Essence and egregore 1

Discussion in 'Esoteric' started by Thomas, Jul 1, 2006.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,739
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Path_of_One asked some questions of me which I wanted to answer, so here is a somewhat delayed reply. I thought it best to start a new thread.

    First, are you equating Faerie with the astral realm? And are you saying elementals exist in that realm?

    No. The astral realm is, as you say, the realm of human thought - a realm of all the things created by human thought. Now undoubtedly, some would say this is not so, but then ...

    Perhaps there are not solid definitions of these supernatural places and people are talking past each other and using the same word to describe different things.

    And this is true. It depends upon the defining principles under which 'things' (gross or subtle, material or spiritual) in the broadest sense are structured, and even then, layers or degrees of principle, primary, secondary, etc., within an overall, or overarching, structure:

    One:
    There is man, in whom God and creation meet.

    Two:
    Man is composed of body and soul when viewed under the principle of creation as such.

    Three:
    Man is composed of body, soul and spirit when viewed under the principle of the place man occupies as the with the whole of the created order: body, soul and spirit.

    Four:
    Man operates under the principle of four - or four modes of operation - the physical (basar); the vital, etheric or blood body (nephesh); astral or psychic body (ruah); and the spiritual body (neshamah). This triune structure was disordered by the fall, allowing the emergence of the discriminating ego (psyche) which should orchestrate the three 'unseen' according to the highest principle (as above, so below) and thus "not my will but thy will be done" (Luke 22:42). The fall was brought about by the inversion "not thy will but my will be done" and so the primordial harmony of the union of nephesh-ruah-neshamah, all of which corresponds to 'wind' or 'breath', was shattered, occluded by the self-serving will (gnome) which brought psyche to the fore.

    Five:
    The Kaballists' nephesh-ruah-neshamah-hayah (the eternal soul)-yeshidah (the one soul).

    Six:
    The above plus basar - body.

    Seven:
    Physical body (basar), etheric body (neshamah), astral body (psyche), lower self (nous), reason (ruah), intellect (pneuma), higher self (neshamah).

    There are other systems, eg the chakras, and further layers, eg the nine spiritual hierarchies, the ten Sephiroth, the twelve signs of the zodiac ... and so on.

    And each 'school' orders those according to its own operative principles and understandings - and these understanding can themselves be ordered into Mystical, Gnostic, Hermetic (philosophical), Magical and Traditional.

    Each higher replicates radiates into the lower, and the lower forms itself accordingly (the tension between esoterism and exoterism) unless a particular school cuts itself off from its higher source, at which point a whole raft of problems ensue as the source is effectively the will (unseen) and psyche (seen) of its founder.

    +++

    Having said all that:

    I suppose I had chalked up the beings people call fae and elementals as nature spirits;

    Every existing 'thing' has a 'body' be it gross or subtle, physical or spiritual, by which is is distinct from everything else, so flower faeries, for example, are the spiritual aspects of the material plant - but the 'consciousness' of a flower faerie is equal to that of a plant. If, for example flower faeries actually looked like little people, then the perfect form of a plant would be a little person ... which is nonsense ... so the flower faerie is the subtle or immaterial form of its physical counterpart.

    The spirit of a crystal, for example, is its resonance. Science will say crystals resonate because of their intrinsic structure, Hermeticism wiull say a crystal is the solid or material form of the resonance itself. Without a crystalline body, the resonance cannot manifest (or radiate itself) in the material realm.

    This does not mean then, that the life of a crystal is lower than the life of an angel, rather it is simpler - it is one thing in itself, whereas angels, and moreso humans, are multiple things in a unity.

    Elementals are evven 'lower' than crystals because they are the 'spiritual' forms of pure energies or currents, the material form of which is colour, for example.

    Having said that, in their purity as 'raw energy' they are very powerful, but possess no intelligence. exposure to elementals can be dangerous, even fatal, as, like electricity, they overstimulate their corresponding system within the human faculty. Red overstimulates the blood, for example, white the nervous system, yellow the emotions...

    Flower faeries posess no more intelligence than a flower. Faeries cannot talk, although some people swear they hear them talking, others will say they hear cryptic messages, laughter, a bubbling brook, a tinkle of bells ... all that is happening is the human imagination is clothing the experience in sensory imagery ... faeries do not look like little people, the essential form of a rose is a rose, not a little person ... but because they interact with humans at a level beyond the sensible, the faculty evokes a sensible (and invariably quasi-human) form.

    I've never gotten a very good, solid definition of the astral realm. It seems that all sorts of traditions have their own understandings of what it is and how people get there, and whether or not there are connections between other phenomena, like lucid dreaming and trance, and the astral plane.

    Exactly.

    I've heard some say it's a realm unto itself,

    It is a psychic realm, the realm of the mind/imagination/fantasy.

    and others say it's a gateway to a variety of places.

    It exists in relation to other domains, eg physical, spiritual, but it is the human who is the nexus. The astral cannot occupy the spiritual, although the spiritual will effect the astral. (As above, so below).

    Some say it's thought-forms, others that it is actual spirit-entities. Everyone claims to be basing their definition and beliefs about it on their own personal experiences.

    Indeed.

    I haven't heard before the idea that all these varied supernatural entities- fae, elementals, succubi/incubi, etc. are all from the same "place," so to speak.

    And that was my fault, in this instance, speaking in general terms.

    The astral is populated by thought-forms, or egregores. The difference being that egregores are 'artificial' or 'inventions' in that they have no essence, bearing in mind that all essences trace back to one Essence, God, through the Great Chain of Being, or by the action of Divine Plenitude. Egregores are 'unnatural' in the sense that they are not 'real' but manufactured by man (leaving fallen angels aside) by the egoic (self-determining) will, whereas the will aligned to the Divine does not manufacture but radiate the higher - "He who has seen me has seen the Father" - whereas the egoic will says "look at me."

    I tend to think there are many universes, and the mythology is an attempt of people to grasp glimpses they've had of other places, not one single place.

    Yes, but the immediate difference is whether the mythology is based on reality or an invention. Many people meet TV celebrities and seem unable to distinguish between the actor and the role he plays. Dan Brown's book is utter fantasy, but real for many people.

    Having said that, primitive or pagan myth can open onto the Divine, modern myth tends to shut the door. Revelation subsumes eveything below it in the same way that advancing scientific theory covers every aspect of its phenomena. In that sense religion marks an evolutionary or unfolding process.

    Second, I'm not sure I understand your definitions of presences vs. essences. Are you saying fae are essences but not presences, and what does that mean? I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but this is new to me and I just am not getting it. As far as I could tell in mythology, fae were personalities, spirit-entities- I would use the term presence for that. I've never been able to tell if what I read in some natural places as "nature spirits" are what others would call fae or not.

    In Scripture there is the pool at Bethseda:
    "Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep [market] a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches (there's a clue). In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had."
    John 5:2-4

    Now this I would call an essence, albeit angelic, because its operation is somewhat mechanical, according to its 'certain season' and whoever got to the water first was healed, regardless of how good or bad the person is as a person.

    If, however, the angel appeared and spoke, then that would require 'intelligence' or 'presence of mind' on the part of the angel to engage in dialogue - that is what I meant, somewhat inaccurately, by 'presence'.

    Put another way, that energy which has no will but does its job is an essence, that energy which has a will of its own - in the sense of a degree of self-dermination and awareness - is a presence (as opposed to the idea that an essence is present because you know it's there).

    I wish I never mentioned it, as I was using it in a context I did not explain.

    What should be noted here is that apart from humans and angels, nothing 'true' in nature presents itself as a self-determining or self-directing intelligence - at best there is a kind of animal awareness, and thus the possibility of a limited degree of communication, but you can't discuss philosophy with a faerie. This leads us back into the realm of the egregore - the maufactured entity.

    +++

    "One gives the name egregore to a force generated by a powerful spiritual current and then nourished at regular intervals, according to a rhythm in harmony with the universal life of the cosmos, or to a union of entities united by a common characteristic nature."
    Robert Amberlain 'La Kaballe pratigue', Paris, 1951, p175)

    'In the Invisible, beyond the physical perception of man, exist artificial beings - generated by devotions, enthusiasms and fanatacisms - that one names egregores.'
    "Meditations on the Tarot"

    "My name is legion"

    The soul is not an egregore, however the body can generate its own egregore in different realms, according to the cognisance and capacity of the will. The lowest form is the as a product of the life of its cells, an etheric egregore, and this is the phantom which resists dissolution after the physical death and which can manifest as a phantom - this phantom has no conscious being as such, but is more akin to an electromagnetic recording which replays itself like a loop tape. The phantom is not to be confused with either the soul, nor the etheric and astral bodies which are the soul's subtle presence in the material realm, and its material presence in the subtle (psychic) realm resectively.

    A phantom is the egregore of the body, a ghost is the egregore of the mind, and thus possesses a degree of consciousness, of self-awareness, of its own presence. It is also aware that this presence, like its phantom, is diminishing by the law of entropy, so it seeks to sustain itself by attachment to:
    1 - another 'living' egregore, the easier course, but lesser, by virtue of the egregore to which its attaches, which has already begun to damage its creator-host (who is the stronger - who is the master of his habits?) which will seek to defend itself to maintain its own sustenance. (Here lies the realm of the sexual and emotional predator, of possession, of psychic disorder and mental illness, ruined health, suicide - the invasive egregore must bring the occupying egregore down to assert itself - take full possession - of its victim, ie it is a Rumplestilskin, succubus, incubus, vampire ... or a zombie, a dibbuk ... black magic, casting ther runes, curses, etc.)
    2 - a pure life, much harder as its innate defences are stronger, but much more rewarding, as the first fruits of its corruption offer the sweetest savour - here lies the sacrifice of virgins, children and the innocent.

    The 'power' derived from the sacrifice is not from the victim, but rather the corruption of the practitioner, whose disordered will feeds the egregore, who in turn suckles him, to drive him to greater extremes.

    The point is that a 'presence' - any being that possesses the consciousness of 'presence of mind' - is either revealed (from above, is human or angelic), or it is an invention and should be shunned.

    Revealed presences are souls, in the material realm, and angels, in the subtle, which are generated from above, by God, and are then revealed, according to His will, within the Cosmos ("According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world" Ephesians 1:4). The angels are actually higher because they are pure act - they exists in the fullness of their being, and are thus closer to God, whereas souls are potentially higher because they are created to be pure act in both the angelic and the material planes - as evidenced by those pure souls who have manifested such phenomena as levitation (St Francis, notably), bilocation (St Pio, most recently), or physical incorruption.

    Logismoi, as I mentioned before, are the phantoms of thought; they are the stuff of fantasy and the source of our 'devotions, enthusiams and fanatacisms' - to which they are directed ('you become what you think about') - but they have no essential being, and thus nor do the egregores which they engender - they have no order of reality and for this reason they are classified as 'evil'. The imagination, on the other hand, makes present in the mind an invisible reality in a comprehensible form, in the same way that real art makes present an invisible reality in a sensory form. True art and true imagination are windows into the Infinite.

    Egregores are unrestrained. A football mob, a riot, generates an egregore which lasts, then disperses, but people will hang on to the 'thrill' and this is enough to keep the egregore going.

    The video industry has generated an egregore of pornography of fantastic proportion, which seeks every to make pornography acceptable, and thus more of it. The web helps in this regard.

    +++
     
    shaffy likes this.
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,739
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Essence and egregore 2

    I have spoken of presences from above - souls or angels, and indicated presences from below - egregores - which are at best the natural byproducts of the processes of the real - fortunate or unfortunate - and at worst unnatiral creations or usurpations of a lesser nature which are directed toward some perverse inversion of the good.

    A crystal is neither good nor evil, but it can be made to serve a good or evil purpose, and either way an egregore of the crystal essence will be created, empowered by its creator and sustained by him or by his unwitting agent.

