The real cause of Islamic terrorism - the yogic perspective

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by niranjan, Mar 29, 2007.

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  1. niranjan

    niranjan New Member

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    And if you don't agree with rape and slavery , you can work to get rid of the stuff in the quran that condones slavery of non-muslim female captives which " your right hand possess" and sex with these traumatised female captives by their captors.
     
  2. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Niranjan

    If you check out some of the links on the posts I write to brother Adbullah you will see that I support a number of womens websites working to change these horrendous conditions for women. I also write articles for one of them, reporting abuses I see here. It may not be much and it may not change the world but I do not stick my head in the sand and say "there is nothing I can do". When I see attrocities I email my protest to the government or 'body' involved and forward my email to everyone in my contacts list so they can email protests as well. Can you say you do the same?

    What I cannot and will not do is try to campaign to remove the word of G-d from the Quran. What is needed here is education of the Muslim people, verses to be placed in their historical context for the Muslim people, more coherent fiqh from the scholars, more consensus on interpretations and to rid ourselves of the practice of using heresay (even above the Quran at times). I could teach a child the basis of the Quran without ever teaching hatred or violence or abuse of any kind. The hatred is taught by men not by G-d and this is what we must work to change.

    Salaam
     
  3. niranjan

    niranjan New Member

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    And what do you think this thread is all about !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



    You do your stuff , which is centuries overdue . And we will do our own stuff.

    It is our holy and sacred duty to destroy Islamic terrorism , as taught by our holy prophet Guru Govind Singh , and it was for this reason he created the holy Khalsa and baptized saint-warriors to destroy Islamic terrorism , prevent the killing of innocent people ,the outrage of ladies by islamic terrorists, and to destroy Islamic terrorism with an iron fist.

    Waheguruji ke Fateh
    Waheguruji ke Khalsa

    Guru Teg Bahadur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Guru Gobind Singh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  4. niranjan

    niranjan New Member

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    Check this out . I found it very funny.......



    A joke
     
  5. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    I might be old but I'm not that bloody old!!!!

    So this is your peaceful religion? Fight terrorism with terrorism. I am so impressed. I hope you will be out there fighting and not sitting in your armchair typing. :)

    Salaam
     
  6. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    There are a lot of sick people in most any tradition. To claim to distill this down to a single religion as the cause is way over-simplifying the social dynamics of humanity.

    You have a beef against Islam - that's your view to hold - but to publically declare Islam as essentially inhumane shows a major misunderstanding of not simply Islam, but also religion.

    What an incredibly subjective statement to make - what is immoriality? What is reason? They are social constructs, rather than any objective standard.
     
  7. niranjan

    niranjan New Member

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    Understand the context of what I said. I am not referring to your age.


    We fought against islamic terrorists and fundamentalists, never against muslim moderate civilians. Our scriptures do teach us to fight injustice and unrighteousness and we are only doing that.

    Check out Maharaja Ranjit Singh, the Lion of the Punjab, and Hari Singh Nalwa, his general,who created the Sikh empire and defeated the marauding islamic terrorists and fundamentalists and even the Afghans in Afghanistan itself and successfully defended the Khyber Pass against invaders.

    And I am proud to say that while Maharaja Ranjit Singh ruled, the discriminatory Jizya tax on the hindus and sikhs was abolished. I am also proud to say that he treated his muslim subjects with kindness and justice and patronised them and their mosques, and elevated many muslims to high positions in his administration. Even atheists were treated well, without any problems whatsoever.
    And as a result of this his muslim subjects loved him deeply.

    As I stated before, our fight was only against Islamic terrorism , not against Islam or moderate muslims or the sufis( whose teachings are there in the Guru Granth Sahib itself.)

    Maharaja Ranjit Singh (Punjab) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Hari Singh Nalwa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  8. niranjan

    niranjan New Member

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    How many sick people can you find among the buddhists or the Jains , whose teachings emphasize strict non-violence ? Have they ever persecuted the Zoroastrians, assyrians,bahais, jews, christians, hindus, sikhs, or murdered them or tortured them or raped them like the islamic terrorists did ?


