HOT, YES running Jews for Jesus ads

when angels appeared to the shephards and told them the saviour is born, they went out spreading the good news; when jesus told his disciples i will make you fishers of men, well there are many instances where the holy spirit moves man to spread the gospel; that is evangelism, that is christianity. spreading the gospel for all those who hunger whether young, or old, those that desire it will accept it, and i see nothing wrong with that, for salvation is for all people and is a calling to many christians by the spirit of god.
 
Hi All!

I am intrigued by this conversation because of something I heard from a Missionary Baptist pulpit. The pastor there said something like this: “I do not understand those who call themselves “completed Jews” because they have accepted Jesus Christ. If one becomes a Christian, then he is a Christian, not a Jew.”

I personally (as dauer and bananabrain can attest) have a very limited understanding of the Jewish faith, but the pastor who spoke these words understands it very well and (please don’t laugh here) one of his best friends is an Orthodox Rabbi. So I am thinking that he must know something of which he speaks.

I’m not here to say I know anything really about it. I will say that I have enjoyed listening to certain folks from Jewish backgrounds who call themselves Christians as well, but I always remember what that pastor had to say.

2c.

InPeace,
InLove
 
patti,

This is ridiculous.

You quoted my entire response to you, which contained multiple and unrelated statements. Not quite sure what you think is ridiculous.

Dauer
 
It appears to me is the issue of covert operations and the undercover ascpect.

Amway and other multi-level marketers try to distance themselves from their roots to gain converts...

Jews for Jesus are Christians trying to masquerade as Jews in order to get more Jews to become Christian.

I prefer the Baptists, JW, Mormons (but aren't they changing their name again?) Who come out and say who they are....
 
Jews for Jesus are Christians trying to masquerade as Jews in order to get more Jews to become Christian.

Perhaps when you refer to converting, but in the larger scheme of things that statement feels demeaning to me.

I've met some JFJ, while it is true that one of their main concerns is to "save" other Jews, rightly or wrongly that is what they believe genuinely.
They are also proud of their Jewish heritage, and in fact some are more interested in all things Jewish after accepting Jesus.
Some evangelicals believe (again rightly or wrongly) that Jews that accept Jesus hold both the covenants and the promises of both worlds.

I know a couple of american missionaries of Jewish lineage that have moved to Israel, after fighting the government in the courts because as christians they are unwanted.
Yes to convert..... and yes to bring healing and wholeness to broken people.
I think this is the side of missionary work that is sometimes ignored.

I know other couple of american missionaries in Czech, that have also helped and blessed so many broken people. You know, they may even be supportive of the war in Iraq, and I may not agree with some of their beliefs, but the bottom line is that they do much more good than harm.
As for myself I may have more "sensible" beliefs than them, but I am nowhere near their toes in terms of blessing mankind.

Now, I know some proselytisers are interested only in numbers, some in manipulating and controlling, but there are a few that are genuinely interested in the people they meet.
They might not be enlightened mystics living in a cave, but they put their love into action.

I know it is unpleasant to be in the receiving side of some proselytisers.
And don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Jews or anybody else needs to convert to christianity or anyother religion.
But sometimes, people may show up in your life with just what you need.
 
They are also proud of their Jewish heritage, and in fact some are more interested in all things Jewish after accepting Jesus.
My objection is the covert aspect...now if I am wrong I'd love to know. The name implies that they are Jews who have accepted Jesus. And if they are doing well in their conversions that should exactly be what their numbers show.

But as I have heard (heresay I'll admit) that the vast majority are folks that were raised Christian that have joined the group specifically to help with this missionary venture. It is my understanding that their increase in numbers is not Jewish converts but again more Christians joining to take part in the movement.

Now I am a Christian that thoroughly enjoys studying with Jews, learning about the stories that surround our old testament, learning their beliefs in regards to their stories, and attending the synagogue for services to learn more. I guess I'm a Christian for Judaism...maybe I should start a group CfJ...

