Why?

[Bandit]

123,



I'll have to think about that. Path's post was very good. For now, since it's late I'll offer this:

I'm not a superstitious person, but I will sometimes, when I'm playing, sacrifice a golf ball to the water god. It's really just a joke, but the idea is that if I give the water god a ball he/she/it will be satiated and leave my other balls alone. I think that the same principle of appeasment applies to more traditional sacrifices. Not all, but some. The tribe offers the life and blood of a member or animal to appease and satiate a god so it will leave the tribe and the tribe's livestock or crops alone.

I don't think that principle applies the Jesus' sacrifice. If we confine ourselves to the context of the gospels and official church doctrine it would seem that Jesus death, while benefiting humans, has a larger effect of settling a cosmic wager between God and Satan. I'm not entirely sure that the salvation resulting from the sacrifice isn't just a side effect of that larger cosmic play. That may be a chicken and egg thing, though.

i feel you are on track with this. i was watching a special on a tribe who still does these sacrifices for a literal circumcision. (cant remember the name of the tribe) they were drinking the blood of the cow & eating it. some of this was forbidden with israel. i agree with you that there was more going on here with Jesus & israel than the way it is done amongst other tribes. israel was not sacrificing to many gods or to the volcanoe god to stop him from being angry. there was something deeper going on.

It's clear, also, that Jesus death and resurrection ar also elements of a personal initiation ritual for him. Upon completion of this initiation he moves into a different office, or puts on a new hat so to speak, in the heavenly hierarchy. In Revelation it says that he is given a new name that only he knows. Names and naming are a big deal in the OT, as I'm sure you're aware. (Don't want to get into that right now!)

i also feel you are seeing the order of events properly & that something did indeed change with the office of Jesus after his death, burial & resurrection. we are on the same page up to here.
in brief, i see these three things that i will share at this point...
God has revealed himself as
the Father in creation
through the Son in redemption
the Holy Ghost in regeneration.

I confess that I don't understand why the Logos would be a localized being, or why it's sacrifice would remedy original sin. I have some ideas, but they're very hermetic so I won't get into that either. What I mean is that I don't understand it from a strictly biblical perspective, although I'm working on it.

If I seem to over-intellectualize the Bible it has a lot to do with the mental and emotional processes I went through to break out of a severely rigid fundamentalist mindset that was programmed into me from birth by my parents. I find the Christ's philosophy of love for God and man very easy to understand and accept because it's so simple and intuitive. This is what recommends it to me. Everything thing else I question rigorously!

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with me, I truly appreciate it.

Chris

we are on the same page here also. i have seen many people come through this forum with institutionalized backgrounds who had to break free. & i know people who are really searching need to do this. when i lived away from home i was hired to play pipe organ for an episcopal church & i stayed for over three years. i truly enjoyed working with the choir & teachers & i used the talent of the young people to create a music ministry for them. this was when i really learned there is a difference in those who are seeking for freedom from the organizations & a difference in the independant churches. another organization i feel is trying is the dutch reform. there is no reason for things to be that rigid all the time. if it is something that is not real clear & direct like things like love, the commandments, water, communion etc...then it is not doctrine, but rather meat & there to feed us & to grow stronger through study & prayer.

so you are not alone my friend. i commend you on your search for the truth through the scriptures.

 

[Prober]

The wages of sin is death. The only payment acceptable to assuage the debt is the death of a sinless one (ie spotless lamb, etc.). God does not delight in bloody sacrifices, he delights in the faith of those who sacrifice, believing in the symbology of the promise of a future sacrifice which would save all mankind. The faith of those sacrificing is what makes the perfume sweet. Jesus says in the New Testament "I am sick of your sacrifices".

 

[Quahom1]

The wages of sin is death. The only payment acceptable to assuage the debt is the death of a sinless one (ie spotless lamb, etc.). God does not delight in bloody sacrifices, he delights in the faith of those who sacrifice, believing in the symbology of the promise of a future sacrifice which would save all mankind. The faith of those sacrificing is what makes the perfume sweet. Jesus says in the New Testament "I am sick of your sacrifices".