    I have never stated that Islam is inhumane. Only that islamic terrorists and fundamentalists since the 7th century A.D. are inhumane.


    morality-- Doing good , being good, for the sake of good, and loving others, for the sake of love, and not just because some guy up there wants us to be like that. Anything that is contradictory to this, I see as immorality.

    Reason --The ability to think, understand and draw conclusions.( according to my oxford dictionary).

    Reason is definetely not a social construct. Two plus two is four in every country and society . There is definetely an objective standard for morality and reason.

    Why do you think non-violence , love ,compassion,truth,justice is emphasized in every religion , society , and also in secular humanism , each of them distinct from each other ?

    This itself shows that truth and righteousness and morality is indeed objective. And it should be made as objective as possible, and stripped of all subjectivity and superstitions.

    Finding out the truth through reasoning is indeed important, for as Voltaire himself the champion of rationalism said .....


    As long as people believe in absurdities, they will continue to commit atrocities.
    ---- Voltaire
     
  9. niranjan

    niranjan New Member

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    Vivekananda was the first prophet and man on earth to criticize and denounce organised religion.



    If you want to be religious, enter not the gate of any organised religion. They do a hundred times more evil than good, because they stop the growth of each one's individual development.... Religion is only between you and your God, and no third person must come between you. Think what these organised religions have done! What Napoleon was more terrible than those religious persecutions? If you and I organise, we begin to hate every person . It is better not to love, if loving only means hating others. That is no love. That is hell! If loving your own people means hating everybody else, it is the quintessence of selfishness and brutality, and the effect is that it will make you brutes.

    ---Swami Vivekananda
     
  10. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    I was being comical, you need to get a sense of humour or your life will be full of unhappiness. Bad things happen, we must all work against it but life is also to be enjoyed where we can.

    That is the strange thing Niranjan, our scriptures teach exactly the same thing, yet you object to it and want us to change the Quran. Yes it is true the lunatic extremists use the name of Islam to commit these awful crimes but what the Quran teaches is to fight defensively against injustice to Muslims and only that.

    How would you feel if a group of loonies from your religion commited crimes and people started telling you to change your scriptures? Would you do it? Or you argue that these people are misguided and not following the spirit of your scriptures?

    There have been good and bad leaders in all societies, including Islam. Look at the UK, we are a tiny little island yet used to 'own' more than half of the world. Do you think we achieved this by pleasant and acceptable means? Who invented concentration camps? It was the British not the Nazi's. We all have things and people in our history we admire and loathe, that's just life.

    Salaam
     
  11. niranjan

    niranjan New Member

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    I do have a sense of humour, but I think yours is atrocious.

    Anyway I am glad that you have a healthy perspective of life, as you have stated "life is to be enjoyed where we can."


    And as I have stated before, our scriptures sanction war for self-defence and righteousness, but not to chop off the fingers and limbs of the unbeliever and crucify him, capture his women as slaves and have sex with them, and to impose any 'jizya tax ' on the unbelievers. We don't have any such stuff.

    We also believe that all paths are divine and lead to the same goal, unlike the islamic scriptures which stresses theirs alone.

    And if there are any scriptures that violate morality and humanity, we indeed will change them, and we have the sanction of our prophets as well in this.


    And who do you think forced the sun down on the British empire !!!!!!

    It is Mahatma Gandhi , with his philosophy of non-violent resistance and civil-disobedience movement, who was the architect of the Indian freedom movement along with Subhash Chandra Bose( both of them acknowledged Vivekananda as their mentor) and who sent the Britishers packing from India, and set themselves as a role model for other asian and african nations reeling under the heel of British imperialism, and gave them the spine and courage to rebel successfully.

    In fact Mahatma Gandhi became a role model for Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Aung saan kyi, Dalai Lama, Lech Walesa,Desmond Tutu all of whom received the Nobel Prize for peace, while their mentor did not, and who inspired Cesar Chavez, Benigno Aquino and others as well.

    Albert Einstein paid tribute to Mahatma Gandhi in the following words.....

