss his own wife. For the men here it is about brotherhood, there is no sexual overtone.

My husband cannot kiss me in public because this would create certain thoughts for non married men and would be considered lewd, because obviously my husband kisses me because he loves me and has a sexual relationship with me, so we keep this private. He can of course kiss his mother or sister on the cheek in public because there can be no sexual overtone to this.

Saudi is another story, as is Tunisia and a couple of other North African countries. They have a deep seated cultural aspect to this, the attitude that women are for making babies with and men are for having fun with. It is totally unIslamic.

In regards to your Islamic brothers not acting quite as Islamic as you like, it is also interesting to see that which I see of my own religion. Often it appears those that consider themselves quite Christian...more Christian than most act in most unChristianlike ways. I however can't speak too loudly on this subject as my memory is not that clouded.

Okay so I was doing my school teacher bit, I shall go and sit on the naughty spot. However, Muslims are not taught to speak to people about our religion in this way. It deeply insults me when I see our faith portrayed in this way and I don't understand why anyone would join an interfaith forum just to insult people. As my brother Abdullah has explained so well, even in such a short post, Muslims are taught to be tolerant and this also means explaining our faith in a respectful way. So I shall sit on the naughty spot but I'm not saying sorry

Salaam

 

[Laylah]

Assalamu alaikum and Peace,

All I wanted to add was simply this I agree with her statement that Allah (swt) creates us all for a purpose, I believe that he does, he gives us all types of challenges to face in our life. Not all of these tests are the same for each person must face their own.

Some people become sick with a disease, some people live in war torn areas, some people are gay, some people are rich and some are poor these are only some examples. There are people in this world who are autistic, God gives us tests we must face in our lives, and he gives us guidance in the Qur'an and Sunnah bas it is up to us to follow and do whats right. I don't believe that being gay and being muslim is wrong I believe that she knows full well this is not permitted bas it is up to her to face her test because in the end only God knows (allahu alim) who has passed, and we will all be judged the same.

I don't like to use the word Kafir because to me its just another way of calling someone a name...I believe we should have understanding for other peoples struggles, and try to encourage them to do whats right not force...help. Being gay is just another urge to me...one that you must fight against to be a proper muslim, for in the end it is not other muslims judgment you will have to face but Allahs(swt).
Half of the religion is on you and the other half of your religion being completed is to get married and to have children, I am not sure how she may be able to explain this away.
I would suggest to you to read the Qur'an yourself first :O)

Hope that helps you insha'Allah (swt)

Fee Amaan Allah and Peace Ma3salama

 

[Laylah]

jjjj

 

[Quahom1]

Namaste Muslimwoman...

Speaking out of turn I'm thinking Scarlet was more looking for reference, for understanding what exactly Islamic thought was on the subject.

Speaking for myself, I see a lot of hand holding with Arabic men. I always wondered if that was due to homosexuality being prevelant or simply a culture that didn't contain the prudish homophobic nature of the US. Here men holding hands or hugging 'is just gay' as the young folks say and many of them are terribly worried about being perceived that way.

In regards to your Islamic brothers not acting quite as Islamic as you like, it is also interesting to see that which I see of my own religion. Often it appears those that consider themselves quite Christian...more Christian than most act in most unChristianlike ways. I however can't speak too loudly on this subject as my memory is not that clouded.

Ahhhhch! It is a cultural thing. My family (which happens to be third generation Irish on both sides), still exercises the tradition of male family members kissing male family members on the mouth or side of the neck, upon greetings and farewells. It is a sign of affection indeed, but also a show of bonding and cohesiveness of the family, to the outside world. Also, holding hands with same sex is expected, particularly if the hands doing the holding belong to a younger and elder of the family members.

There used to be a time in America, when we instructed our children to hold eachother's hands in times of danger, or as a matter of security, or in just plain friendship. "Hold hands when you cross the street. Hold hands when you're walking through dark places. Hold hands when someone is hurting."

Somewhere along the way in the past quarter century, Americans lost that intimacy of innocence and love.

Perhaps a knee jerk reaction to the gay liberation movement (hey, that seems to be a fact). I've heard parents say to their male children "Don't hold his hand, don't hug him, they might call you gay!"

I've had military buddies come stay with me at my parents' home, and were awed when I kissed my dad or brothers when we greeted.

Know what they asked? "Your family is tight, huh?"

Like that is a new concept?

That is what ticks me off. Old family traditions falling by the wayside becuase of fear of being stereotyped.

Europe (which never had such issues), suddenly does.

oy...what a mess

v/r

Q

 

[ardenz]

Is this a tangent which should move to another section..?

 

[Quahom1]

Is this a tangent which should move to another section..?

Why? The fact that other cultures hold hands as a matter of recourse bother you?

I thought the question was, is this ok?

v/r

Q

 

[ardenz]

Why? The fact that other cultures hold hands as a matter of recourse bother you?

I thought the question was, is this ok?

v/r

Q

No not at all, I find the discussion interesting and I find it interesting to get various opinions and cultural differences as regarding public intimacy and greetings - though I do wonder that male intimacy is often only really seen in public sporting activities.
I just was wondering if it could be openly discussed in a comparative section of the forum or in sociology.
I am not always clear in my communications - it is probably due to my cultural background.

Ardenz

 

[Muslimwoman]

No not at all, I find the discussion interesting and I find it interesting to get various opinions and cultural differences as regarding public intimacy and greetings - though I do wonder that male intimacy is often only really seen in public sporting activities.
I just was wondering if it could be openly discussed in a comparative section of the forum or in sociology.
I am not always clear in my communications - it is probably due to my cultural background.

Ardenz

Hi Ardenz

I don't think we have gone off subject yet, the original question was about Muslims and homosexuality. Muslim men do hold hands walking in the street and kiss but I was just pointing out these are not sexual acts but acts of bonding/brotherhood. I think Q was supporting this with the issue of his cultural heritage and changing experiences in the US.

I do understand that non Muslims may see this behaviour as hypocritical, as homosexuality is forbidden in Islam yet the chaps are still highly affectionate in public. Certainly when I first moved to Egypt I was under the impression that homosexuality was rampant, just because my western upbringing was in fact so homophobic, yet we talk about how accepting we are. A great example is football, in my home rugby was the game of choice because footballers were all "poofters that go round snogging each other". Virtually any male bonding in the UK and USA, beyond a brisk slap on the back, is seen as a weakness and even showing certain 'tendancies'. The rest of Europe is still far more relaxed about males showing each other affection. I have also noted that women no longer really kiss each other, I have seen many female friends in UK stiffen when I go to kiss them on the cheek - something has definately gone wrong with our society. Of course in time I found that Muslim societies are against homosexuality, as it is forbidden, but their culture still accepts shows of affection between men and quite frankly I rather like it, why should men just shake hands with people they love?

Salaam

 

[hidayah]

Salaam everybody

Homosexuality eh.

Ah, the way I see it (and I hope I am not offending anyone by saying this), homosexuality is all about the sexual act. I don't think it is wrong for me to love another woman and wanting to be with her always but being sexually intimate with her would certainly be wrong because it is against nature.

I don't think falling in love with someone of the same gender is deemed to be homosexual. Carrying out a sexual act, is. "Falling in love" does not necessarily lead to sexual attraction. Even if it does, being human is all about choices. You can choose to be a heterosexual. Urges are simply... Urges.

What's wrong with loving someone and not having sex with them?

Maybe what I said may come across as homophobic and simple minded but it's just how I see it.