Jesus comes up sometimes in our discussions, and I'd be more than happy to tell them more of my thoughts...but that is not why I am there, I study because it is our roots, Jesus studied all their books, heard all their stories...we get a very small portion of that in our old testament. At times I have felt a concern that I may have another motive for learning, attending, studying with Jews...ie converting them, it hinkders communication and the process when that is playing in the background...
 
sometimes i get upset when i see commercials targeted at gen-x. they will use songs from our youth (the cure, the ramones, etc.) in commercials to help sell their techy product, and try to convince us this is what we need. but you know some gen-x people like me don't like being sold to much, and we certainly do not like sell-outs (musically speaking). so sometimes i take it personally, i totally tune the message and product out, but i really shouldn't. the product is probably really good, and the band is probably really happy they are making money, and im just left with personal feelings that no one really cares about.
i think anyone that wants to be successful is going to use marketing strategies. no one who has something to offer wants to use a plan that is going to fail. so some people might personally be upset about the evangelism "jews for jesus", and try to say its covert or its targeting the weak, etc. but the message of love and grace is good, and many people are happy with the knowledge of the gospel and want to share it with others out of love, and those with a willing mind and open heart hear the message of salvation and want to have a personal relationship with god, and those negative defensive feelings at how its being presented might actually get in the way and cause one to miss a good thing when it presents itself.
 
Kindest Regards, pattimax!

That is completely false. Where are you getting your information?
From direct "in the field" observation.

The Old Testament is prophecy concealed, and the New Testament is prophecy revealed.
Concealed from whom? Revealed to whom? I understand Old Testament prophecy probably better than I do New Testament prophecy, and if one were to ask a Jewish person, I think one might find the OT prophecies are understood relatively well (at least as well as Christians understand Revelations). Of course, the Jewish conclusions over OT prophecies are just a bit different than the Christian conclusions, but I suppose that is to be expected.
 
Kindest Regards, all!

I am thinking that a lot of the issue revolves around whether or not a particular Christian believes a Jew is saved or not by virtue of being Jewish. Now, for initial clarification, I am *not* speaking here of "token" Jews any more than I am of "token" Christians, those who are so only in name, not attitude and action. That is to say, as I continue, I am speaking of those both Christian and Jewish who are sincere in their attempt to observe their respective faiths.

So, if a Christian views a Jew as unsaved, then I could see why the emphasis on trying to "save" them from themselves. A lot of sincere Christians take the commission to carry the Word of G-d to the ends of the earth quite seriously. Indeed, this very commission is at the political root of many, many wars of western expansion across Europe and both Americas. Some well meaning individuals, or so it seems, take this commission above all other aspects of the teachings of Christ. "All you've got to do is hear, and by hearing believe!"

As a consequence, you have the priests following behind the armies of Charlemagne lining up the leftover survivors of the Holy Roman Empire's war of attrition on the European continent on the edge of a stream. The priests then would "bless" the waters upstream and herd these casualties of war through the stream, upon which these pagans are now baptised as Christians! Viola! The problem is, these peoples returned to their hovels in the midst of nowhere and continued on as they had for hundreds if not thousands of years. Nevermind the fact that pagan tradition was already well inserted into Christian ritual by adopting pagan religious symbology and attaching Christian meanings to them. Christmas? Easter? Sunday? HALLOWEEN??? I can go on...but I suspect that most Christians already will try to deny or sugar-coat the reality I just presented. And it is not "my" reality, it is historical fact.

Yet, I also believe "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." I also believe "my boss is a Jewish carpenter."

Christianity has nothing historically in its favor to make it any better than Judaism. Nothing. I find it a remarkable *miracle* that G-d favored the Jews enough to provide and protect them through the better part of two thousand years of Diaspora. I find it nothing short of miraculous that in 1948, the nation of Israel was restored after nearly two thousand years of falling to the wayside and becoming a desolate place. I find it nothing short of miraculous that Israel survived the first 48 hours of its inception, when all hell broke loose and every Muslim nation surrounding it pounced, to no avail. I find it nothing short of miraculous that Israel has survived, what?, 3 or 4 more attempts since then to overthrown it, and G-d has prevailed! HalleluJah!