    " Generations to come will scarce believe that such a one as this walked upon this earth in flesh and blood."



    Ramakrishna's prophecy that Vivekananda will shake the world to its very foundations have indeed come true.
     
  12. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    I give up, it doesn't matter how many times I explain that the Quran only sanctions violence as self defence, you just don't listen, hatred fills your heart and I feel sorry for you. I have nothing further to say on the subject.

    Salaam
     
  13. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    niranjan,
    If I were to generalize your posts, many of them reveal a generalization. But my eyes are evil. Are yours? Do a search: optical illusion and click a couple times to try some common optical illusions. Do your eyes see perfect or do they distort things like mine do? The brain works by making generalizations. It fills the voids of missing data and it will do it without a person even knowing it. The brain guesses and presents it as a fact. For example if a person lives in the city or around buildings with sharp straight parallel edges everywhere then their mind will try to make lines straight and parallel even if they are not. The brain does this without even asking your permission. You have to learn the illusion to see past it.

    Here is another science experiment that I think reveals an illusion. I consider it a must do for everyone. I'm sure in India or the country you come from that someone has performed a similar experiment there. Probably Vivekananda did in some fashion. I refer to an experiment that in the USA is called the Jane Elliott experiment. Sadly her tapes are sold but you can watch a good PBS documentary called, a class divided on YouTube here: Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5.

    Whether it is age, genes, height, weight, ethnicity, language, country, religion, economic status, gender, birth defects, eye sight, intelligence, education, family size, breast fed or bottle fed, a specific belief... there is a way to identify and classify people. With whatever that classification or categorical system is, the system itself can direct the eyes and the behavior of a person which can further bias the collected information. Then when you factor in that the mind can make generalizations from limited or noisy information, the result is unseen distortions or illusions of reality. If you don't believe it then review those optical illusions and the reasons they occur. I remember one of my children greatly exaggerated when she was young and upset... and she believed them. Children do, but so do adults.

    I submit that a religion can be seen by some as a manual on how to discriminate. It is something of a necessity that an individul be able to develop methods of determining differences and similarities between people and respond to those differences. I call it discrimination and I most certainly have discriminated. I didn't just pick anyone off the street when I got married. I picked and chose a person with some qualities and so did my wife. But as an experiment like that Jane Elliott one showed with children, discrimination can lead to severe distortions of belief and behavior between people that is a farse to begin with.

    In fact one of the ways that I categorize people is to see just how badly a person generalizes and categorizes other people in terms of 'WE' versus 'THEM'... or associates themselves interchangeably with a another individul of a group, like the leader... or challenges someone else to defend the actions of everyone who claims to be in another group. Then to discriminate further I might compare words with words from an individual to see how honest their model is. For example I would scrutinize your words 'destroy' and 'iron fist' with the word 'terrorism' or 'violence'. Those are just a couple of my methods of categorization and sometimes I might even ask for evidence, but when the generalizations and classification of people that a person has never even met get so thick and obvious... then I tend to just make a post like this one.
     
  14. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Hi Cyberpi

    How brilliant, thanks, the spanish castle was my favourite. It's also great news, perhaps my wobbly bits are just an optical illusion and not the result of too much chocolate? :D

    Salaam
     
  15. niranjan

    niranjan New Member

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    And where have I said otherwise. I have only criticized the chopping of the fingers and the limbs of the unbeliever, his crucifixion, the capture of the ladies of the unbeliever and their degradation into sex-slavery, imposition of the jizya tax on the unbeliever and his humiliation, and also the verse that states that if anyone wants to choose a religion other than islam, it will never be accepted of him.


    Anger is a natural emotion which comes to everyone. Emerson has said " A good indignation makes a very good speech."

    As I said , anger comes to everyone upon seeing injustice, but the important thing is to never let anger dominate and control you, which leads to reactivity, but to control and discipline your anger and channel it into constructive work, which results in proactivity.

    Feel sorry for the millions of victims of Islamic terrorism all over the world. It is they who deserve your sorrow.

    And this thread of mine is dedicated to their memory, and to bring justice to each one of them , and to make sure their pain and suffering was not in vain.
     