    Crowley and Dr Dee both employed mediums as intermediaries between themselves and the subtle realm in the practice of magic. If anything should go wrong, it is the intermediary who suffers the result. The circle and other symbols in the occultists' arcana are either to confine and contain the evoked egregore, or to preserve and protect the practitioner from that which he evokes outside the circle, placing anybody in proximity at risk.

    The 'djinn' of Arab Hermeticism and magic is an elemental power harness by a sorceror.

    It does not serve well to dwell here. The astral light is full of trash, and filling every moment, and best avoided. There are levels, but all are populated by psychic activity. Religions - Christianity and Bbuddhism notably - direct the believer to ignore it, and within the practice of the tradition there are certain protections inbuilt.

    The believed source of heraldry, for example, is that the helmet crest is a copy of the astral or psychic form of the knight in question, which I have alluded to elsewhere. It is the realm of 'ghoolies and ghosties and long-legged beasties' and certainly should not be sought for its own end, although many do, and become its victims along the way - this is the function of the shaman, when ascent was only possible through the astral.

    The berserker lives under the egregore of battle. General Patton near enought admitted to it ... "I live for war"

    An egregore did more damage to the US forces in Vietnam than the enemy.

    The Nazi Party engendered an egregore which, for a while, enslaved a whole nation.

    If your aim is higher - the spiritual realm - then you have no need nor want to 'live' in the lower, for, as the saying goes, you become what you think about.

    My own watchword regarding the astral is a saying of the samurai from the Age of Warring States:
    'The strong eat; the weak are meat', couple that with 'fools rush in...' and there's an idea of what meddling with the astral brings about.

    In closing, the last century saw more people killed than in all previous history, and all motivated not by religion, nor even by misunderstood religion, but by an egregore - the product of the political 'devotions, enthusiasms and fanatacisms' that ensnared humanity ...

    Thomas
     
    SufiPhilosophy likes this.
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,739
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    A reflection on a trend of the above posts -

    Everything in Eriugena's 'natura' (which includes the super- as as part of the natural) should be itself, and radiate its cause - which is its higher principle - selfhood is the highest gift of God, to be your own being, and identify that being with God's Being.

    So our essential being, all nature's essential being, is Divine in its source and origin, and Divine in its end, that end being its place in the Divine 'scheme of things'.

    As long as this is the lived principle of a being - its act - then being radiates the Being of God.

    When the self serves another principle, other than God, it invents and manufactures a false being, a being without essence but which is held together by the energy of the will - and this is an egregore.

    All egregores are, therefore, 'evil' in the sense they are not Divinely willed, and therefore have no place in the 'scheme' - they have no ontological reality outside of he who wills it.

    A religion, in this sense, is not an egregore but the physical manifestation of a Divine Principle; the 'Mystical Body of Christ' of which St Paul speaks is not an egregore born of the 'enthusiasms, devotions and fanatacisms' of the faithful, but a manifestation of the principle of Divine Unity which is Trinity. This is why the Catholic and Orthodox Churches see themselves as Trinitarian, willed by God in Eternity, created by Christ in Space and brought to fullness in Time by the Holy Spirit.

    Time and Space are necessary conditions of being - and this is why philosophy talks of God as 'beyond-being' and above time and space - God is Eternal and Infinite without change, God is now, always and everywhere, the circle without circumference and without center.

    Because man is not perfect, the Fall occluding his deiform nature, he will inflict his own 'enthusiasms, devotions and fanatacisms' upon the Church, which in turn obscures that Mystical Body, but the Mystical Body is impervious to all that is below 'and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it' (Matt 16:18) and through which it invariably breaks forth like sunlight through cloud.

    The symbol of the egregore is the serpent, in its purest form the worm Oroborus, which consumes its own tail, it is a closed circle in upon itself, and in closing upon itself pursues itself as its own end and its own good. Itself as its own god.

    The symbol of the Spirit is the dove, the bringer of peace; the eagle, the bringer of justice; the flame, the bringer of wisdom.

    "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and innocent as doves." (Matt 10:16)

    The serpent rightly signifies cerebration, of the will, reason and intellect working towards its principle, as the author of "Meditations on the Tarot" put it, enfoldment, of wisdom:

    "To see a World in a Grain of Sand
    And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
    Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
    And Eternity in an hour..."
    Auguries of Innocence - William Blake

    But Sophia lost her innocence, seduced by the serpent's charm - the 'glamour' or illusion of her own selfhood, in which she believed she could be "as God" if she served herself as principle, and turn the illusion of her selfhood into a reality.

    The serpent is the symbol of the Fall,
    the dove is the symbol of Salvation.

    Psalm 23 is a meditation upon the journey of a life, and of the first mark of Christian Initiation, Baptism, 'resoreth the soul' as inviolate with regard to egregores - unless the individual subsequently wills otherwise.

    This is symbolised by the Blessed Virgin treading the serpent underfoot.

    Thomas
     
    SufiPhilosophy likes this.
  4. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,120
    Likes Received:
    419
    Kindest Regards, Thomas!

    Awesome post! I am overwhelmed.
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,033
    Likes Received:
    2,058
    interesting examples of egregores in wikipedia...Santa Claus and Uncle Sam

    quite the writings Thomas, much appreciated...do continue.
     
  6. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

    Joined:
    May 8, 2006
    Messages:
    2,612
    Likes Received:
    2
    Did Wiki mention anything regarding Ronald McDonald ?

    Yes Thomas, your efforts are much appreciated as you quite effectively delineated the difference between that which is timeless, mystical, and holy from that which probably is not. Again, thank you.

    flow....:)
     
  7. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    See also the Wikipedia entry on `thoughtform.' It is quite relevant, and even references the Tibetan `tulpa,' with an example (Friar Tuck) from the accounts of Madame Alexandra David-Neel.

    I'm surprised there hasn't been mention of Sherlock Holmes!