Welcome to CR

Where and/or why does Jesus state He is sick of our sacrifices? Can you extrapolate?

I mean, if the Father found the perfume sweet, why would Christ become sick of it?

just curious.

v/r

Q

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Jesus says in the New Testament "I am sick of your sacrifices".

Reference?

Chris

 

[Faithfulservant]

I understand now, that when salvation is concerned, God is only providing for us, what we cannot provide for ourselves. (Through Jesus)

My next question is: WHY is it nescessary; you know, a blood sacrifice for atonement? Why did Jesus have to pay the price? Why does God demand it?

Couldn't he have just forgiven us w/o sending his son to suffer, and die?

Seems barbaric, and cruel to me. Why is he so blood thirsty?

(Still fighting with God)

~Cage~

I hope my explanation will make sense.. sin is disobedience to God.. everytime we disobey God we draw further away from Him because His being Omniperfect disallows any imperfection around Him.. meaning us.. In the bible it is stated that if we were to even behold the face of God we would die.. because we cannot behold such perfection... all of our imperfections would be made too apparent..

God created us because He wanted His creation to want Him.. to need Him.. He didnt need us... He gave us free will because He wants His creation to come to Him willingly He wants us to WANT Him.. If we disobey Him we are choosing to seperate ourselves from Him...in fact our very nature seperates us from Him.. and He is so awesome so merciful and loves us so much that He gave us a way to atone and return to Him as many times as we need to.. and it is not something that is done lightly.. so we cannot take for granted the sacrifice made for us...

Its a debt paid in advance..

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I hope my explanation will make sense.. sin is disobedience to God.. everytime we disobey God we draw further away from Him because His being Omniperfect disallows any imperfection around Him.. meaning us.. In the bible it is stated that if we were to even behold the face of God we would die.. because we cannot behold such perfection... all of our imperfections would be made too apparent..

God created us because He wanted His creation to want Him.. to need Him.. He didnt need us... He gave us free will because He wants His creation to come to Him willingly He wants us to WANT Him.. If we disobey Him we are choosing to seperate ourselves from Him... and He is so awesome so merciful and loves us so much that He gave us a way to atone and return to Him as many times as we need to.. and it is not something that is done lightly.. so we cannot take for granted the sacrifice made for us...

Its a debt paid in advance..

What makes you think God doesn't need us? How could he win the cosmic wager with Satan without us to make his point for him?

Chris

 

[Prober]

Thanks for the welcome. I'm slightly mistaken. It's not Jesus, it's Paul in Hebrews 10: 6 - 8. Try also God (through Isaiah) Isaiah 1: 13, 14. He doen't enjoy the sacrifice, he enjoys faithful worship.

 

[Cage]

I found this, but I'm unsure if this is what Prober was refering to:

Hebrews 10

1. For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Just trying to contribute, lol!


~Cage~

Edit: Nevermind!

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Isa 1:11-17 (KJV)

Chris

 

[Cage]

I hope my explanation will make sense.. sin is disobedience to God.. everytime we disobey God we draw further away from Him because His being Omniperfect disallows any imperfection around Him.. meaning us.. In the bible it is stated that if we were to even behold the face of God we would die.. because we cannot behold such perfection... all of our imperfections would be made too apparent..

God created us because He wanted His creation to want Him.. to need Him.. He didnt need us... He gave us free will because He wants His creation to come to Him willingly He wants us to WANT Him.. If we disobey Him we are choosing to seperate ourselves from Him...in fact our very nature seperates us from Him.. and He is so awesome so merciful and loves us so much that He gave us a way to atone and return to Him as many times as we need to.. and it is not something that is done lightly.. so we cannot take for granted the sacrifice made for us...

Its a debt paid in advance..

