Word of God

Virtual_Cliff said:
I remember the first time I saw the great pyramid a Ghiza; I was going right past it in a minibus. When I was close up I looked out the window and saw something but I had no idea what I was looking at. It really is tremendously huge. When we'd travelled on I looked back and realised what I'd missed.
-VC
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Interesting analogy. How does it apply?
 
streetbob2006 said:
Not many other religons span back as far Historically as CHristianity does. (in judaism) It was not just started in 600 AD were there was nothing before it.
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Hi,

Not many perhaps. Aren't the Hindu Vedas considered to be the oldest religious texts? The oldest was apparently completed in about 1500 BCE, after composition over several hundred years, possibly after a long period of oral transmisssion.

s.
 
Thomas[/quote said:
Your original questions:
1. Consistently self-contradictory.
Biblical scholarship has covered this point in some depth. The various traditions that weave the stuff of Scripture have been highlighted, although there is still much work to be done.

2. The history is bogus.
Two points:
It is the perception by a people of God, and of the world, who did the best with what they knew.
Just over a century ago science insisted that Moses could not have written the Pentateuch because writing was not invented then ... then archeologists discovered writing older even than Moses ... all secular sciences are under revision ... in a few generations the science you live by will be deemed bogus ... and I bet most of what we understand as history would be ogus if we knew what was really going on...

3. The science is pure nonsense.
Ditto. When the inventor demonstrated the phonograph, scientists accused him of throwing his voice... And as science does not possess all the answers, it's not really in a position to make absolute statements.

4. None of the predictions have come true.
That's a matter of opinion.

5. I don't understand how the OT points to Jesus or the Christ, any more than Nostrodamus' writings point to "Hisler." Sure, after-the-fact the NT was written to try to tie into the OT, but so what?
If you don't understand, ask someone to explain. If you don't want to understand, don't vex yourself.

Thomas
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You're kinda slicing the onion thin here aren't you? I assume that you know what the consensus of biblical scholarship is, right? It may not be quite as minimalistic as the Copenhagen school, but it's very close. Moses is a mythological figure, and the "writings of Moses" weren't produced until at least the 9th centure BCE. And surely you don't believe that science will one day confirm that the sun actually stood still for Joshua. C'mon Thomas, why won't you state in plain language what you know, what your education has taught you? If belief relies on superstition and ignorance it can't be a healthy thing, can it?

Chris
 
Snoopy said:
Hi,

Not many perhaps. Aren't the Hindu Vedas considered to be the oldest religious texts? The oldest was apparently completed in about 1500 BCE, after composition over several hundred years, possibly after a long period of oral transmisssion.

s.
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Hey Snoopy,
What i meant was Judaism goes back to around 4500 BC during Abraham etc. The earliest evidence for the Hindu faith is around 3000 BC. As far as writings actually recovered you might be right, but the roots of Judaism go farther back.
 
Christianity seeks to appropriate Jewish tradition by prequelling itself into the Jewish foundational myths.

Chris
 
or it is true and the prophecies in the Old Testament about the coming messiah are right. Here are a few:

1- The "seed of a woman": Genesis 3:15.... Galatians 4:4.Jesus was born of Virgin Mary without any man involved in His conception (Is.7:14, Mat.1:23, Lk.1:27).
- Gen.3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
- Gal.4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law. (Luk.2:7; Rev.12:5)
2- Descendent of Abraham: Genesis 12:3, 18:18.... Acts 3:25, Matthew 1:1.- Gen. 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. (Gen. 12:3)
- Act. 3:25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, "Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed." (Mt.1:1; Lk.3:34) ​

