HOT, YES running Jews for Jesus ads

[pattimax]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. John 10:16.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]How does this fit in with the discussion?[/FONT]

That fits in just fine. Is Jesus Christ not Lord?

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Blazn!

the first thing that comes to my mind is salvation of man by way of the cross, it is for all who seek the lord (john 3-16) and call on him,

Indeed. They are those who are called Christian.

because before christians, they are those that have known the hidden things in god thru his son that shares the name yahweh. its not a matter of one religion being better over another, it is a matter of loving others so they are rebuked or punished at judgement.

By chance, did you mean to say "it is a matter of loving others so they are *not* rebuked or punished at judgement? As far as one religion over another, that is the thing...how many people do that very thing? Shopping around for which religion is the "right" one, which one gets more brownie points? People looking at the words and arguing over letters on a page...instead of applying the lessons being taught.

although in my view, the way of christianity is right, there is no doubt in my mind that others love god just the same and that isn't anything that needs to be changed in that respect.

A person must find "right" in their chosen walk, else why walk that walk? Unless that person is in it for reasons of popularity or social exposure...which to me is so contrary to what the purpose of "church" is.

Jesus' teachings are the right way...for Christians. Just as Abraham, Jacob amd Moses' teachings are the right way for Jews. Now, even logically, from a Christian perspective I can see where Christians might be able to develop a case towards any other faith. But to suggest that Judaism is wrong / misguided / false or somehow just not up to snuff with G-d...is to undermine the very foundation that Christianity rests on. Take away Judaism, and Christianity has no past, and no family, other than its forced cohabitation with paganism. If Judaism is not right in the eyes of G-d, then neither is Christianity...else there is no G-d. Logically.

 

[juantoo3]

It would seem that your field needs to be broadened.

Perhaps. That is always a possibility.

That is not even close what the truth is.

Perhaps. I was deemed a heretic by some long before we met, and I will likely be deemed heretical long after we part. I follow no man when it comes to my soul. I trust no one but G-d. If that is heretical, then I will die an heretic.

Romans 12:1-2
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Yes, let's please do turn to Romans:

Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Romans 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

Romans 12:11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;

Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

Romans 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

Romans 12:15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

Romans 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Max Ehrman in that wonderfully spiritual poetic piece titled "Desiderata" quoted this last line almost verbatim. The balance here is pretty well summed up in the first line quoted: "Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good." Can any among us in good faith deny this entire passage in spirit among other major faith walks? All devout peoples, seeking to rejoin with that they instinctively intuit, reverberate with these same thoughts and feelings...Paul is telling us nothing new. Paul is merely opening our eyes to the fact we are not alone!

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Hmmm, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile.

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Speaks for itself, doesn't it?

Now, the moment we have all been waiting for...my repetitive mantra I keep harping on about...

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 2:14* For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )*

Now, what was that about Paul preaching "all you've got to do is believe?" How about "ones works are as filthy (menstruation) rags?" How about "saved by grace, so none should boast?"

Raspberries! Right here Paul points out, in agreement with James and the Great White Throne Judgement of Revelations, that works are crucial. The work of the law, working righteousness, the justified man is the working man, the working man is justified. Jesus' words are held up as well, when He said "I have not come to do away with the law...". The Gentiles, having not the law, are a law unto themselves...written on their hearts!!!

Thank you, Timothy McVeigh, for showing me the light.

 

[pattimax]

But to suggest that Judaism is wrong / misguided / false or somehow just not up to snuff with G-d...is to undermine the very foundation that Christianity rests on. Take away Judaism, and Christianity has no past, and no family, other than its forced cohabitation with paganism. If Judaism is not right in the eyes of G-d, then neither is Christianity...else there is no G-d. Logically.

Define "up to snuff."
John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[juantoo3]

Define "up to snuff."
John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

To whom did G-d give Adam? To whom did G-d give Noah? To whom did G-d give Abraham? To whom did G-d give Jacob? To whom did G-d give Moses?

 

[pattimax]

Perhaps. That is always a possibility.
Good, you understand


Perhaps. I was deemed a heretic by some long before we met, and I will likely be deemed heretical long after we part. I follow no man when it comes to my soul. I trust no one but G-d. If that is heretical, then I will die an heretic.