  16. niranjan

    niranjan New Member

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    So you yourself is stating that your eyes are evil. And evil in what sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



    Are you saying that the atrocities committed by Islamic terrorists to the Zoroastrians, the Bahais,the Assyrians, the sikhs, the hindus, the jains, the buddhists in asia are an illusion .

    And if you say yes to that , I must say that you are severely deluded.


    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,
    but because of the people who don't do anything about it - Albert Einstein



    And do you think the atrocities and torture inflicted on the Bahais and which was witnessed by the austrian officer Captain von Goumoens was an optical illusion as well.

    From the wikipedia.....

    An Austrian officer, Captain von Goumoens, working in the court of the Shah at the time, gave the following account after signing his resignation:

    "[I saw] ones who, with gouged-out eyes, must eat, on the scene of the deed, their own amputated ears; or whose teeth are torn out with inhuman violence by the hand of the executioner; or whose bare skulls are simply crushed by blows from a hammer..." "As for the end itself, they hang the scorched and perforated bodies by their hands and feet to a tree head downwards, and now every Persian may try his marksmanship to his heart’s content... When I read over again, what I have written, I am overcome by the thought that those who are with you in our dearly beloved Austria may doubt the full truth of the picture, and accuse me of exaggeration. Would to God that I had not lived to see it!... At present I never leave my house, in order not to meet with fresh scenes of horror... I will no longer maintain my connection with the scene of such crimes.”



    And do you think the assyrian genocide too was an illusion, and the statement of one of their survivors John Eshoo was an optical illusion as well!!!!!!


    From the wikipedia....


    In early 1918, many Assyrians started to flee present-day Turkey. Mar Shimon Benyamin had arranged for some 3,500 Assyrians to reside in the district of Khoi. Not long after settling in, Kurdish troops of the Ottoman Army massacred the population almost entirely. One of the few that survived was Reverend John Eshoo. After escaping, he stated:

    You have undoubtedly heard of the Assyrian massacre of Khoi, but I am certain you do not know the details."

    These Assyrians were assembled into one caravansary, and shot to death by guns and revolvers. Blood literally flowed in little streams, and the entire open space within the caravansary became a pool of crimson liquid. The place was too small to hold all the living victims waiting for execution. They were brought in groups, and each new group was compelled to stand over the heap of the still bleeding bodies and shot to death. The fearful place became literally a human slaughter house, receiving its speechless victims, in groups of ten and twenty at a time, for execution.

    At the same time, the Assyrians, who were residing in the suburb of the city, were brought together and driven into the spacious courtyard of a house [...] The Assyrian refugees were kept under guard for eight days, without anything to eat. At last they were removed from their place of confinement and taken to a spot prepared for their brutal killing. These helpless Assyrians marched like lambs to their slaughter, and they opened not their mouth, save by sayings "Lord, into thy hands we commit our spirits. [...]

    The executioners began by cutting first the fingers of their victims, join by joint, till the two hands were entirely amputated. Then they were stretched on the ground, after the manner of the animals that are slain in the Fast, but these with their faces turned upward, and their heads resting upon the stones or blocks of wood Then their throats were half cut, so as to prolong their torture of dying, and while struggling in the agony of death, the victims were kicked and clubbed by heavy poles the murderers carried Many of them, while still laboring under the pain of death, were thrown into ditches and buried before their souls had expired.

    The young men and the able-bodied men were separated from among the very young and the old. They were taken some distance from the city and used as targets by the shooters. They all fell, a few not mortally wounded. One of the leaders went to the heaps of the fallen and shouted aloud, swearing by the names of Islam's prophets that those who had not received mortal wounds should rise and depart, as they would not be harmed any more. A few, thus deceived, stood up, but only to fall this time killed by another volley from the guns of the murderers.

    Some of the younger and good looking women, together with a few little girls of attractive appearance, pleaded to be killed. Against their will were forced into Islam's harems. Others were subjected to such fiendish insults that I cannot possibly describe. Death, however, came to their rescue and saved them from the vile passions of the demons. The death toll of Assyrians totaled 2,770 men, women and children










    So if the police or the armed forces use the words 'destroy' and 'iron fist', does it become 'terrorism'.