3- Descendent of Isaac: Gen.17:19, Luc.3:34. - Gen.17:19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."
-Mt.1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers. (Lk.3:34)
4- Descendent of Jacob: Numbers 24:17...... Luke 3:34, Matt.1:2. - Num.24:17 I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth.
- Lk.3:34 The son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor. (Mt.1:2)
5-- From the Tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:33. - Gen.49:10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.
- Lk.3:33 The son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah. (Mt.1:2-3)
6- Hair of the Throne of David: Isaiah 9:7.... Luke 1:32-33. - Isa.9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. (Isa.11:1-5; 2Sam.7:13)
- Luk.1:32-33: He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." (Mt.1:1, 1:6)
Birth and Childhood:
7- Born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:2.... Matthew 2:1.... Luke 2:4-7. - Mic.5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from ancient times.
- Mt.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem. (Lk.2:4-7)
8- To be born of a Virgin: Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18.... Luke 1:26-35. - Isa.7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
- Mt.1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: his mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. (Lk.1:26-35)
9- Time of his birth: Daniel 9:25.... Luke 2:1:
- Dan.9:25 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens" and sixty two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
- Lk 2:1-2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was the governor of Syria.) (Lk 2:3-7)
- Mat.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
10- Slaughter of the Innocent children: Jeremiah 31:15.... Matthew 2:16-18.
- Jer.31:15 This is what the Lord says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."
- Mt.2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. (Mt 2:16-18)
11- Flight to Egypt: Hosea 11:1.... Matthew 2:14-15. - Hos.11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son
- Mt.2:14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt. (Mt 2:15)
12- He shall be called a Nazarene: Judges 13:5.... Matthew 2:23.- Jud.13:5 for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God
- Mt.2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene
Passion:
13- Triumphal entry in Jerusalem on a donkey: Zechariah 9:9.... John 12:13-14. - Zec.9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Isa.62:11)
- Jn.12:13-14 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written. (Mt.21:1-11; Jn.12:12, Mk.11:7-9.)
14- Entry through the "Golden Gate", that shall be shut for ever after his entrance: Ezekiel 44:1-2.... Mark 11:7-8.
On Palm Sunday Jesus entered Jerusalem through the Golden Gate. When you go to Jerusalem look at the Golden Gate, it is shut with stone and cement, and with a Muslim cemetery in its front, through which a Jewish Messiah will never pass.
- Ez.44:1-2 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD , the God of Israel, has entered through it.
- Mk.11:7-8 When they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their cloaks over it, he sat on it. Many people spread their cloaks on the road, while others spread branches they had cut in the fields.
15- Betrayed by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12, Psalm 41:9... Mark 14:10, Matthew 26:14-15.- Ps.41:9 Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
- Mk.14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. (Mt.26:14-16; Mk.14:43-45)
- Zec.11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. (Zec.11:13)
- Mt.26:15 And asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. (Mt 27:3-10) ​
 
It's not difficult to write a mythology around an older mythos so that the older appears to be fulfilled prophetically in the new. The intellectually honest path is to consider the older material in it's original context, and then decide if the new material supports that context.

Chris
 
streetbob2006 said:
which it does
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Really? You've carefully, critically, and objectively examined the source material for these prophetic tie-ins you present, and you're satisfied that the original context has been preserved? Or did you begin with a hypothesis and make the facts fit a conclusion you'd already arrived at? Be honest now: did you?

Chris
 
Hey Chris,

The only reason I used a link is so I would not have to type them all out and yes I have studied these things and pretty content with context, content, and the conclusion. Have you also truly studied it and came to the conclusion that it is a myth and should be dismissed? Or did you also make facts fit a conclusion that you had already arrived at?
 
streetbob2006 said:
Hey Chris,

The only reason I used a link is so I would not have to type them all out and yes I have studied these things and pretty content with context, content, and the conclusion. Have you also truly studied it and came to the conclusion that it is a myth and should be dismissed? Or did you also make facts fit a conclusion that you had already arrived at?
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Steetbob,

The link's odds specified on the first page is based on the assumption that the NT was accurately recorded and not made to purposely agree with the OT by those in control. Now I examined the #1 prophecy and find it in obvious error even after going back to a Jewish Bible to double check. That puts a different light on the subject. Your conclusion and assumption of accuracy of prophecies is based on a conclusion that was biased by your starting belief that there was no attempt on the NT writers part or the persons responsible for its inclusion in the Bible to make it agree. So of course it would seem like a logical conclusion.

One must approach each prophecy without assumption that the content of the OT or NT is correct or in error to start with and then check out all sources available to reach an unbiased conclusion. The first one need not go any further than the data found within the OT and NT itself with reference to a Hebrew dictionary to spot its obvious error.

Just something to consider for yourself concerning the first prophecy that may give you a different perspective.

Love in Christ,
JM
 
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JosephM said:
Steetbob,

The link's odds specified on the first page is based on the assumption that the NT was accurately recorded and not made to purposely agree with the OT by those in control.


Hey Joesph,

Most scholars believe that the bible is the most accurate book from antiquity. There are over 25000 manuscripts of the New Testament in our hands dating within 200 years of the orginal documents so going back as close to the first century. Do you believe in the Trojan wars? There is only 8 documents recording the stories written 1000 years after the fact, yet scholars still take it as fact. THis is just an example.
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"Your conclusion and assumption of accuracy of prophecies is based on a conclusion that was biased by your starting belief that there was no attempt on the NT writers part or the persons responsible for its inclusion in the Bible to make it agree. So of course it would seem like a logical conclusion."

What would be the motive? So Peter could be hang on a cross upside down? So Paul could get his head cut off? What is his gain? So some could be stoned and pulled in half be horses? Whipped and hung? Burned at the stake be nero in 70AD. These people knew Christ on a personal level and seen the risen CHrist and died gruesome deaths and not one recanted? What did they gain? nothing...there is no motive.

