The Walled Garden approach

InLove said:
To me, the problems on the LC board appear to be a matter of trying to define what a Liberal Christian really is. In my view, there have been some who have tried to participate there, in all sincerity, knowing that they do not exactly fit the fundamentalist profile, but who are Christians, nonetheless--even most traditional Christians would say so, with some reservations here and there.

The LC board, in my opinion, was brutal at first. But it has gotten a little better. I think that most of the members here who continue to make it home have realized that, just as in traditional Christianity, there is more than one flavor of liberalism. When we consider that to many a "conservative traditionalist", even the ecumenical view is liberal, then defining the terms "traditional" and "liberal" becomes even a more blurry endeavor. LOL--maybe we need another pidgeonhole--"moderate Christianity". But then we would still have to define that, and of course, there would be the argument that moderates were neither hot nor cold (which would not necessarily really be the case), and therefore....<sigh>.

InPeace,
InLove
Click to expand...

The problem is not the Liberal bent of some Christians (hell I'm liberal in alot of ways) :eek: . It is the radicals that come in and try to tear the place up (but call themselves liberal). then scream bloody murder when told to back off.

It's like Christianity is a magnet for those who want to go gunning for what they think are "stupid sheep", only to find out that most of them sheep have curled horns that hurt when knocked on the head with. "What? You can't stand your ground...you're a Christian! You're supposed to be easy pickings!???"

Christians are likened to Teddy Roosevelt's adage about America. Speak softly, but carry a big stick.

I think the two forums should be put back into one, where they both belong. But I think the fool who intends to disrupt the forum, or attack the members there would be in for a rude awakening.

Anyway, my two cents

v/r

Joshua
 
Quahom1 said:
The problem is not the Liberal bent of some Christians (hell I'm liberal in alot of ways) :eek: . It is the radicals that come in and try to tear the place up (but call themselves liberal). then scream bloody murder when told to back off.

It's like Christianity is a magnet for those who want to go gunning for what they think are "stupid sheep", only to find out that most of them sheep have curled horns that hurt when knocked on the head with. "What? You can't stand your ground...you're a Christian! You're supposed to be easy pickings!???"

Christians are likened to Teddy Roosevelt's adage about America. Speak softly, but carry a big stick.

I think the two forums should be put back into one, where they both belong. But I think the fool who intends to disrupt the forum, or attack the members there would be in for a rude awakening.

Anyway, my two cents

v/r

Joshua
Click to expand...



Many come in peace Q, but the defence system on the christianity board has become so tight it seems it only recognises attack.
I agree it would be better if the two boards were as one. We need patience and humility in the attempt of understanding.

- c -
 
They really wanted that board, too. {sigh}
Maybe "other sheep" might be a better term than "Liberal Christianity?"
John 10:16 said:
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
Click to expand...
 
Ciel said:
Many come in peace Q, but the defence system on the christianity board has become so tight it seems it only recognises attack.
I agree it would be better if the two boards were as one. We need patience and humility in the attempt of understanding.

- c -
Click to expand...

Hmm, I agree to a point. Patience yes. Humility...no. Defence of the Christianity board being tight...maybe, we'll see.

v/r

Joshua
 
I may ramble here a little--typing out loud, I suppose.

While I think it would be great if the two boards could reunite, I really think it may be too soon. I was not for the idea of the LC board at first, but there really are issues that can more easily be discussed there, and less disruptively than on the Christian board. For me, the LC has helped me understand what the questions are that many folks have on their minds. True, there will always be someone with an agenda to destroy, but most of the time, they seem to get tired of CR before too long--or they change.

There are some sincere folks there in LC. Many of them are my friends, and I understand their desire for a small garden to call home. And I enjoy being allowed to visit--if I overstep, they seem pretty kind, at least for now.

But I can also understand the analogy that Faithfulservant presented, which, by the way and in my opinion, did not call for the apology she made. It is the way she believes, and she makes no bones about it. And she has not gone into another's garden and started pulling up the plants.