    Incidentally, one finds the following comments by the Tibetan Master (Djwal Khul) in Externalization of the Hierarchy (pp.12-13) ... and I think this is quite interesting in light of so much that is said these days of the Theosophical and ersatz `Ascended Masters':
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Above all, let the psychics in the world today grasp the necessity of controlling and of not being controlled; let them realize that all that they do can be done by any trained disciple of the Ageless Wisdom should the occasion warrant it, and circumstances justify such an expenditure of force. Psychics are easily deceived. For example, it is of course obvious that on the astral plane there is a thought-form of myself, your Tibetan brother. All who have received the disciples' degree monthly instructions, all who read the books which I have sent out into the world with the aid of A.A.B., also all who are working in my personal group of disciples have naturally and automatically aided in the construction of this astral thought-form. It is not me, nor is it linked to me, nor do I use it. I have definitely disassociated myself from it and do not employ it as a means of contacting those I teach, for I work from choice entirely on mental levels thereby undoubtedly limiting my range of contacts but increasing the effectiveness of my work. This astral thought-form is a distortion of me and my work, needless to say, and resembles an animated and galvanized shell.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Because there is in this form much emotional substance and also a certain amount of mental substance, it can make a wide appeal and its validity is such that like all shells, for instance, which are contacted in the seance room, it masquerades as myself and where the intuition is unawakened the illusion is complete and real. Devotees can therefore tune in with great facility on this illusory form and be completely deceived. Its vibration is of a relatively high order. Its mental effect is like a beautiful parody of myself and serves to place the deluded devotees in touch with the scroll of the astral light, which is the reflection of the akashic records. These latter are the eternal scroll whereon the plan for our world is inscribed and from which those of us who teach gather our data and much of our information. This, the astral light distorts and steps down. Because this is a distorted image and functions in the three worlds of form and has no source of validity higher than those of form, it has in it the seeds of separativeness and of disaster. Forms of flattery are sent out from it, ideas of separateness, those thoughts which feed ambition and which foster love of power, and those germs of desire and personal longing (which divide groups) emerge from contact with it. The results to those who are deceived thereby are sad.
    [/FONT]​
    And yet, even several years ago, I had already seen numerous websites offering "private consultations" with the Tibetan Master, or with St. Germain, and so forth. :rolleyes:

    Of course, as this Master points out, we can avoid such errors by seeking to utilize the awakening Intuition (the faculty of `Buddhi' mentioned on various forums, and recently by Christine P.) ... as well as the wise discernment (viveka, or `discrimination') afforded by the light of the Higher Mind, termed by Christians "Holy Spirit."

    Namaskar,

    taijasi
     
  8. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,635
    Likes Received:
    110
    This biblical passage seems to say much the same thing:

    ...Rapture... {Etymology: [Obsolete French, abduction, carrying off, from rapt, carried away, from Old French rat, from Latin raptus. See rapt.]}
     
  9. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Messages:
    2,924
    Likes Received:
    10
    This is fascinating Thomas, thanks for the invite. I don't know that I have anything to add, but I do have questions.

    In terms of thought creations, creatures if you want, residing in the astral realm, what is the connection with thought creations built up through prayers or specific devotional acts enacted or verbalized by many people through time? Aren't these activities creating egregores? Isn't that the point? How does one traverse through the astral to the higher planes without some sort of path made of astral material? Is there some way of bypassing the astral and its reflective illusions? If not it would seem that a guide of some sort, or some kind of discernable path through would be necessary. But how could one trust such a guide or path knowing that it, being one's own creation, is susceptible to the illusionary nature of all things in the astral?

    Chris
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,739
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    In terms of thought creations, creatures if you want, residing in the astral realm, what is the connection with thought creations built up through prayers or specific devotional acts enacted or verbalized by many people through time? Aren't these activities creating egregores? Isn't that the point?
    Not quite. Egregores are entitles without essence, without foundation - they are psychic and exist at that level because they are the product of the mind. Prayer, liturgical rites and sacerdotal acts are part of the spiritual order of things, and their methodology is given by God. Man cannot make things sacred, any more than he can force God to accept a sacrifice; he can offer, and her can hope.

    The Sacraments (or Mysteries) are such because they are ordained by God, not invented by man.

    How does one traverse through the astral to the higher planes without some sort of path made of astral material? Is there some way of bypassing the astral and its reflective illusions?
    Yes, have nothing to do with them. Follow an authentic spiritual path ... a Revealed Religion (there's enough to choose from) ... and avoid initiatic and magical orders of all kinds, all of which are 'fallen' from the true nature of religion, a very few are willfully peverse, most misguided egos, but all are counterfeit ... there's nothing in the astral required, its allure is itself a 'glamour' and that is what attracts ... the astral says "look, bright shiny things for you" ... most of all shun those who present the astral as a spiritual domain.

    If not it would seem that a guide of some sort, or some kind of discernable path through would be necessary. But how could one trust such a guide or path knowing that it, being one's own creation, is susceptible to the illusionary nature of all things in the astral?
    Because true religion is above the astral. The astral becomes inconsequential. It is powerless. You have a guardian angel, and the whole of heaven on your side. Psalm 23 is a reality. But to look for such is to fall prey to temptation - this is what the Adversary asked Jesus in the Desert ... so all this 'spirit guide' stuff is decidedly dangerous... Christianity and Buddhism both teach to avoid and ignore all locutions, visions, etc. If God has a message, He will make Himself known, but in the meantime there are a myriad entities who would delight in leading you astray.

    The astral is a Pandora's Box. It is the Old Man of the Mountain, the Garden of Delights of the hashishin.

    Thomas
    (who will be away for a week ...)
     
  11. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    I find this distinction artificial and unnecessary ... not least to say, inaccurate. I mean, come on, where's the black & white line which one can (or cannot) cross where his or thoughts suddenly become "of God?" I am curious, actually, to see how a seasoned Catholic would answer that.

    In my own experience, the closest thing that translates to the views you are expressing, Thomas ... is the fact that man can create spiritualized "thought-entities" (or thought-forms) because he has a `Higher' or Spiritual Nature (Present and Eternally Present because God-given, and not something with which the faithful are rewarded). If I sit thinking about any old tree, or fish, then the thought is relatively neutral. Thoughts and desires which are charged with negativity or selfishness ... might fit into the category of egregores as you describe.