That's the thing...I do want God in my life, but I'm having trouble coming to terms with sacrificing something other than ourselves to gain his acceptance.

I don't take Jesus' sacrifice for 'granted' I'm merely unable to accept God's demand for blood of the innocent.

I don't understand it,

Also, if God was not satisfied, or found no pleasure in sin offerings by law, why would he be content with another?

3. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

Is the idea behind Jesus' sacrifice about purging us of 'guilt'? According to Hebrew 10:13 this is why the sin offerings of the law didn't suffice.

Or am I mis-reading it?

~Cage~

 

[Quahom1]

What makes you think God doesn't need us? How could he win the cosmic wager with Satan without us to make his point for him?

Chris

Chris...cosmic wager? Why would an omnipedent and omniscient being wager with a created being?

Unless you are talking about God and Lucifer over "Job"? If so, that wasn't a wager. Or if it was, it was a "fool's" bet...

Is that what you are referring to?

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

Thanks for the welcome. I'm slightly mistaken. It's not Jesus, it's Paul in Hebrews 10: 6 - 8. Try also God (through Isaiah) Isaiah 1: 13, 14. He doen't enjoy the sacrifice, he enjoys faithful worship.

Thanks for the explanation. I will look them up.

v/r

Q

 

[Faithfulservant]

We are spirit beings housed in bodies of flesh.. God gave us this time on earth to choose Him. Consider that our Spirits are dead until being born again.. and how does one become born again? Accepting the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made.. Blood is shed when a baby is born.. Blood is shed when our Spirits awaken to God.. We are new creations.. those are just my thoughts on this subject.

As far as God needing us? That implies a weakness.. lol He is afterall.. omnipotent.. omnipresent.. omniscent.. Im sorry but I cannot humamize God that much.

 

[Quahom1]

That's the thing...I do want God in my life, but I'm having trouble coming to terms with sacrificing something other than ourselves to gain his acceptance.

I don't take Jesus' sacrifice for 'granted' I'm merely unable to accept God's demand for blood of the innocent.

I don't understand it,

Also, if God was not satisfied, or found no pleasure in sin offerings by law, why would he be content with another?



Is the idea behind Jesus' sacrifice about purging us of 'guilt'? According to Hebrew 10:13 this is why the sin offerings of the law didn't suffice.

Or am I mis-reading it?

~Cage~

This is my take. In the beginning, a sacrifice was taken (and given), in earnest to God. The "scent" was sweet, because man meant it. He took his best produce, and offered it to God. Over time however, it became routine for man to sacrifice, and the "scent" became foul to the Father...(e.g. the best became "USDA" stamped for approval by the clergy. In short, it didn't mean anything anymore.

So the Son stepped in. Instead of sacrifices here and there, there would be a "One time sacrifice", for all men. The "Lamb of all lambs" would be sacrificed for man, past, present and future. Being both Man, and God, and Sacrifice, He knew what He was doing, wanted to do it, and was willing to let it happen.

Jesus chose to be that sacrifice, instead of us choosing what to give to God the Father. The Man/God gave Himself, so that the "scent was once again sweet". And He did it for our sakes (because He loves us so much), and the Father accepted that sacrifice. True, Jesus had His immortal life, but it is the mortal life that is so hard for us to let go of. I don't know why.

We cry at the death of an animal, we grieve at the death of a loved one, the Father must have been wracked with agony at the death of His Son. There must be something very special about mortal life, that we haven't quite put a finger on yet (not even after 2000 years).

You (lol) remind me of a time when I was oh, 20. My dad gave me his car. (65 Thunderbird Ragtop). I couldn't believe it. I asked why? He said, "Because you mean that much to me". I still don't understand why, but I appreciate what he did.

I know that isn't the same, but it is along the lines.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

 

[Cage]

I found this in the Living Bible translation:

-- Living Bible
Isaiah 1:11 I am sick of your sacrifices. Don't bring me any more of them. I don't want your fat rams; I don't want to see the blood from your offerings.

