excuse me, but you are stating that as if it is a logical consequence and it isn't. jews lived in iraq for 2500 years, in poland for 500 years, in germany for 1000 years, in russia for 500 years, etc etc. the fact that we lived there wasn't because of refuge and freedom of worship - it's because we had *nowhere else to go*.
it's not like some maharajah came looking for us to tell us to move to india, we came of our own accord. in places where there was far worse antisemitism and persecution than india we still stayed - so the fact that we stayed in india is not actually proof of anything.
You keep repeating the same argument again. And I have to state again that if we wanted , we could easily have told your people to get lost as well, which we didn't , and never persecuted them as well unlike every other country did. It was the portuguese christians who came to India and conquered some land who persecuted the jews and muslims and christians and hindus as well. And even these guys were defeated by Shivaji, and the remnants of them were thrashed off in the 20 th century by the Indian government.
what you are arguing here is a logical fallacy known as post hoc ergo propter hoc - in other words, we did not move to india because it was the Land of Tolerance And Multiculturalism - we moved there and then later on people like gandhi decided to make the tolerance state policy - i would like to give that its proper due as forward thinking and undoubtedly praiseworthy,.
Thank you.
but i'm not going to extend blanket approval to every aspect of indian state policy and history and the complete spectrum of hinduism any more than i would do so to any other religion or state including my own.,.
As I stated before no country indeed is perfect, but certainly India , due to its credentials which I mentioned above, and which I clearly know that no country on earth has is closer to perfection.
Instead of merely criticizing it , why cant you point out its merits as well, such as being the only nation on earth that has not persecuted the jews and how your people have lived there for centuries and still do.
so you are basically demanding that i swear allegiance to some kind of mythological "hind"? can't you see that is both peremptory, arrogant and illogical?.,.
Bharat which has been there for milleniums and which is the land that gave the bloodiest battle of their lives to Alexander and his troops which demoralized enough to turn back, is not a myth.
And as I said, we don't need your gratitude or anything for giving shelter and refuge and freedom of worship to your people , which we could easily have denied, we are only asking you to criticize India while at the same time showing its positives as well, which especially you and your people are aware of.
well, we got on more or less well with the muslims until after WWII and certainly under islamic law were treated far better than we were in christian europe, with protected rights as dhimmi, even though that is far from what i would accept these days.
Funny you said this. Just yesterday a jewish friend of mine pointed out to me the massacre of many young jews in arabia during the time of Mohammed.
turning it round again, "what are the great successes?????????? as i said earlier, the fact we were there for a long time is no guarantee of anything given the othe places we lived/live. .
Simple, one great success is that the hindus have never persecuted your people in all the centuries you lived in India, unlike what happened in all other countries the jews lived.
And what about the zoroastrians , the syrian christians, the tibetan buddhists, the bahais, and many other things we did, as I mentioned in my previous posts.
Even the wise Dalai Lama pointed this out as shown in a previous post.
you are the one making the categorical claim, so you are the one who ought to substantiate it and, of course, you can't because your point is all rhetoric, backed up only by the anecdotal evidence of your friend raymond (nice though he undoubtedly is).
Not only is he nice , he's got a spine as well.
you see, this is where you betray your supremacism. they're "allowed" by the hindus, are they? where's the equality in that statement?).
And why not. It was the hindus who were ruling India then. You certainly had to get their permission. If you just went and settled over there without telling them, they would just have easily thrashed your people out.
to say nothing of your implication that muslims alone are to blame for the riots and atrocities of partition!
And why not. It is clear to everyone that the moplah riots, the direct action day riots were started by Islamic terrorists. Also the demand for pakistan was started by the islamic fundamentalists as well, not the hindus.
presumably that is meant to indicate incredulity. i am not here to big up israel, particularly in relation to india. i've got no interest in "mine's bigger than yours" grandstanding. on the other hand, you seem terribly keen that i acknowledge the wonderfulness without blemish that is india and despite my warmth for indian culture, music, language, etc and my own attachment to my indian heritage, i'm not about to idealise any nation-state.!
And India is more than a nation-state . It is an ancient civilization, on par only with the chinese.
referring to the jewish population of india as "substantial" is simply another example of it,.!
There are indeed some 60000 jews in India when i last checked. There used to be more, but many of them have left for israel. Have no problems with that.And it indeed is substantial considering the demographics of the jews in the world.
calling me names is simply an illustration of insecure aggressiveness and shows the nasty streak that came through in your attacks on islam. why do you crave my approval and admiration so much and then throwing your toys out of the pram when you don't get it?
I don't think I have called you names. I only said that those jews who lived in India for centuries without any persecution from the hindus and with full freedom of worship , who left India immediately because of some rumours ( which never also materialized) are indeed spineless.You can also see that the vast majority have not left due to love for India . Any one can see the logic of it.
i'm not saying that there isn't anything problematic in the Qur'an. the same accusations are often levelled at the Torah and Tanakh, but of course when you understand the legal tradition that underpins them, these apparently bloodthirsty regulations are not actually actionable outside of a given time and place, unless you happen to be a bunch of revisionist imbeciles like the taleban or other islamist groups. there are plenty of muslims, like muslimwoman for example, who can provide chapter and verse to refute a literalist reading of these verses - if you're actually interested in listening to the answers, why don't you go and ask them on the islam board instead of wasting our time with your diatribes here? i'm sure you'd get far better answers from them than you'll get from me.