Yes, let's please do turn to Romans:

Max Ehrman in that wonderfully spiritual poetic piece titled "Desiderata" quoted this last line almost verbatim. The balance here is pretty well summed up in the first line quoted: "Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good." Can any among us in good faith deny this entire passage in spirit among other major faith walks? All devout peoples, seeking to rejoin with that they instinctively intuit, reverberate with these same thoughts and feelings...Paul is telling us nothing new. Paul is merely opening our eyes to the fact we are not alone!


Hmmm, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile.


Speaks for itself, doesn't it?

Now, the moment we have all been waiting for...my repetitive mantra I keep harping on about...


Now, what was that about Paul preaching "all you've got to do is believe?" How about "you works are as filthy (menstruation) rags?" How about "saved by grace, so none should boast?"

Raspberries! Right here Paul points out, in agreement with James and the Great White Throne Judgement of Revelations, that works are crucial. The work of the law, working righteousness, the justified man is the working man, the working man is justified. Jesus' words are held up as well, when He said "I have not come to do away with the law...". The Gentiles, having not the law, are a law unto themselves...written on their hearts!!!

Thank you, Timothy McVeigh, for showing me the light.

 

[juantoo3]

Now, now...you might feign ignorance for others, I know you know full well what I am talking about. I've been singing the same tune for many, many years now.

 

[pattimax]

To whom did G-d give Adam? To whom did G-d give Noah? To whom did G-d give Abraham? To whom did G-d give Jacob? To whom did G-d give Moses?

Adam gave into sin.
After the ark, Noah became an alcoholic.
Abraham was indeed righteous. God gave him a nation. (It started with Isaac at the age of 80.)
Jacob was a thief.
Moses did not go ino the promised land. He was a VERY good man, just not fully obedient)

Jesus Christ, Gods only begotten son, was tempted in every way, but he was perfect... you know the rest.

 

[juantoo3]

Adam gave into sin.
After the ark, Noah became an alcoholic.
Abraham was indeed righteous. God gave him a nation. (It started with Isaac at the age of 80.)
Jacob was a thief.
Moses did not go ino the promised land. He was a VERY good man, just not fully obedient)

Jesus Christ, Gods only begotten son, was tempted in every way, but he was perfect... you know the rest.

You're trying to evade the point, and the point is inescapable. You forgot to add that Abraham was a liar. Of course, we all know all Christians are always perfect too, just like Jesus was.

It's not about perfection. If it was, every bloody Christian ever born is doomed to hell. So yes, I do know the rest. There are a whole lot of others that do not. Motes and beams...you know?

 

[pattimax]

Now, now...you might feign ignorance for others, I know you know full well what I am talking about. I've been singing the same tune for many, many years now.

YOU HAVE NOT!!! When I knew you, you were a bible-thumper and I was a non-christian. You have never been considered heretical. (Where did that come from?)

 

[pattimax]

You're trying to evade the point, and the point is inescapable. You forgot to add that Abraham was a liar. Of course, we all know all Christians are always perfect too, just like Jesus was.

It's not about perfection. If it was, every bloody Christian ever born is doomed to hell. So yes, I do know the rest. There are a whole lot of others that do not. Motes and beams...you know?

What point am I evading?

Is there another conversation going on here that I do not know about?

 

[juantoo3]

YOU HAVE NOT!!! When I knew you, you were a bible-thumper and I was a non-christian. You have never been considered heretical. (Where did that come from?)

I'm sure there are some here that would be pleased to hear me called that. I didn't say it was you who considered me heretical. Perhaps you were not paying attention then, and goodness knows when you made it clear you had no intention of listening, I ceased speaking. I do find it intriguing, you thought me closed minded then. I wonder your view now? Even though my view has not significantly changed, only grown more convinced. The drum I bang on today is the same one I banged on back then. Maybe you had earplugs in...

 

[juantoo3]

What point am I evading?

That the patriarchs were given by G-d to the Jews, without which Christians could lay no claim.

Christianity should consider itself grateful to the Jewish faith, instead of treating it like some second class cast off. Christianity is the bride of Christ, Judaism is the wife of G-d. Who rightfully demands more respect: the bride, or the wife?