Maybe we're past this, but Prober was sorta correct. Only, it was in the 'Living Bible' translation of Old Testament. (Isaiah 1:11)

 

[Quahom1]

I found this in the Living Bible translation:

-- Living Bible
Isaiah 1:11 I am sick of your sacrifices. Don't bring me any more of them. I don't want your fat rams; I don't want to see the blood from your offerings.

Maybe we're past this, but Prober was sorta correct. Only, it was in the 'Living Bible' translation of Old Testament. (Isaiah 1:11)

You both made a good point. personal sacrifices were not working anymore.

 

[Cage]

This is my take. In the beginning, a sacrifice was taken (and given), in earnest to God. The "scent" was sweet, because man meant it. He took his best produce, and offered it to God. Over time however, it became routine for man to sacrifice, and the "scent" became foul to the Father...(e.g. the best became "USDA" stamped for approval by the clergy. In short, it didn't mean anything anymore.

So the Son stepped in. Instead of sacrifices here and there, there would be a "One time sacrifice", for all men. The "Lamb of all lambs" would be sacrificed for man, past, present and future. Being both Man, and God, and Sacrifice, He knew what He was doing, wanted to do it, and was willing to let it happen.

Jesus chose to be that sacrifice, instead of us choosing what to give to God the Father. The Man/God gave Himself, so that the "scent was once again sweet". And He did it for our sakes (because He loves us so much), and the Father accepted that sacrifice. True, Jesus had His immortal life, but it is the mortal life that is so hard for us to let go of. I don't know why.

We cry at the death of an animal, we grieve at the death of a loved one, the Father must have been wracked with agony at the death of His Son. There must be something very special about mortal life, that we haven't quite put a finger on yet (not even after 2000 years).

You (lol) remind me of a time when I was oh, 20. My dad gave me his car. (65 Thunderbird Ragtop). I couldn't believe it. I asked why? He said, "Because you mean that much to me". I still don't understand why, but I appreciate what he did.

I know that isn't the same, but it is along the lines.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

I understand that sacrifice became routine, and I can see how God despised them, that they put little heart into the sacrifices themselves.

I can also see how that when we accept Jesus' sacrifice, it becomes a matter of heart, and maybe God appreciates that, but still our hands become dirty with blood.

This is also in the Living Bible translation:

Isaiah 1:15-16

15. From now on, when you pray with your hands stretched out to heaven, I won't look or listen. Even though you make many prayers, I will not hear, for your hands are those of murderers; they are covered with the blood of your innocent victims.
16. Oh, wash yourselves! Be clean! Let me no longer see you doing all these wicked things; quit your evil ways.

I don't know? I'm thinking now that God doesn't 'demand' blood at all.

Getting frustrated again,

~Cage~

 

[Prober]

God only asks that we love him (and our brother) and keep his commandments (all ten of them).

 

[Quahom1]

I understand that sacrifice became routine, and I can see how God despised them, that they put little heart into the sacrifices themselves.

I can also see how that when we accept Jesus' sacrifice, it becomes a matter of heart, and maybe God appreciates that, but still our hands become dirty with blood.

This is also in the Living Bible translation:



I don't know? I'm thinking now that God doesn't 'demand' blood at all.

Getting frustrated again,

~Cage~

Prober makes good point. And as to your point..."future" sins are covered.

v/r

Q

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

We are spirit beings housed in bodies of flesh.. God gave us this time on earth to choose Him. Consider that our Spirits are dead until being born again.. and how does one become born again? Accepting the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made.. Blood is shed when a baby is born.. Blood is shed when our Spirits awaken to God.. We are new creations.. those are just my thoughts on this subject.

As far as God needing us? That implies a weakness.. lol He is afterall.. omnipotent.. omnipresent.. omniscent.. Im sorry but I cannot humamize God that much.

O.K., how about we're "useful" to God?

Chris