    But my thoughts about Sacred Subjects, just as your thoughts about Sacred Subjects - are IDENTICAL ... inasmuch as we both have equal potential to focus clearly, and imbue them with a positive life-force - characterized (or defined) by the selflessness, loving-kindness, or altruistic quality of the thinker in question. And this is the science behind my statements, here and elsewhere, that God cares not whether a man is a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist, or a follower of so-called `New Age' or New Thought types of religion & spirituality. I bring this up as a matter of fact - and not as an expression of opinion at all. Sadly, there are those who might not understand this, but they may as well argue that the moon is made of swiss cheese! :rolleyes:

    Whatever else may be said, and I do agree that most magical orders, as also religions, have fallen short of their Founders' intentions ... consider that nevertheless it is not inaccurate to say that the One True Path is the Path of Initiation, identical with White Magic, as taught by both the Christ and the Buddha (the `Heart Doctrine' vs. the Doctrine of the Eye).

    The astral plane, full of glamours and pitfalls as you indicate, Thomas, is something we all experience, every single day, as but one of the worlds in which we live and move and have our being. It is the 2nd of the "three worlds" spoken about so often in Eastern philosophies ... and in simple terms it is the world of Emotion (as also of desires, passions, feelings, & aspirations). As such, it cannot be - nor should it be - avoided. Rather, we must develop ourselves astrally just as we must develop ourselves physically and mentally, all of these being accomplished through the disciplining of the respective vehicle, or body, of that plane. It is the bringing of the entire, threefold personality nature under the control and guidance of the Spiritual Soul (existing on the plane of Higher Mind, and in the Buddhic world), which is the goal of the Disciple, or Esoteric Student.

    In most cases, we do not have to subjugate our psychic senses (the lower siddhis of the astral plane), because they are not unfolded in the present incarnation. Still, as we begin to become responsive and sensitive to subtler influences (and the astral world is subtler than the physical, materially speaking), there is a genuine need for guidance. The disciple, or student of the Ageless Wisdom, as also many individuals today who are beginning to awaken to the spiritual worlds (higher Mental, Buddhic, Atmic), will legitimately ask the question - where do I turn for guidance?

    While I readily agree that the astral is not a "spiritual domain," I disagree that it can simply be shunned - unless by this you mean to AVOID the premature development of psychic senses, Thomas. Aspiration and prayer will certainly help us to move through the astral on a daily basis, as well as in a lifelong sense ... but we will need to go further, and apply the mental discipline of which Christine P. speaks (on other threads). Meditation will be most useful here, and increasingly the use of specifically formulated mantrams - as part of the Science of Invocation. The New World Religion will teach us much about this latter Science.

    One additional fact is worth considering. While qualified Spiritual Masters cannot be found operating chiefly from the astral or lower mental planes, their disciples can be found in these realms - both incarnate and discarnate. There, they operate as `Invisible Helpers' (so designated by Charles Leadbeater in his very useful book by that title). They serve very much as the eyes and ears of the Teachers, Whose consciousness is focused on much subtler Spiritual levels. And it is often these Disciples who assist those who have newly transitioned to the astral plane at "death," as well as giving lectures to all of us during "Night Class." So, too, can Initiates be found functioning on the higher astral and mental planes, giving the more advanced Night classes, but also serving the Masters directly. And these CAN be safely trusted, and looked to for guidance and consultation (on spiritual matters).

    The point is, that the astral plane - though generally a miasma and a fog, at least in the lower regions - does have its wise denizens, if of temporary or transitional nature. Many classes of Devas (`Angels'), too, are beneficial to Humanity, and in direct Service to the Christ ... and capable of being contacted on astral levels. I would not recommend this, unless you find yourself dead tomorrow, and happen to remember reading it on CR. ;) But it is true ... (who do you think "carries your prayers to Heaven," as the saying goes? AHEM!) ...

    Ummm ... unless you're attempting to redefine the term `astral,' I don't think the first part of this is accurate at all, Thomas! "True religion is above the astral"??? I would agree with the sentiment, but technically speaking, most religion is PURELY astral!!! :eek:

    Remember - astral is not a "dirty word!" It was coined by the medievalists, and so applied simply because the substance of the next subtler world than the physical literally GLOWS! Self-luminous substance - thus starry, as astra ... but as you point out, of a much coarser & relatively un-spiritualized substance nevertheless. But let us not add to the dire heresy of separateness (the illusion of a permanent, isolated individuality) by forgetting that the physical world is bridged to the mental BY THE ASTRAL!!! To avoid it altogether on one's spiritual quest is to attempt to take the B out of ABC! It cannot be done ...

    The trick
    , which I think you're suggesting, Thomas, is to remember that these vehicles co-inhabit the same SPACE, thus A, B and C exist as a TRIANGLE, or a lower triad ... otherwise called the personality. We are composed of emotion and emotional substance (contained in an emotional vehicle) just as much as we made of mind (or thoughtstuff) and a mental vehicle, plus actions and their corresponding physical vehicle. You cannot reduce aspirations, desires and feelings to neuro-chemical activity, nor can you ascribe it to the functions of mind. FEELINGS ARE FEELINGS ... and to suggest that modern religion is anything OTHER than feeling - at least predominantly - is absurd!

    Certainly, yes, there is an intellectual (or mental) component, as also the Spiritual, but I find the predominance of these latter two quite lacking! :p

    Looking for your Guardian Angel ... akin to Jesus' temptation in the wilderness??? Balderdash!!! WHAT ELSE would it be there for? OF COURSE we're supposed to look for it. But what on Earth do you plan to do when you FIND it? Why stop with the recognition and realization that MAN has a Spiritual Component, a Spark of the Divine within? Dare we actually SEEK ITS GUIDANCE? Well gee, I should hope so - unless we're quite content to utter vain repetitions, sip the communion wine, and cross ourselves until we're dizzy or turn blue in the face! :eek:

    Better to sit quietly, listening (as do the Quakers) for five minutes, than observe FIVE MONTHS of this formulaic foppishness. Why?