And get to the point,you are the one who stated "
you started trying to support your argument with quotes from the Qur'an while refusing to accept any contextual interpretation of them from people who clearly understood them better than you".
And I gave you my answer.
<<<<<there are plenty of muslims, like muslimwoman for example, who can provide chapter and verse to refute a literalist reading of these verses >>>>>>
Also where were these 'plenty of muslim ' , when the fundamentalist muslims engaged in offensive warfare against Asia, Africa and Europe, and persecuted the zoroastrians, hindus, sikhs, jains, buddhists, assyrians in asia, and which continues even now as well.
Well, I indeed have been in islamic boards, but unfortunately they seem to like only good sweet things and not the bitter truth, which they never bothered answering. They keep denying what I politely asked them, as western propaganda, even though I said that I am indian, and does not answer me as well. So I decided to get lost from there.
ah, another spate of name-calling, i'm sure that improves your logic. of course they would be immoral - IF - they were interpreted in the literalist way you are reading them. when interpreted by sensible, sophisticated, learned muslims, they aren't. when interpreted by backward, frustrated, stupid muslims, like rioting pendus or jihadi nincompoops, they are..
And the point of my thread over here is that these 'sensible, sophisticated, learned muslims,' appeared recently and is a microscopic minority , while history is dominated by 'backward, frustrated, stupid muslims,' as can be seen by what happened in Asia,Africa , Europe, and north america.
hur hur hur. perhaps if you went to one once in a while you might moderate your views enough to have a social life rather than being a keyboard warrior.
..
Well, well, well, so you are saying that I have never been to parties. That itself is empirical evidence for me of your wisdom and intuition( or lack of it).
As for the warrior part, perhaps you should know that the kshatriya code is the most ancient warrior code on earth, just like the hindu martial arts kalaripayattu , is the most ancient martial arts on earth.
I believe that a warrior is someone who fights for a just cause , any cause it may be. And for this reason even Gandhi and his disciple Martin Luther King are warriors as well. It does not at all has to be violent . Animal rights crusaders are warriors as well.
The world is a dangerous place to live , not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
----Albert Einstein
Just a few thoughts of mine on this subject.
what??? this is absolutely untrue. any jew can marry any other jew. jews are not a race and it makes no difference religiously speaking what colour you are. of course, individual jews are sometimes racist but you don't, for example, get mother-in-laws complaining "oh this fiancée of his is a bit dark - it is a shame he couldn't find someone wheatish" - and don't dare tell me that indians don't care about this - just look!
desi date wheatish - Google Search
..
Well, I saw pictures of protesting black jews and reports about them in the newspapers about how they were saying that they too have the same blood as the white jews and stuff. They seemed to be very angry and hurt, if you ask me.
And with respect to India, people of all skin colours marry each without any problems , also arranged marriages are still in vogue in India.
My own parents belong to different skin colours.
is that supposed to be a superiority thing?..
Well, you indeed have to admit we are one-sixth of humanity.
the last time we reached the 20 million mark was during the 1930s.... unfortunately, you know, we ended up with a bit of a demographic problem for some reason....
Yeah I know ,and sorry about that. It hurts me too.
well, you clearly don't know anything about the jewish mystical tradition which contains concepts virtually identical to these. why not actually open your mind? you might learn something.
And where did I say that i don't know anything about jewish mystical tradition. I have gone through a bit of the kaballah.
So are you saying that there is something like jnana yoga in judaism, where one tries to find God through discrimination and reason only, and in the end where one becomes one with God, or enlightened.
Also the same with raja yoga--as explained by our prophet Vivekananda in the beginning , and which includes many features, like pranayama,pratyahara,breathing exercises, meditation and stuff and diet control and other features. I have never read about that in judaism. In fact I know of many jews who practice these techniques religiously.
And how many enlightened masters are there in Judaism like Krishna, Buddha, Ramakrishna, J.Krishnamurthy, Sree Narayana Guru, Ramana Maharshi, Mata Amritanandamayi and others.
Anyway as I stated before , I am eager from wisdom and knowledge from any source. If you have any , I am interested.
maimonides said something very similar..
So, we do have a common ground , I see.
then what the arse are you doing on a dialogue board? are you getting your spiritual growth and character by attachment to the worldly achievements of the indian state? nirvana, here we come....
I only said we don't care what the jews have to say about idolatry because we have our own views in this, as I stated before. And you have to admit I did talk on this subject.
oh, here we go. tell you what, mate - why don't you look up what we actually say, rather than assuming you know what you're talking about when you don't. we were chosen because we were chosen to receive the Torah, not "chosen" because we were better. i can't even be bothered to argue this yet again, go and have a look here:
Jews as a chosen people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which ought to answer some of your questions.
And look what I found after fishing. I got a big one.
Deuteronomy 14:2: "You are a holy people unto the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a peculiar people unto Himself, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth."