Hard topic...maybe?

Yeah, really hard...:)

I know how you feel, trust me. It was hard for me when I first heard it too. Dont worry about it though, this in no way makes God evil or disingenous. It does, however, make God look a lot bigger than I had previously thought.

What did you think of Proverb 16:4..."The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of destruction."
 
From the Dhammapada, Silas:
Hate never yet conquered hate; only Love conquers hate.
Note good enough for you? May I gently remind you that Christ was the Lord of Love? If it was not love that He embodied, then what else?

You would do well to watch an interview of the Dalai Lama, conducted some years ago by Bill Moyers. In that interview, Bill Moyers asked HHDL about harmlessness. And in a response that sounded more like Jainism than Buddhism, His Holisness replied, even mosquitoes ... should be met with harmlessness.

In his usual, jovial way (Jovial - look up its etymology, Silas), HHDL smiled and laughed as he replied. When Moyers pushed the issue, "If the mosquito returns?" ... HHDL looked down at his arm, and made a motion with his other hand as if to suggest, I'd thump the mosquito away! He was still smiling, and let out an audible laugh, as he often does. :)

I think roaches are disgusting, and I usually kill them without hesitation, because they get away so quickly. Are these not God's creatures too? Yes, they are, and they do have a niche in our ecosystem (the ecosystem we are fast destroying). I would immediately welcome a roach, or hornet, into my aura, after I end its material existence ... because while the one presents an unwanted pestilence to me, the greater being of the insect in question does not pose a threat.

I don't expect that to make sense. It isn't expressed very well. So let's just remember a few things about the Lord of Love ...

He went about healing the sick, and spent his time amongst the poor and oppressed, and even when he did speak out against the Romans, he did not incite riots, or support the violence of a Barabbas, or an understandably confused Judas Iscariot. :eek:

Jesus taught us to Love, and like the Buddha, he emphasized that LOVE heals all wounds, and only Love conquers hate.

Until we can focus on the lesson of Forgiveness, and learn to Forgive, even as God does, we have no right, and no place, to speak of such things as (so-called) `Divine wrath,' or the `vengeance of the Lord.' For these expressions will be misunderstood, and misapplied, as we have aptly seen!

There is such a thing as righteous indignation, as Jesus might have demonstrated at the Temple, to prove a point regarding the money-changers ... and our great hypocrisy (then, as now). But this was a controlled LESSON, and in this demonstration it would be well to consider that Jesus did not "lose his temper."

Silas, we have never spoken in person, but you know, if you'd actually sit there and tell me with a straight face that "God's hate is a holy hate coming from a essence of pure love," I don't think we'd have anything to say to each, anyway.

~Zag
 
From the Dhammapada, Silas:
Hate never yet conquered hate; only Love conquers hate.
Note good enough for you? May I gently remind you that Christ was the Lord of Love? If it was not love that He embodied, then what else?

You would do well to watch an interview of the Dalai Lama, conducted some years ago by Bill Moyers. In that interview, Bill Moyers asked HHDL about harmlessness. And in a response that sounded more like Jainism than Buddhism, His Holisness replied, even mosquitoes ... should be met with harmlessness.

In his usual, jovial way (Jovial - look up its etymology, Silas), HHDL smiled and laughed as he replied. When Moyers pushed the issue, "If the mosquito returns?" ... HHDL looked down at his arm, and made a motion with his other hand as if to suggest, I'd thump the mosquito away! He was still smiling, and let out an audible laugh, as he often does. :)

I think roaches are disgusting, and I usually kill them without hesitation, because they get away so quickly. Are these not God's creatures too? Yes, they are, and they do have a niche in our ecosystem (the ecosystem we are fast destroying). I would immediately welcome a roach, or hornet, into my aura, after I end its material existence ... because while the one presents an unwanted pestilence to me, the greater being of the insect in question does not pose a threat.

I don't expect that to make sense. It isn't expressed very well. So let's just remember a few things about the Lord of Love ...

He went about healing the sick, and spent his time amongst the poor and oppressed, and even when he did speak out against the Romans, he did not incite riots, or support the violence of a Barabbas, or an understandably confused Judas Iscariot. :eek:

Jesus taught us to Love, and like the Buddha, he emphasized that LOVE heals all wounds, and only Love conquers hate.

Until we can focus on the lesson of Forgiveness, and learn to Forgive, even as God does, we have no right, and no place, to speak of such things as (so-called) `Divine wrath,' or the `vengeance of the Lord.' For these expressions will be misunderstood, and misapplied, as we have aptly seen!

There is such a thing as righteous indignation, as Jesus might have demonstrated at the Temple, to prove a point regarding the money-changers ... and our great hypocrisy (then, as now). But this was a controlled LESSON, and in this demonstration it would be well to consider that Jesus did not "lose his temper."

Silas, we have never spoken in person, but you know, if you'd actually sit there and tell me with a straight face that "God's hate is a holy hate coming from a essence of pure love," I don't think we'd have anything to say to each, anyway.

~Zag


I feel the problem is that some people (especially unregenerated people) think God is some sort of santa clause figure. You guys see him as sort of a big nice guy in the sky who does everything for people. My understanding of God is the opposite of that. I believe the Bible. He's big! That God is Love and does everything for Him. "all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?" (Dan 4:35) By the way, Dalai Lama is not worthy of being spoken of in the same token of Jesus. What were you thinking?
 
God's hate is a holy hate coming from a essence of pure love.
This transcends mere semantics...there is a distinction between "hatred" and "righteous indignation."

Did Jesus purge the Temple acting in and by hatred?

There is no such thing as "holy" hate, any more than there is a "holy" hell.