G-d would not intervene in such a way for any nation that was not, at its core, blessed by Him. Indeed, Israel's history and resurrection is unique in the annals of the whole world's history. Christianity should consider itself blessed to be related to such evidence of the power of G-d's mighty hand at work!

And yet, there are well meaning but misguided Christians who believe Jews are not saved??? G-d would not work such a powerful work through the damned!

The most powerful witness a Christian can provide to anybody, is to live the example. The words that come from a man's mouth can mean much, or they can mean little, and it is difficult to know at the time which. But to live an example speaks far more than any collection of words. If the commission is to spread the Word of G-d, then it should be (in my opinion) by example, not by bullhorn and bullet. And funny, but if one only cares to take a look around, it seems other sincere people of faith, faiths other than Christianity and Judaism, have reached largely the same conclusions on their own. Gee, G-d doesn't make any junk...how about that!

Once again...it is not "what" we know, it is what we "do" with what we know.

A person can have a library of esoteric BS memorized and available on command...and it will serve them no purpose if they do not put it to practical use. A Christian can memorize the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelations and quote chapter and verse for every situation, and it will serve them no purpose if they do not put it to use. Conversely, a person with a very low IQ can live the example without uttering a sound, and that person will have grace and favor in G-d's eyes.

If a Jewish person were not living to the ideals of Judaism, then I can see a well-meaning Christian sharing wisdom of the faith in an effort to spare a brother or sister from the wrath of G-d's judgement. Likewise, I can understand a well-meaning Jew sharing wisdom with a Christian who is not living up to the ideals of the Christian faith. But the ideals of both faiths...and I dare add most of the other world faiths...are very much the same. These are the "laws written on our hearts." All the rest is commentary, to borrow the famous phrase, regardless of religious tradition and sacred texts.

Now, my words may rattle some hardcore Christians, and that's fine. You will continue as you will. You serve your place and your purpose in G-d's plan, and I serve mine. I have no desire to convert anybody to "my" way of seeing things. It is not my way that I follow.
 
Christianity has nothing historically in its favor to make it any better than Judaism.
the first thing that comes to my mind is salvation of man by way of the cross, it is for all who seek the lord (john 3-16) and call on him, because before christians, they are those that have known the hidden things in god thru his son that shares the name yahweh. its not a matter of one religion being better over another, it is a matter of loving others so they are rebuked or punished at judgement. although in my view, the way of christianity is right, there is no doubt in my mind that others love god just the same and that isn't anything that needs to be changed in that respect.
 
Kindest Regards, pattimax!


From direct "in the field" observation.

It would seem that your field needs to be broadened. I've only been a Christian a short time, but in that time (3 years)I have spent most of my time learning and absorbing the beautiful things that a life in Christ has to offer.

"A lot of that seems to be because of an inordinate emphasis on the New Testament at the expense of the Old Testament (oh, the law was done away with...). "...That is not even close what the truth is. The only thing that the Old Testament has done away with are dead sacrifices.

Romans 12:1-2
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual£ act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

 
Kindest Regards, pattimax!


Concealed from whom? Revealed to whom? I understand Old Testament prophecy probably better than I do New Testament prophecy, and if one were to ask a Jewish person, I think one might find the OT prophecies are understood relatively well (at least as well as Christians understand Revelations). Of course, the Jewish conclusions over OT prophecies are just a bit different than the Christian conclusions, but I suppose that is to be expected.

Geetings Juan2-3,

Prophecies concealed in the OT are revealed in the NT. The propecies made in the NT are fulfilled in Revelation. I suppose they are for anyone who truly wants to study, contemplate, and understand the Word of God.

One of the reasons why Jewish conclusions are different than Christian conclusions is that Jews only relate to part of the story. (which is probably why some are so down on Messianic Jews)

sincerely, Karen
 
patti,

You quoted my entire response to you, which contained multiple and unrelated statements. Not quite sure what you think is ridiculous.

