Dondi said:
But why is there such an emphasis in scripture about the eternal fiery place where the worm dieth not and the fire quenches not over and over again. Jesus spoke adamantly about hell. And there is all indications that those who end up there are there for good.
I'll take these verses one by one. Actually, Jesus never talked about "hell" in the sense that we know it today. Jesus talked about Gehenna, which was an actual, physical place. Gehenna was the dump in the Valley of Hinnom and was not at all a nice place- it was full of the carcasses of animals, people who weren't buried properly (criminals, etc.), and burning trash. It stunk and was frightening. Pagan peoples had sacrificed children there. But it was not hell, nor did Jewish people think it was hell (at least in our modern meaning of the word). Jewish people knew it was a real geographic location.
That means that Jesus was using Gehenna to mean something, to make a point. Being God or at least divine according to most Christian theology, if He wished to tell people they were going to hell if they did this or that (or believed this or that), why wouldn't He have said so in plain language? Why the talk about an actual place- Gehenna- rather than a plain description of Hell (i.e., you should not do X or Y, or you could wind up being punished by God forever through the method of burning)?
I believe that, just as Jesus uses countless other metaphors in His teachings which were appropriate for the people of that day, He uses Gehenna as a metaphor for the torment the soul undergoes when it is separated from God, when it sins and does not repent.
Now for the verses...
"And if thy right eye offend thee..." - Matthew 5:29-30
Actually, this makes a lot of sense, but unfortunately we misread it in all kinds of ways today due to problems with translating common Aramaic expressions (idioms) into modern English with all our current connotations. The expression, "If your eye offends you, pluck it out" was a common Aramaic idiom that meant "do not envy/covet." "If your hand offends thee, cut it off" was a common idiom that meant "do not steal." These phrases still mean this in some areas with Aramaic linguistic heritage today. So Jesus was saying, "don't envy and don't steal, because it is better to avoid this at all costs than to have your entire being cast into Gehenna (the place where executed criminals are dumped)."
"Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee"- Matthew 18:8
See above.
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand' - Matthew 25:41,46
Now this one is much more interesting, and one I am still working on interpreting. I haven't been able to track down the original language and a good, scholarly commentary yet. First, I think that it is interesting that Jesus says "everlasting fire" and not Gehenna; furthermore, that the fire is everlasting does not mean everlasting punishment, or He wouldn't need to detail that further on. Fire is a refining symbol in Christianity, so I generally view it in this light- a way to purify that which is not holy. For example, in Jewish ritual worship, fire purified objects used in worship and transformed the offering into a form that reached God. Fire is also often associated with appearances of God- the burning bush, as the pillar of fire over the tabernacle in the wilderness, the consumption of Elijah's sacrifice offered on Mount Carmel. Additionally, fire is a symbol of God's holiness: "Let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:28-29). It is likely that when John the Baptist is talking about the capacity of Jesus to baptize with fire, rather than water, he is referring to this holiness and divinity of God.
I do not think Jesus was talking about literal fire- the place in our imaginations we refer to as Hell. I think, given the textual evidence (there's a ton more throughout the OT and NT on fire and God), that Jesus was talking about a state of being in relation to God's holiness. That is, God refines us and purifies us as metal-workers refine metals by melting them (the refiner's fire that Peter talks about). Peter informs us that eventually the universe will be destroyed by fire (a great prediction, since eventually our Sun will explode and we'll be burned up), but that a new heavens and earth will result, a refined and purified universe (2 Peter 3: 10-12). Additionally, in
1 Cor 3:13, we are told that fire will reveal each of our works as Christians, and "will test and critically appraise the character and worth of the work each person has done."
Given all this, it seems likely that everlasting fire refers to God's judgment, not the punishment itself. We are all subject to God's fire (His holy judgment). But those who do not repent are subject to punishment according to this verse. What that punishment is, is not discussed.
Another interesting thing about this verse, though perhaps a subject for another thread, is that Jesus is not saying that those who do not
believe in Him are subject to everlasting punishment, but rather that those who do not
serve Him are. How does He determine if we have served Him? By reviewing our actions for instances we have served our fellow human beings. Arguably, if there is an eternal punishment, we are not subject to it by basis of our beliefs, but rather our wanton disregard for our fellow humanity, at least according to this passage.
"And if thy hand offend thee." - Mark 9:43-48
See above.
For God so loved the world...He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." - John 3:16-18, 36
I don't see how this contradicts my view on salvation. Whoever truly believes in Christ (undoubtedly I have more liberal views on what this means, but it isn't directly relevant) has a transformation of the soul such that he will not perish (come to destruction, be lost- Amplified) but have eternal/everlasting life. "He who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (Amplified). I don't know how this contradicts my view- we are in hell as long as we choose to be.