On top of that some non believers back in the day could of said "hey he was not born in Bethelem, whats the deal? Here is the census! or the romans could of said "here is the body of Jesus" the whole movement would of been stopped. yet history is silent! This is the tip of the Iceberg! There is over 100 prophecies on Christ alone. History is silent on all of them.

Jesus himself said "all scripture must be fulfilled". He either is Lord, liar, or lunatic.
 
streetbob2006 said:
"Your conclusion and assumption of accuracy of prophecies is based on a conclusion that was biased by your starting belief that there was no attempt on the NT writers part or the persons responsible for its inclusion in the Bible to make it agree. So of course it would seem like a logical conclusion."

What would be the motive? So Peter could be hang on a cross upside down? So Paul could get his head cut off? What is his gain? So some could be stoned and pulled in half be horses? Whipped and hung? Burned at the stake be nero in 70AD. These people knew Christ on a personal level and seen the risen CHrist and died gruesome deaths and not one recanted? What did they gain? nothing...there is no motive.

On top of that some non believers back in the day could of said "hey he was not born in Bethelem, whats the deal? Here is the census! or the romans could of said "here is the body of Jesus" the whole movement would of been stopped. yet history is silent! This is the tip of the Iceberg! There is over 100 prophecies on Christ alone. History is silent on all of them.

Jesus himself said "all scripture must be fulfilled". He either is Lord, liar, or lunatic.
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The gain was not to Paul or Peter. They never submitted his letters to be formed into a Bible. They showed up hundreds of years later to be formed into a NT by organized religion and if you study history, the churches fought numerous battles to arrive at what they did. They were still split on the final version and there are over 40 versions in existance today that went through more than one translation and app 14 different books removed that were included in versions as late as the 1600's.

One thing you forget streetbob, Your quote "When Jesus himself said" , when he is recorded having said that it did not apply to what we have today in the Bible. There was no New Testament except written on mens hearts. Also you use false logic in your last statement. You again assume what they had then was exactly what we have now and that the record you are reading is totally accurate in translation and content. He is neither liar nor lunatic but that doesn't make the record of what he is recorded saying that is in existance today in your language 100% accurate. That is my only point.

Also, I previously mentioned that the first prophecy you mentioned fulfuilled from the other site was in error. Would be happy to supply you with the why's if you wish.

Love in Christ,
JM
 
streetbob2006 said:
JosephM said:
Steetbob,

The link's odds specified on the first page is based on the assumption that the NT was accurately recorded and not made to purposely agree with the OT by those in control.
Click to expand...

Hey Joesph,

Most scholars believe that the bible is the most accurate book from antiquity. There are over 25000 manuscripts of the New Testament in our hands dating within 200 years of the orginal documents so going back as close to the first century. Do you believe in the Trojan wars? There is only 8 documents recording the stories written 1000 years after the fact, yet scholars still take it as fact. THis is just an example.
Click to expand...

Streetbob,

I guess a lot depends on which scholars you ask. Christian scholars would of couse agree with your statement. Scholars and historians that have studied the Bible without a Christian bias may not agree with your statement. From what I know of history, I would say that even the history of the trojan wars have errors in them. Modern history teachers themselves will tell you that what we teach in schools is not always an accurate portrayl of what happened. ie; civil war, indian war, civil right etc etc. Even history is slanted.
Men perceive things differently and from different points of view. In my view, As long as men write books, there will be errors.

Peace,
JM
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Well, Snoopy, China Cat Sunflower and Joseph M are doing a much better job discussing the historical compiling of the physical book than I would have done, so unless juantoo3 is ready to support his/her ad hominem, I'm off to another thread!
 
"The gain was not to Paul or Peter. They never submitted his letters to be formed into a Bible. They showed up hundreds of years later to be formed into a NT by organized religion and if you study history, the churches fought numerous battles to arrive at what they did. They were still split on the final version and there are over 40 versions in existance today that went through more than one translation and app 14 different books removed that were included in versions as late as the 1600s"

Hey Joesph, I wonder were you are getting this. In the bible itself Peter calls Pauls letters scripture 2 Peter 3:16. They are also read at church col 4:16 and public worship rev 3:1. You probobaly are saying but they were written later. We have the unical manuscripts that date back to 200 AD. Minuscule manuscripts written around 900; 8000 copies of the Latin Vulgate and some written in ECoptic. WE also have Lexionaries which are books used for public readings with corresponding paralell verses for cross reference to other scripture. We also have nontextual scripture written on pottery etc by the poor dating back to the early church which if all the written manuscripts were taken away there would be enough of these nontextual items to reconstruct almost the whole New Testament!
 
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