You are sadly mistaken if you are relying on the interfaith community for opinions. I suppose I should have included the words sad and heartless, also.
 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. John 10:16.

How does this fit in with the discussion?
[/FONT]
 
Beautiful, Prober! :)

This is one of my favorite, and also John 10:14:
"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."
These verses say to me that Christ is known to people of every faith, of every religious tradition, of every background - even agnostic ... so long as one's heart is pure, so long as we seek to walk in the Light, and especially if we go about, helping others and seeking to do Good, even as did Christ Jesus.

To me, this is what being Christian is all about, and this is why no matter what a person calls him or herself on the outside, God, expressed via the 2nd person - the Christ, knows his own.

Thus many who happily call themselves `christian,' easily fit the description of those whom Christ knows to be otherwise ... while many thousands - even millions (?) in this world, are more Christian than those who call themselves so, if we use the above general definition.

But this is speaking strictly in terms of morality, and is not meant to dismiss outward observances ... which also have their importance and place.

The same argument, along the lines of morality, could be made so as to indicate that many people are quite `Buddhist,' inasmuch as they follow the virtuous path of morality as taught by the Buddha - the Noble Eightfold Path - even if they have never even HEARD of this path, or the Buddha, or Buddhism. ;)

And so, too, with all religious traditions. But by observance, we say, "this man is a Christian, this woman a Buddhist, this man a Jew," and so on. So the lines are blurred, and I doubt very seriously that God insists on putting people in neat little boxes the way we do! :rolleyes:

But for some, religion is simply another part of ego identity, and there is much pride in it, as well as meaning, even what seems to be a necessary part of one's character ... while I think the only person, or Being, to Whom and which we are accountable, is God. The real question is then, can we learn to - or to what extent do we already - SEE, or recognize, the Divine in our Brother. {For if we do, then this makes us accountable to him (or her), too. ;)}

And if the Jew can't see that in the Christian, and vice versa, then no wonder one wants to preach to the other, and seek to witness to him, or whatever. I think if I were a Jew, I'd pretty much see this whole thing as pure proselytism, plain & simple ... like someone tryiing to sell me a prosthetic hand, even as I sat there listening to the salesman droll on, with my hands already folded, in prayer. :eek:

~Zag
 
To me, this is what being Christian is all about, and this is why no matter what a person calls him or herself on the outside, God, expressed via the 2nd person - the Christ, knows his own.

Thus many who happily call themselves `christian,' easily fit the description of those whom Christ knows to be otherwise ... while many thousands - even millions (?) in this world, are more Christian than those who call themselves so, if we use the above general definition...

...And so, too, with all religious traditions. But by observance, we say, "this man is a Christian, this woman a Buddhist, this man a Jew," and so on. So the lines are blurred, and I doubt very seriously that God insists on putting people in neat little boxes the way we do...

...The real question is then, can we learn to - or to what extent do we already - SEE, or recognize, the Divine in our Brother. {For if we do, then this makes us accountable to him (or her), too. ;)}

And if the Jew can't see that in the Christian, and vice versa, then no wonder one wants to preach to the other, and seek to witness to him, or whatever. I think if I were a Jew, I'd pretty much see this whole thing as pure proselytism, plain & simple ... like someone tryiing to sell me a prosthetic hand, even as I sat there listening to the salesman droll on, with my hands already folded, in prayer. :eek:

~Zag

So therefore..."[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us..."[/FONT]
 
patti,

You are sadly mistaken if you are relying on the interfaith community for opinions. I suppose I should have included the words sad and heartless, also.

I am not sure why you would include the word heartless there. It's the interfaith community, people from different backgrounds coming together for the sake of understanding, mutual respect, and tolerance.

Dauer
 
patti,



I am not sure why you would include the word heartless there. It's the interfaith community, people from different backgrounds coming together for the sake of understanding, mutual respect, and tolerance.

Dauer

Evangelistic Christians along with Jews are coming together to heal relations. "Heartless" was referring to the post having to do evangelical Christianity. Israel is very important.
 
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