    Because what we will hear (as the trained Observer) - is not the voices of the multiform astral spirit guides, nor the fanciful demons and egregores of modern imagination (or its lack, television) ... but rather, the still small voice, as did even Socrates, a NON-Initiate. His daimon was not an unique occurrence in the spiritual life and experience of Humanity, but it is the RULE and the signal to the Individual that one's Conscience is present and SOUND ... this Universal Voice of Wisdom, which has led EVERY Saint and Saviour along the Path, from the earliest days - to the very end of days:
    From darkness to Light,
    From the unreal to the Real,
    From death to Immortality,
    And
    from ignorance to Wisdom. :)
    I do not disagree with your suggestions to tread softly and carefully as one journeys through the astral, Thomas. But we cross this bridge many times in a given day, and for the masses of Humanity, this is where consciousness itself is anchored!!! Not everyone has yet awakened to the magnetic influence of the mind, and deeper still, of Spirit Itself. But even as we do so, we find ourselves at a stage on the path, sooner or later, where even as the non-psychic, the astral becomes very real to us (in the experiential sense), and then it is something we MUST deal with! We cannot go around it, under it, or over it ... nor can we avoid it! We MUST go THROUGH it! And there is your 23rd Psalm, there the Presence of the Soul Itself which accompanies the Disciple or Initiate in whatever world he may choose to walk and Serve.

    The astral body of the Initiate (or Master), btw, is not the mass of swirling colors - even purified and beautiful colors - as is that of average Humanity. Rather, it is PURE WHITE LIGHT - even as the `White Light' of the Bardo (Thodol), for they are essentially one and the same. Anyone who wishes to truly understand the astral body, aura, and signficance of the colors, might want to borrow or purchase a copy of The Personal Aura, by Dora Kunz, available here on Amazon.com. It is the single BEST resource I've ever found on the subject using ordinary, non-technical language, which both describes in detail the meaning of what the author can see as a trained observer ... plus provides numerous clear & indicative illustrations. Other useful books exist, but none in my experience that come close to this one!

    Of course, on the subject of thought-forms, Leadbeater's book of the same title ... is seminal. Available at Barnes and Noble ...

    Namaskar,

    Andrew
     
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,739
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    I mean, come on, where's the black & white line which one can (or cannot) cross where his or thoughts suddenly become "of God?" I am curious, actually, to see how a seasoned Catholic would answer that.

    Oh, that's easy, when I'm thinking about God, I am thinking about God; when I'm thinking about lunch, I'm thinking about lunch; when I recite a prayer before lunch, I'm thinking about God, about me, and about creation ... but when one starts thinking about God, and ends up thinking about lunch, something has happened, a lapse of concentration ... the logismoi ... the egregore ... think of the Passion, when the disciples fell asleep ...

    No doubt there is an astral reason why they fell asleep, and I can easily understand that the power of Christ's concentration quite literally knocked them out ... but when He chided them, he was addresses not the physical (which sleeps), nor the astral (which dreams) ... but the soul, which never sleeps.

    is the fact that man can create spiritualized "thought-entities" (or thought-forms) because he has a `Higher' or Spiritual Nature (Present and Eternally Present because God-given, and not something with which the faithful are rewarded).

    I think you miss the distinction between between spirit and Spirit - spiritualised thought entitles are astral and psychic and from one's own being - the Spirit of which I speak is meta-human, so is no part of the human faculty - it does not belong to it by nature but by grace - the Christian mystics speak of being 'in the Spirit' - not in their own dreams or fantasies.

    For man to generate an entity he has to invest 'himself' - his own essence - in his fantasy, much as a man will work hard toward earning enough money to buy himself a yacht, a car, a woman, a company ... we might applaud his efforts, but a yacht won't get him through the pearly gates.

    Neither God nor His angels nor His powers lend themselves to fantasy.

    But my thoughts about Sacred Subjects, just as your thoughts about Sacred Subjects - are IDENTICAL

    ROTFL - Seriously - That no-one can think anything unless you thought it?
    I'd revise that opinion, if I were you... especially when it's patently obvious that we do not think alike.

    ... inasmuch as we both have equal potential to focus clearly, and imbue them with a positive life-force - characterized (or defined) by the selflessness, loving-kindness, or altruistic quality of the thinker in question.

    I could go to town on that one ...

    You're assuming that everyone is operating at their fullest potential, which I think the evidence of the world suggests otherwise. I would also say the potential of each individual is different, otherwise they would be no diversity in nature, or in spiritual charisms - and then there's how much effort a person makes to achieve that potential.

    And this is the science behind my statements, here and elsewhere, that God cares not whether a man is a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist, or a follower of so-called `New Age' or New Thought types of religion & spirituality.
    Well I would suggest your science is ill-founded. It's seeks to reduce all hierarchy to a flat plane and makes a nonsense of difference. I cannot ever conceive of God communicating to man, "yeah, whatever... "

    Each soul - each being - is unique, in my book.

    I bring this up as a matter of fact - and not as an expression of opinion at all.

    Then demonstrate your facts - you do seem to have a habbit of insisting things are facts because you say so - otherwise it remains your opinion.

    Sadly, there are those who might not understand this, but they may as well argue that the moon is made of swiss cheese!

    What, that because you say something, it's a fact?

    Ummm ... unless you're attempting to redefine the term `astral,' I don't think the first part of this is accurate at all, Thomas! "True religion is above the astral"??? I would agree with the sentiment, but technically speaking, most religion is PURELY astral!!!

    This, I think, is your perspective, and this is where you argue from. So anyone who puts 'God' in the sentence is religion. That's OK for you, perhaps, but it's wrong to assume that this applies in all cases, everywhere.

    It cannot be done ...
    In God, all things are possible.

    Looking for your Guardian Angel ... akin to Jesus' temptation in the wilderness??? Balderdash!!!
    I suggest you read the text, and consider my post, in that the Adversary was inviting Jesus to test God ...

    Thomas
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,739
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    "Be still, and know that I am God."

    A quick reflection on the above discussion between myself and Taijasi highlights, if noting else, a difference in view.

    To me, the teachings of the mystic is towards silence, stillness, 'being-in-God' and the cessation of all external interference - and nothing interferes more noisomely than ther astral's 'empty vessels'. This is what meditation teaches, this is what contemplation aspires to ... ignore it, move on ...

    Everything else is a diversion, and most of it invention, as everything lower than God is, to a greater or lesser degree, worldly ... this is the lesson of the Beatitudes.

    The Christian has his or her Master (and recollects the words of Jesus 'why callest thou me good? There is none good but God alone') - Likewise why callest anyone themselves 'master'? There is but one, and He is God.

    Thomas
     
  14. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Messages:
    2,924
    Likes Received:
    10
    This is a most interesting dialog betweenst the two of you. I'm enjoying it, so thanks!

    I must admit that I'm ever so tempted to write a long post on this subject, but the thing is, I would just be regurgitating things that I've read. My question to myself lately is: what do I actually know? And the answer is: not much. I built up a mass of knowlege over the years of intense study, but in the end I can't personally verify any of that stuff. I was searching for the key to understand myself and the world, and I found it, but what it did was unravel everything I had so carefully constructed. Kind of a Tower of Babel experience. I now find myself, to paraphrase Bob Dylan, "on the outside of whatever side there is."

    I seems to me from my own experience that my thoughts come from somewhere non-local to my brain. They're coming in from another location that my consciousness has residence in. Some of that stuff, I would bet, comes from memes that are part of mass consciousness, possibly playing out on the astral plane, I'm not sure. I don't know where the impulse to swim with the school, turn when they all turn kinda thing comes from. I do know that I can zap past all that stuff when I'm in a free-associational thought mode.

    I guess this is kinda boring on my part, sorry. Have either of you read Simulacra and Simulation, by Jean Baudrillard?

    Chris
     
  15. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,906
    Likes Received:
    0
    Very interesting. I'll have to mull all this over. Unlike China Cat, my thoughts about this stem almost entirely from experiences with little reading. Most of my reading has been in Christianity and sacred texts, with very little from esoteric teachings or anything of the sort. Forgive me if I am a bit dense and unlearned in these areas- I have studied more the texts describing others' experiences and reflect on my own than read about others' philosophies about all this and put together my own. I'll put in my 2 cents, though, I hope that it is at least entertaining!

    Being a Druid, I don't agree that humans and angels are presences, while the rest of the beings out there have little or no consciousness. I don't see religion as an evolutionary process, and I tend to find great wisdom, compassion, and goodness in the indigenous religions of the world, so I'm skeptical that they are lower somehow in their understanding of the supernatural than the modern world religions. I see shamans as being just as valid as priests, Buddhist monks, etc. And of course, since they are individuals, they can be just as delusional as any of us. Perhaps I'm just understanding you wrong, Thomas.

    From what I gathered, however, there was an outlining of a heirarchy of beings in your post, with humans and angels being self-aware and thus presences, whilst nature spirits ranged from semi-conscious animal awareness to raw energy without any consciousness at all. I agree that there are beings of pure energy, undirected and without will. Crystals do carry a certain resonance, though without what I'd understand as a personality. I agree that some beings are simpler than others, or perhaps, more adequately, that their current forms either limit their consciousness or reflect their inner state. But I don't think this is immutable nor do I think humans and angels are the only ones with consciousness. There are ancestral spirits and nature spirits who have consciouness and the capacity for communication. Of course, this is based on my experience. I cannot prove that such does not stem from imagination. But neither can anyone prove that God does not stem from imagination. We each make our distinctions, draw our lines about what is fantasy and what is reality, and there is no science to the matter, because we are not dealing with phenomena that can be observed and replicated by us all.

    I understand what you are saying about fae. I generally do not think of the spirits of plants and animals as having human forms. In my sacred wild grove, a bit of forest that is a power place, there are trees spirits, but they are trees. They are not humanoids in trees. I don't "see" them as anything, but rather sense the presence of presences other than my own. What I have often thought about fae, though it may be ill-founded, is that at least some fae are referring to conscious spirit (and sometimes physical) entities that live in natural, wild places, or whose gateways between their world and our own are in such places. But they are distinct from the spirits of the place itself- the trees, animals, flowers, and stones there. In my sacred grove, there are a variety of "little somethings," as I call them. I don't "see" them, but I perceive them, and photographs of the place will pick up various little human-like beings, believe it or not. People who have never seen the photos or the place before see them and ask how we did it. I never "saw" anything, only sensed presences, until the photos (and I still see nothing when I'm there in person). I don't communicate much with them, but that place is their home and I always greet them as I would a neighbor and thank them for letting me hang out. Basically, I treat such beings not as guides nor demons, but just as neighbors, with the same polite formality I would my fellow humans.

    Is it not possible that so many physicists are right- that there are other universes, other worlds? Is it not possible there are thin places that are gateways to other beings, though we do not currently possess the capacity to do more than sense the locations of such places, the energetic residues of connection?

    I believe we can create astral beings, of course- that thought-forms do exist and we can believe they are real when they are actually human-generated imaginings. But I also believe there are a variety of beings that are real, not the least of which are all the mundane beings we live with on a physical plane, who have their own sort of mind and soul. My horses are not human, but they are people- they are individuals in their own right, with distinct personalities and wills. And who am I to say they do not have philosophy? Perhaps it is just so different from my own that I am unable to converse adequately with them- just as many colonialists believed the human people they encountered were no more than animals, since they didn't wear European clothes and speak English or French. How can we know if we do not operate on the same prejudice when it comes to the rest of the beings in our world? That we fail to see their personhood simply because they lack humanity- their mind and outward form too different from our own for us to see how they really are? And, of course, it is infinitely easier to use them, exploit them, and ignore their needs if we see them as limited in their capacity for consciousness. One treats people, members of one's perceived society, quite differently than mere resources, created for human use rather than endowed with a purpose all their own.