Holy Schmoly, Bat Man!
 
Okay, okay, I know Christ spoke of the "straight and narrow" path. Once again, must we take everything literally? :(
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” --Mahatma Gandhi ;)
 
Okay, okay, I know Christ spoke of the "straight and narrow" path. Once again, must we take everything literally? :(
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” --Mahatma Gandhi ;)

Yes, we're unlike our older brother, Jesus. But, we try and God will make us perfect as He is perfect. Gandhi, as "good" as he was, died apart from Christ.
 
Kindest Regards, Silas!
Yes, we're unlike our older brother, Jesus. But, we try and God will make us perfect as He is perfect. Gandhi, as "good" as he was, died apart from Christ.
Quick question: who does G-d look more favorably on; the person who hears the Word and does not do what it says, or the person who does what the Word says having never heard?
 
Yes, we're unlike our older brother, Jesus. But, we try and God will make us perfect as He is perfect. Gandhi, as "good" as he was, died apart from Christ.
Just remember, Silas, Abraham Lincoln didn't die in Vain. He died in Washington, D.C.!
 
"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."—Romans 9:13​


There are more, but I think these are sufficent for now. How do you guys reconicle the fact that though God is love, He still hates? I understand it as thus: Since God is Love, by that very defination, he must hate. In other words, if you love children, you will hate child molesters, and if you love God, you will hate sin and Satan.​


I would like to address the issue of this verse. Let's remember that Romans 9-11 deals primarily with Israel. You have to look at God's purpose in that light. Earlier in Roman's 9, Paul expresses heaviness in heart for his brethren according to the Promise of God through the seed of Abraham. The election concerns a specific purpose in using Israel to bring forth God's glory to the world. When Paul speaks that they are not all children of the promise just because they are the seed of Abraham, for we must remember that God had two sons, Isaac and Ishmael, and the distinction in the children of promise only goes through Isaac. Then Paul further breaks it down to Jacob and Esau. You must be aware that the descendents of Jacob and Esau became two nations, namely Israel and Edom. Jacob is favored, not because he is righteous, for you see throughout the story of these two brothers that in every turn, Esau got shafted through the trickiness of Jacob, first with the birthright, when Jacob tempted Esau when he was famished, and then by the blessing, when Jacob tricked Isaac in believing he was Esau. Esau was favored by Isaac, but Jacob was favored by Rebecca. Esau should have rightly been the heir of the blessings and birthright.

God's soverinty is evident, but not because He actually hated Esau. For if God hates those who sin, He should have hated Jacob. But the He favored Jacob because of the overall plan to raise up a nation who would bring forth the Messiah.

Later, in Genesis 33:11, Jacob and Esau were reconciled and Jacob actually blessed Esau. And Esau was blessed with much much riches in Genesis 36:7.

I do not believe that this passage concerns salvation to Jacob and damnation to Esau specifically as individuals. But rather the soveriegnty of God on a national level. The only reason to favor Jacob is to bring forth eventual salvation to the world through Christ. That is Israel's purpose.

"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." - Hebrews 10:9

The same thing occurs in regard to Pharoah. Pharoah represents the nation of Egypt, as very often nations are referred to as the names of their rulers (see Genesis 14).

The election of the children of Israel in the OT is a different dispensation. God deals not with us according to the Promises accorded to Israel, but according to grace through Christ. The floodgates have opened and now all can enter in, if they believe. Individual Jews are saved now through Christ, as are the Gentiles in the current dispensation, until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. But the nation of Israel is still under the Promise of God through the prophesies accorded to them in the OT. Israel as a nation is still under an everlasting covenant with God. For after the fulness of the Gentiles come in, all of Israel will be saved.

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." - Romans 11:26-29

Israel as a nation is awaiting redemption. They are still waiting for the Messiah according to the promise. And they will be redeemed as a nation when the Messiah comes, as a testimony to the world of the Glory of God.

Or do you think that the events in the apocalyptic literature are merely symbolic? Well, look around. Israel is a nation again (Ezekiel 36:24). Gog and Magog (Russia) have formed alliances with Persia (Iran) and other nations (Ezekiel 38-39). Europe is forming ito a unified state (Daniel 2 and 7). China can boast a 200 million man army (Revelation 9:14-16)

There is still a mystery with Israel. There are still prophetic events to be played out.

My whole point is that when God refers to those He hates in Romans 9-11, He is not referring to individuals, but catogories of people (i.e. the unrepented nations). God is dealing with Israel as a whole. The remnant referred to in Romans 11:5 refer to those Jews who have accepted Christ according to grace "at this present time". But what does it say in Romans 11:24?

"For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?"

Israel will be grafted back in and all of Israel will be saved, not according to the election of grace, but by the promise of the covenant.

"For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

God is not finished with Israel as a nation yet. But what of salvation through Jesus Christ? Part of the covenant is the appearance of the Messiah, who will turn out to be Jesus.

There are two different things going on here. Don't confuse the two.
 
Here's a thought...

If G-d made us in His image, did he make us to hate? On purpose?

Hates good ';/

Heres a little song for anyone whos ever hated... in the key of Grr Can hate be good? Can hate be great? Can hate be good? Can hate be great? Can hate be something we dont hate?

Hate something Change something Hate something change something Make something better..

:D
 
Do you think God loves everybody? What are you reasons for saying yes or saying no?

- Silas
it is because of Gods love for the world ,
that he is using his son to lead us to everlasting life, so i would say that God loves us . because that is what the bible says. but the question is .............. do we respond to that love .
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. john 3;16-17
(1 John 4:10) The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent forth his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.
(1 John 4:19) As for us, we love, because he first loved us.
 
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