And if the Liberal Christians kept going to Comparative Studies or Belief and Spirituality to discuss the attributes of Jesus, then that could overload those boards.

I think that perhaps things should stay the way they are, at least for now. I, um, do, um, however, um, wonder if there should be a subforum for Christian mysticism--which is not entirely the same as Esoteric. But I don't want to cause a fuss. Not going to campaign or anything.;)

InPeace,
InLove
 
Hi all :

I agree that oneness is the desired goal, but I don't see it as happening anytime soon. InLove you hit the nail on the head with your pitch for a garden for people who have had mystical experiences and base a large part of their beliefs upon that. I would put myself into that category, but I am not comfortable discussing my experiences in public. It gets to a point in your life that there is no one with whom you can trust such infomation. I've been there for about twenty years now.

If I were to post such information in the Abrahamic section, my beliefs would likely be attacked at worst and I'd become a target for some sort of conversion experience at best. Quoting Bible verses in response to novel visions is almost totally inapplicable as a response, but some here seem to have no other way to respond in such situations. That just seems to be the way that the Christianity garden operates on CR. At least in the LC or B&S sections I can refer to some of this stuff obliquely from time to time and sneak in some zingers under the radar. Those of us who have been routinely and unceasingly punished in hidden and open ways in the real world for our beliefs are very sensitive to these experiences, and the more it happens to us the more sensitized we become, basic psychology.

If one has had genuinely mystical life experiences, that person wishes to share them for the good of the effort towards onenness, but recurring attacks will always chill, slow, and stop the flow of information and revelation. And those who attack in such ways, whether or not intentionally, know that their ultimate purpose in doing this is simply to stifle innovative thought and cleave to the status quo of orthodoxy and fundamentalism. I personally believe that jealousy has a lot to do with what's going on in this regard.

flow....:cool:
 
flowperson said:
Hi all :

I agree that oneness is the desired goal, but I don't see it as happening anytime soon................I personally believe that jealousy has a lot to do with what's going on in this regard.

flow....:cool:
Click to expand...
And the little veiled jabs do so much for oneness.
As for jealousy...not sure what you think you have that us "status quo cleaving fundamentalist" could be jealous of?
 
flowperson said:
Hi all :

I agree that oneness is the desired goal, but I don't see it as happening anytime soon. InLove you hit the nail on the head with your pitch for a garden for people who have had mystical experiences and base a large part of their beliefs upon that. I would put myself into that category, but I am not comfortable discussing my experiences in public. It gets to a point in your life that there is no one with whom you can trust such infomation. I've been there for about twenty years now.

If I were to post such information in the Abrahamic section, my beliefs would likely be attacked at worst and I'd become a target for some sort of conversion experience at best. Quoting Bible verses in response to novel visions is almost totally inapplicable as a response, but some here seem to have no other way to respond in such situations. That just seems to be the way that the Christianity garden operates on CR. At least in the LC or B&S sections I can refer to some of this stuff obliquely from time to time and sneak in some zingers under the radar. Those of us who have been routinely and unceasingly punished in hidden and open ways in the real world for our beliefs are very sensitive to these experiences, and the more it happens to us the more sensitized we become, basic psychology.

If one has had genuinely mystical life experiences, that person wishes to share them for the good of the effort towards onenness, but recurring attacks will always chill, slow, and stop the flow of information and revelation. And those who attack in such ways, whether or not intentionally, know that their ultimate purpose in doing this is simply to stifle innovative thought and cleave to the status quo of orthodoxy and fundamentalism. I personally believe that jealousy has a lot to do with what's going on in this regard.

flow....:cool:
Click to expand...


Flow,

You've outgrown the fish bowl and the tank, Can I give you an ocean.....

Can we superseed it with love........


- c -
 
I'm not sure that "oneness" is the goal at CR. I think maybe it is something more along the lines of "harmony" in that we might be able to civilly discuss and respect one another's views, and come away understanding a bit more, even if we do not agree.