 

[pattimax]

That the patriarchs were given by G-d to the Jews, without which Christians could lay no claim.

Christianity should consider itself grateful to the Jewish faith, instead of treating it like some second class cast off. Christianity is the bride of Christ, Judaism is the wife of G-d. Who rightfully demands more respect: the bride, or the wife?

The Patriarchs were prophets. Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord. Judaism does not accept that. God gave himself.

Where is the respect in that?

And all Christians were Jews before Christ.

 

[pattimax]

I'm sure there are some here that would be pleased to hear me called that. I didn't say it was you who considered me heretical. Perhaps you were not paying attention then, and goodness knows when you made it clear you had no intention of listening, I ceased speaking. I do find it intriguing, you thought me closed minded then. I wonder your view now? Even though my view has not significantly changed, only grown more convinced. The drum I bang on today is the same one I banged on back then. Maybe you had earplugs in...

I thought you close minded at first. But you made some valid points and what you are saying now is NOT the same, and you know it. I was listening.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

By chance, did you mean to say "it is a matter of loving others so they are *not* rebuked or punished at judgement?

Jesus' teachings are the right way...for Christians.

yes i meant to say "NOT"... thanx for catching that..

as far as his teachings when jesus said he is the way, the truth, and the life, it was said for everyone.

 

[dauer]

Patti,

"Heartless" was referring to the post having to do evangelical Christianity. Israel is very important.

Perhaps you didn't understand what I meant when I clarified. When I said Evangelical Christianity is not Christianity, I meant that it is not Christianity the entity. There is more to the religion than evangelical Christianity. I've gotten into debates with evangelicals who have, for example, denied Catholicism is a part of Christianity, saying instead that it is something separate. It is from there that I was responding. I categorize things as Christianity based on what is fundamental to Christianity -- belief, creed -- as well as based on common understanding so if I can give an example of a case where I might actually be on the fence -- which is not so with evangelical Christianity -- I would say that LDS may or may not be Christianity, depending on who you ask, but I have no personal investment in that issue. Is that more clear?

Dauer

 

[bananabrain]

Wait til BB hears about this!

The shmutz is going to hit the fan!

hah. i think i'd be restrained compared to what will happen when the real beardy hard-arses get on the case. but it's nice to know everyone thinks i'm a curmudgeon.... mrs bb agrees!

"If a person believes the Bible and believes that Jesus is the only way of salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12, Romans 10:9,10) and then that person declines to tell a Jewish friend about Christ, it indicates one of two things. Either that person has decided that the Jews are not worthy of the gospel, in which case he would be a racist, an anti-Semite and a hater of people instead of the lover of people that God wants him to be. Or perhaps he has judged the gospel as being unworthy of the Jews in which case he has trivialized the passion of Calvary and the awesome significance of Christ's resurrection."

or, three, they are completely missing the point about judaism which is that it has a perfectly good system without the gospel, thank you very much, so continuous attempts to get us to "upgrade" are about as welcome as double-glazing salesmen when you already have perfectly good double-glazing. after a while, it just gets old, particularly after you've told them to feck off and take you off their list over fifteen times.

its over here on the Christianity board where the evangelism and proselytizing of Jews for Jesus is accepted as SOP, good folks spreading the good news and saving souls..

is it? if that is true (which i'd be sorry to see) then aren't you a) wasting your time backslapping about it on the christian board when dauer and me are prancing about on the jewish board, blatantly refusing to convert and b) being big, pink girls' blouses by not giving it a go? come on then, if you think you're hard enough

Either G!D's covenant with Judah is valid...in which case the JforJ are operating under false pretense trying to "save" someone who doesn't require saving...or else G-d's covenant with Judah is invalid, in which case adopting of invalid ways, means and traditions subverts the attempt of "saving by grace." Either way, it is not very forthright in presenting itself.

precisely. either they're heretical jews, or they're undercover christians. either way they're going to get a good kicking, metaphorically speaking.

oh, incidentally, there are evangelicals and evangelicals. the question is whether you believe in "supercessionism" (also known as religious imperialism) or "dual covenant theology", which neither breaks my head nor steals my wallet.