As for the wrath of God, that is not a direct discussion of physical hell or even punishment: "But whoever disobeys the Son will never see (experience) life, but [instead] the wrath of God abides on him. [God's displeasure remains on him; His indignation hangs over him continually.]" (John 3:36 Amplified). We need to be careful about the connotations we attribute to scripture. The wrath of God- His displeasure toward us and our resulting separation from Him- are hell in and of itself. Whether or not the mind realizes it, the soul is tormented. How many Christians have not realized how lost and tormented their soul was when they were unrepentant until they came to know Christ? So it is for the soul after death until it comes to know Him.
Additionally, this verse has come to mean orthodoxy yields heaven. That is, right belief about Jesus leads to everlasting life. However, Jesus' own words say, as discussed above, that it is in service to our fellow human beings that we know and serve Him. Perhaps knowing Christ is not equivalent to being Christian (in the sense of being baptized, professing belief in Jesus, and belonging to a Christian church). Even the demons know who Jesus is, and believe in Him. Believing in Him in this verse must mean something more than mere thought, given the rest of Jesus' teachings.
"In flaming fire..." - 2 Thessolonians 1:8-9
"To deal out retribution (chastisement and vengeance) upon those who do not know or perceive or become acquainted with God, and [upon those] who ignore and refuse to obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Such people will pay the penalty and suffer the punishment of everlasting ruin (destruction and perdition) and eternal exclusion and banishment from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (Amplified)
Again, no physical hell. But it does bring up the everlasting separation from God. All I can say is this doesn't jive with what I've experienced of God and that I'm still working on this matter. The fire metaphor, again, is explained above.
Interestingly, it again does not condemn non-Christians, though many would interpret it to mean this. Who it condemns are those who do not bother to seek out God (for we are, in other passages, told that those who seek, find) and those who refuse to
obey the Gospel. Jesus Himself tells us what obedience to God and His teachings mean... how our attitudes and actions should be. Perhaps some are not Christian, but know Christ and God, whether or not they call Him by the name we do.
"And the sea gave up the dead..." - Revelation 20:13-15
Now this is another issue with translation and interpretation.
First, "death and hell" are inappropriate translations. The actual Greek word used here is Hades. Hades was not equivalent to Gehenna or our modern conceptions of hell. Hades was the state of disembodied existence and death, the place of all the dead according to Greek mythology.
So here the verse should read: "And the sea delivered up the dead who were in it, death and Hades surrendered the dead in them, and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done [according to their motives, aims, and works]. Then death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's [name] was not found recorded in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire." (Amplified)
First, it only garuntees that death and Hades (states of being) are hurled into the lake of fire, which could be (given the textual evidence) a reference to God's refining glory. It doesn't make much sense that you would throw the state of being dead and disembodied into a literal lake of fire. How would that happen? Then it says that
if anyone's name is not recorded in the Book of Life, then they will also be hurled into the lake of fire. Arguably, this means that if there are such people, they would also be put into the refining fire of God's judgment and glory. Secondly, there may not be anyone that doesn't make the list. This passage (and others that talk about the refining fire of judgment) work well as a cautionary warning and encouragement to critically analyze one's motives and actions and to repent.
"But the fearful..." - Revelation 21:8
See above. Given the context, it is likely this lake of fire refers to God's refining glory and judgment.
In light of these scriptures, we cannot afford to just lightly gloss over them. If true, then it is very serious business to those on the receiving end. However unfair one would think this prospect is, the scriptures do not mince words about the wrath of God. How do we deal with such graphic and explicit descriptions of such a horrific place of punishment and the seeming permanence of it?
Agreed. I do not lightly gloss over hell, but rather carefully study the scriptures about it. Certain translations, such as the KJV, mask very important distinctions in the original language. The KJV translates Gehenna, Hades, and sheol (the grave) all as hell. But none of these concepts in their original cultural and linguistic context meant hell as we've come to think about it. I prefer reading the Bible in its original languages as much as possible; I believe this protects its integrity. Thus, I think translations should be careful to leave the original language intact in this case rather than translating them all to mean something that is quite different and a concept that was arguably peppered with Pagan ideologies about the afterlife.
Additionally, I think that it is unfortunate that many people need to think about hell as a place of physical torment to feel that it is punishment enough- or bad enough to scare people into repenting. As good as God is, as amazing as communion with Him is, is not a separation of our soul from God punishment enough? Is it not the ultimate torment, when as Christians we look back over our life when we were not saved? Christians typically view the best thing in their lives as their relationship with God, and the worst thing that they ever went through as the life they had before knowing Him. Not physical pain or suffering, but the anguish of the lost soul. I don't see why the afterlife would be any different.