Also, when I alluded to a "Christian Mysticism" subforum, I really did not mean just Christian--I just said things wrong. If there was a mysticism board, I imagine that individual threads from any religious persuasion could co-exist. But then, that makes me an optimist first-class, doesn't it? Oh, well. :) Anyway, new subforums is not my department, and I know not really encouraged. I could make other suggestions--say, a place for folks to discuss the J.W. beliefs without a constant battle? Just wondering--can't help wondering. :)

But all this is academic, I think.

InPeace,
InLove
 
Thank you all for your responses.

Dor, your response that only chose to quote the first and last sentences in my post without engaging in rational discourse regarding the substance of the intervening eleven sentences speaks volumes about some CR participants' compulsions to engage in symbolic forms of attack in order to avoid meaningful and substantive discussion of the issues addressed. I still have some hope that your opinions might change in the future because IMO that's what moving forward in time as a responsible believer is all about.

flow....:cool:
 
flowperson said:
Hi all :

I agree that oneness is the desired goal, but I don't see it as happening anytime soon. InLove you hit the nail on the head with your pitch for a garden for people who have had mystical experiences and base a large part of their beliefs upon that. I would put myself into that category, but I am not comfortable discussing my experiences in public. It gets to a point in your life that there is no one with whom you can trust such infomation. I've been there for about twenty years now.

If I were to post such information in the Abrahamic section, my beliefs would likely be attacked at worst and I'd become a target for some sort of conversion experience at best. Quoting Bible verses in response to novel visions is almost totally inapplicable as a response, but some here seem to have no other way to respond in such situations. That just seems to be the way that the Christianity garden operates on CR. At least in the LC or B&S sections I can refer to some of this stuff obliquely from time to time and sneak in some zingers under the radar. Those of us who have been routinely and unceasingly punished in hidden and open ways in the real world for our beliefs are very sensitive to these experiences, and the more it happens to us the more sensitized we become, basic psychology.

If one has had genuinely mystical life experiences, that person wishes to share them for the good of the effort towards onenness, but recurring attacks will always chill, slow, and stop the flow of information and revelation. And those who attack in such ways, whether or not intentionally, know that their ultimate purpose in doing this is simply to stifle innovative thought and cleave to the status quo of orthodoxy and fundamentalism. I personally believe that jealousy has a lot to do with what's going on in this regard.

flow....:cool:
Click to expand...
Hey flow
I'm sorry for your experiences.
I'm not commenting on anyone on this forum (I don't think I know anyone well enough to do so) but I always thought the behavior you described had more to do with self-protection, than with jealousy.

Andy
 
Hi Cav:

I've got a pretty thick skin for a geezer, and not much here has threatened my sense of self so that I have had to go into a self-protective mode. And I sincerely hope that nothing i have written has caused others to do so.

No, I'm talking about experiences earlier in my life and apart from this rational and agreeable forum where and when I seemed to have always been under attack for some ill defined reasons. And it usually didn't have anything to do with what I did or said on a person to person basis, but more to do with what I have written and distributed elsewhere.

When one has mystical experiences he/she is compelled to share the information with others, and that inevitably steps on the toes of self-important and judgemental people. They seem to be compelled to exact measures of revenge upon you just for using your G-d -given talents, and then having the audacity to share what you create with others.

In looking at the motivations of the "other" that I perceive as having done these sorts of things I do not read it as a self-protective set of behaviors, such episodes would be entirely human and understandable. But I have sensed these episodes to be a profound disregard for my personhood and abilities. It has been hard not to take such episodes personally.

Thanks for your concern friend, but really, I'm mostly ok these days. I'm in a fairly good place compared to some I've been in during some of my past experiences.

flow
 
That's good
Perhaps this doesn't matter, but I always have a desire to clear up a possible misunderstanding. My comment about self-protectionism was in reference to the judgemental behavior.
 
flowperson said:
Thank you all for your responses.

Dor, your response that only chose to quote the first and last sentences in my post without engaging in rational discourse regarding the substance of the intervening eleven sentences speaks volumes about some CR participants' compulsions to engage in symbolic forms of attack in order to avoid meaningful and substantive discussion of the issues addressed. I still have some hope that your opinions might change in the future because IMO that's what moving forward in time as a responsible believer is all about.

flow....:cool:
Click to expand...

First sentence in a paragraph is the catch all. The rest of the paragraph is just gravy. Last sentence may or may not be a summation of the thought. But then you know that.

Dor isn't stupid, neither am I, or the rest who post here. Last time I checked, verbosity never amounted to much of anything, unless being a politician is part of the agenda...

v/r

Joshua
 
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InLove said:
I may ramble here a little--typing out loud, I suppose.

While I think it would be great if the two boards could reunite, I really think it may be too soon. I was not for the idea of the LC board at first, but there really are issues that can more easily be discussed there, and less disruptively than on the Christian board. For me, the LC has helped me understand what the questions are that many folks have on their minds. True, there will always be someone with an agenda to destroy, but most of the time, they seem to get tired of CR before too long--or they change.

There are some sincere folks there in LC. Many of them are my friends, and I understand their desire for a small garden to call home. And I enjoy being allowed to visit--if I overstep, they seem pretty kind, at least for now.

But I can also understand the analogy that Faithfulservant presented, which, by the way and in my opinion, did not call for the apology she made. It is the way she believes, and she makes no bones about it. And she has not gone into another's garden and started pulling up the plants.

And if the Liberal Christians kept going to Comparative Studies or Belief and Spirituality to discuss the attributes of Jesus, then that could overload those boards.

I think that perhaps things should stay the way they are, at least for now. I, um, do, um, however, um, wonder if there should be a subforum for Christian mysticism--which is not entirely the same as Esoteric. But I don't want to cause a fuss. Not going to campaign or anything.;)

InPeace,
InLove
Click to expand...

InLove, when were you not accepted into the Christian forum? In fact, when were the rest not accepted into the Christian forum? We did not say go away. Just that we don't accept certain tennants that others profess. We state such...

We aren't the ones who went away...

v/r

Joshua
 
I was thinking that a street preacher grudge match forum would be fun. Heckling would be encouraged.

Chris
 
Personally, I really dislike the way the entire Walled Garden approach has developed.

Originally, I felt it necessary for a young and growing board to protect the interests of individual groups, to make them feel better comfortable to participate.

However, now that the community is better developed, I see the Walled Garden approach as outgrown, and simply encouraging division - even sectarianism.

CR as a site overall has long been in need of an overhaul, and I'm hoping to approach that issue *very* soon. When I do, I'll likely re-arrange the boards somewhat, in order to present it as a learning resource through discussions of various faith issues.

The Liberal Christianity board will probably go, in order to avoid forcing any issue of members being placed in Liberal vs Conservative camps, but will try to ensure there's better room to accomodate the personal mystical experience, and humanist approaches.

Will also revisit the Code of Conduct. At present my impression is that
Code of Conduct + Walled Garden = stifled discussion

Will still have guidelines here, but I think CR really needs more of a "hands-off" approach to allow the community here to define itself, rather than be constrained on every slight issue.

In case anyone's noticed, this is precisely how we've been taking the boards the past few months - lower walls, less staff intervention, fewer removed posts and warnings, and greater freedom of expression for members.

I think it's working better, and hopefully will help smooth out some of the current tensions.

As ever, helping oversee a developing community has its challenges, and these develop with the community. All the more reason why I think the overall CR community as it is now needs approaches that work with current needs, rather than previous ones.

2c.
 
Quahom1 said:
InLove, when were you not accepted into the Christian forum? In fact, when were the rest not accepted into the Christian forum? We did not say go away.
Click to expand...
Yes Q, you moved one of my threads, tantamount to saying go away while you want to talk about this. It was a Christian topic, written by a Christian about the Christian God, I was asking Christians what they thought, it was not liberal, or mystical, it was Biblically based. Unfortunately it was not your brand of Christianity, so it was moved to Belief and Christianity.
I understand your reasons for moving the thread and, while I don't agree with them, I also don't have any argument with them. However, when you declare that you have never told anyone to go away, I find it a little irritating.
 
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