    As for one's focus, I believe it is appropriate to be focused on God. Of course, this stems from my Christianity. My goal is to be in the Spirit, and I recognize Spirit indwelling as a gift of grace, whether or not I believe that it is unique to human beings. Christ is my guide, my counselor, my savior. When I meditate, I enter my inner grove with the desire to sit and wait for Christ. When I pray, I pray to God. I worship God alone.

    However, I believe the nature and ancestral spirits that I have always sensed, the spiritual and energetic beings that exist in life and even in non-life- these are my friends and fellow society. I do not blindly seek advice and wisdom from these beings, nor do I worship them. I commune with them as I do all other human persons- I give honor and respect where it is due, in gratefulness for their supportive role in our own existence on earth- just as I honor and respect my parents, close friends, and family. I enjoy their company (so long as they are decent folk) just as I enjoy the company of my human friends. Of course, discretion is necessary, and one should not follow any person (human or otherwise) without careful consideration, thought, prayer, and meditation. But to ignore them completely seems to make society very small, and my connection to this earth very limited. We are not to be of this world, but I understand the earth and the world to be two very different places.

    If many of these beings are of my own imagination, then that would be a great feat. I generally experience these beings before reflecting on what I am experiencing. I don't focus on this stuff- it just happens- and it has been so since I was a toddler. I don't claim that what I experience is reality- none of us really experience that, since we filter everything through the limitations of our brain, body, culture... but neither do I claim that it is fantasy. As all our experiences are, even the most mundane, it is a mix of both, perhaps. We create our reality, and it shapes us. Where is the boundary between fantasy and reality? It is more a fuzzy veil than a sharp line. A Social Distortion lyric comes to mind: "It's heaven and hell here; which one will we live today?"
     
  16. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Messages:
    2,924
    Likes Received:
    10
    In the realm of my own thoughts I don't worry about laying down hard lines on what is objectively "true". But I feel like when I write for public consumption I have some sort of obligation to state things that I think are universally true, or at least make a distinction between that and stuff that's for entertainment purposes only. But I don't want to constantly have to make caveats about the distinction between the two things. In my thought world "belief" doesn't have much currency. It's not necessary for me to believe that the way I'm organizing my thought hierarchies is universally true. I mean, we all construct our own personal myth for our own use. I borrow concepts from a wide variety of other belief systems and philosophies. I didn't make all of this stuff up myself, but I've chosen stuff that works for me. Still, I've made a major effort to empty my closet of second-hand stuff that doesn't serve my purpose, or that unnecessarily coddles my emotions in a way that undermines my intellectual independence.

    Chris
     
  17. moseslmpg

    moseslmpg Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think I may know what you mean about "skipping" the astral plane, but I think it comes across a little weird the way you put it. Do you mean that one should not dwell in the astral and try to "play God," but should rather reject the experiences and abilities that come with the astral and focus on moving up towards the spiritual realms? I agree with Taijasi, that one cannot actually skip the astral realm and that it is not a bad place in and of itself, but to stop there and focus on one's power in the astral is detrimental to spiritual development and potentially dangerous to those on the physical. I read something similar to this rejection of psychic abilities and even further the experience of being one with God/Source, etc. recently. With the rejection of the God experience you bypass even total unity and move into dissolution within the Not, etc.

    Anyway, now that I've posted my piece, can anyone give me some good resources on the astral, i.e. egregores and other fauna that reside there? I'm not talking about that New Age-y kind of stuff either (no offense), I mean something a little more grounded (again, no offense to anyone).
     
  18. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    No single resource, in 17+ years of study and meditation, has been nearly as helpful for me as C.W. Leadbeater's book, The Astral Plane. This is written by a trained, well-grounded clairvoyant (someone trained by a Master), and it is very thorough, taking a scientific and comprehensive approach. The language used, for the most part, is very down-to-earth and graspable, and the Sanskrit terms that you may encounter are easily referenced on the web.

    Another good book, a compilation of material by various Theosophical authors, is The Astral Body, by A.E. Powell. This may have a bit more teminology in it, and will require some additional reading & research. However, I have always regarded it as the "owner's manual" to the astral body ... and I treasure it enough to loan it my clairvoyant sister as a guide to help her sort through various experiences.

    Madame Alexandra David-Neel, in one of her books about travels through Tibet, describes the creation of a tulpa - the Tibetan word for thought-form, thought-creation, or egregore. Things got out of hand; it had to be destroyed. The Eastern Masters, on the other hand, know what They're doing, and utilize thought-forms regularly in the Service of Humanity. Advanced Initiates learn how to properly create, and control them. Then again, aren't we all? ;) :)

    If you want a good book about the firsthand experiences of a Virginia businessman, who suddenly found himself `lucid dreaming' in the astral world, get a copy of Journeys Out of the Body, by Robert Monroe. This book is excellent, perhaps unparalleled and invaluable, in that the author doesn't begin with a bunch of preconceptions, expectations and religious mumbo-jumbo. He just tells what he went through, AS IT OCCURRED, and his business background and scientific (even skeptical) mindset proved a tremendous asset. The experiences occurred in teh 60s or 70s I believe, long before the `New Age' stuff was even heard of, let alone in vogue.

    Leadbeater's Astral Plane is online, btw - here. (The table of contents follows a rather long introduction.)

    Namaskar,

    andrew
     
  19. moseslmpg

    moseslmpg Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks a bunch, Taijasi!

    Hey, while we're one the subject of creation of beings, do you think that perhaps golems and homunculi were really veiled references to the creation of egregore, albeit in terms of a physical being? I've always wondered about them, especially homunculi, since they are both supposed to run away from their masters after a time. The golem would be the egregore created through Kabbalistic means (permutations of the names of God, etc.) and the homunculi by way of the Hermetic science. What do people think?
     
  20. shaffy

    shaffy Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2019
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hello Thomas,

    Do you know why an egregore is used for black magic attacks? Dion Fortune mentioned it, about 1. telepathic hypnotic suggestion; 2. enforcing the telepathic hypnotic suggestion by evoking an Egregore that can create thoughtforms; 3. creating a magnetic switch or a contactpoint!

    Kind regards.
    Shaffy
     

Share This Page