The Old Testament is prophecy concealed, and the New Testament is prophecy revealed.

says you. that sounds like a smug little bit of trite rhetoric to me.

And juan, re the end of your post, Jews don't get into those types of debates with each other. The issue that defines one's Jewishness is universally halachah. The definition varies a little from place to place as to how to become Jewish or patrilineal descent, but all the denominations still regard the other denominations as Jews.

dauer, that may be true of you or me, but not even mainstream orthodoxy in the UK regards reform judaism as jewish, but as a heresy; a jewish heresy, perhaps, like karaism, not precluding intermarriage providing the halakhah can validate the individuals concerned, but still not to be considered judaism. in fact, many orthodox authorities consider non-orthodox judaism "worse than christianity", because it posits fundamental changes to the halakhic process, questions fundamental things like Torah me-Sinai and supports arse-wash like the documentary hypothesis.

I've met some JFJ, while it is true that one of their main concerns is to "save" other Jews, rightly or wrongly that is what they believe genuinely.

well, as yitzhak rabin once said, "if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bus". you may believe genuinely and sincerely that you are a teapot, but it's still just as much bollocks as what j4j (or the nation of islam, for that matter) believe.

They are also proud of their Jewish heritage, and in fact some are more interested in all things Jewish after accepting Jesus.

big fecking deal if there won't be any judaism left after they've done with us.

Some evangelicals believe (again rightly or wrongly) that Jews that accept Jesus hold both the covenants and the promises of both worlds.

typical self-justificatory ullage.

Yes to convert..... and yes to bring healing and wholeness to broken people.

why can't you just help people without converting them as well? it makes me sick how these kinds of conditions are attached to supposed acts of goodwill and mercy.

But sometimes, people may show up in your life with just what you need.

we never needed christianity. we didn't need it in egypt, under the greeks, or under the romans. we didn't need it in the east or the west. we didn't need it, full stop. what we needed was to understand what we ALREADY HAD.

they are those that have known the hidden things in G!D thru his son that shares the name ....

there's no textual evidence that any Divine Name used in the Torah has any connection to jesus - all that is is theological wishful thinking.

Prophecies concealed in the OT are revealed in the NT.

no they bloody aren't. if they were, we'd have bloody noticed. orright?

Jews only relate to part of the story.

yes, the jewish bit. why are we supposed to relate to the christian bit if it's nothing to do with us? why are we obliged to justify our lack of relationship to it? do i also have to justify my lack of relationship to confucius' analects?

And if the Jew can't see that in the Christian, and vice versa, then no wonder one wants to preach to the other, and seek to witness to him, or whatever. I think if I were a Jew, I'd pretty much see this whole thing as pure proselytism, plain & simple ... like someone tryiing to sell me a prosthetic hand, even as I sat there listening to the salesman drone on, with my hands already folded, in prayer.

precisely - except we recognise the Divine in everyone, not just christians and muslims, but all human beings, made in the Divine Image.

For G!D so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

but we don't talk about eternal life, only the portion in the world-to-come; and even so, we're far more concerned about this world. we're not that worried about "perishing" - we trust that G!D knows what G!D's up to.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[pattimax]

Patti,
Perhaps you didn't understand what I meant when I clarified. When I said Evangelical Christianity is not Christianity, I meant that it is not Christianity the entity. There is more to the religion than evangelical Christianity. I've gotten into debates with evangelicals who have, for example, denied Catholicism is a part of Christianity, saying instead that it is something separate. It is from there that I was responding. I categorize things as Christianity based on what is fundamental to Christianity -- belief, creed -- as well as based on common understanding so if I can give an example of a case where I might actually be on the fence -- which is not so with evangelical Christianity -- I would say that LDS may or may not be Christianity, depending on who you ask, but I have no personal investment in that issue. Is that more clear?

Dauer

Dauer,

Thanks for clarifying. World-wide evangelism is neccessary and it is the objective of Christianity. I completely understand where you are coming from. Saying something is not when it is ...

 

[BlaznFattyz]

there's no textual evidence that any Divine Name used in the Torah has any connection to jesus - all that is is theological wishful thinking.

where you find theological wishful thinking, i find the revealing of god by the holy spirit thru his word and thru the spirit, and all proclaim jesus is lord.