    When scientists state that they are committed to destroying AIDS or cancer , does it become 'terrorism' and 'violence'.

    And if our guru and prophet have used the words 'destroy ' and 'iron fist' against Islamic terrorists, in order to prevent the deaths of innocent civilians and the rape of non-muslim ladies( which according to you is just an optical illusion ), does that mean it becomes 'terrorism' .



    <<<< but when the generalizations and classification of people that a person has never even met get so thick and obvious... >>>>>

    Through this I presume you are stating that I have never met muslims or islamic terrorists personally. And if that is so,I must say that you are wrong on both counts.

    And anyway I don't think anyone has to meet islamic fundamentalists and terrorists personally like me, to fight against islamic terrorism and fundamentalism.

    There are animal rights groups all over the world. Does a man or woman has to personally witness violence against animals in order to support animal rights groups or to condemn perpetrators of violence against animals ?
    Another striking example of the absurdity of your logic, though I must say that your post indeed contains some good points. We indeed have to be very prudent and not let our emotions get the better of us. However this is an uphill task , as any sensitive human being who reads about the atrocities on the bahais, assyrians,sikhs and others will lose their nerve. However as I stated before, one indeed must be strong and keep his nerve,and be proactive, instead of being reactive.


    Sin is never in action, it is always in reaction.
    ----Swami Chinmayananda

    Act , do not react.
    ---Sri Sri Ravi Shankar.
     
  17. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    **moderator mode**

    niranjan -

    i've had to speak to you before about this. your tone is accusatory, your logic questionable and you are refusing to actually engage with what muslimwoman is saying, rather choosing to put words in her mouth. you can try and view india through your rose-tinted glasses if you like, but CR is a place for dialogue, not hindutva propaganda. posting hundreds of links and cut-and-paste tracts rather than actually arguing is the way of the self-satisfied, smug and arrogant quote goblin, not of the serious student of dialogue. now kindly moderate your language and improve your behaviour, or there will be trouble.

    **/moderator mode**

    besides which, i don't think india is in any position to be held up of a paragon or exemplar of how to run a multicultural society when communal violence claims thousands of victims in gujarat, or people even riot over stupid things like who shilpa shetty kisses in public, as if it matters what some second-rate actress does. you are in *no* position to preach, however many examples of stupid muslims you throw at your smokescreen. this is no way to promote peace and co-existence and you're a pretty lousy hindu if you think this does anything productive. why not challenge your own preconceptions once in a while.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  18. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    Cyberpi that was a very good post.

    Niranjan, I support many of your veiws but these people that engage with you here are not Islamic Terrorists. They are people of compassion and thought that take the trouble to think and speak in the interests of our common humanity. As others have suggested I think it is time for you to examine your own fervour. Perhaps a good question for you to ask yourself would be if you were born into Islam, given what you display here, how far would you go?
    I enjoy your posts, (i hardly ever follow a link), and hope to see many more so hope you see that people here are not your enemies.

    Regards

    TE
     
  19. niranjan

    niranjan New Member

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    And I believe I have engaged muslimwoman in debate.


    And where have I put hindutva propaganda over here.

    My links and material are there to substantiate what I had said. That said , I will try to decrease my sarcasm a bit, which I admit was there.


    And as I said before, the violence in Gujarat came up after muslim terrorists put petrol bombs in the train carrying hindu pilgrims killing 59 of them. This resulted in a public outrage that resulted in mob violence, especially because the gujaratis have traumatic memories of partition.

    Anyway I condemn this violence as I stated before, as we are against all violence and this matter should have been taken care of by the government and police.Anyway the armed forces came to Gujarat and put down all mob violence.

    Also with respect to the Shilpa Shetty kiss by Richard Gere is not much of a scandal in India, with many hindus (me included ) supporting him. He only gave her a few kisses on the cheek ( not even french kiss) and only some groups have come against him. Many articles in the newspapers came criticizing these groups and public opinion is against these groups.All the newspapers are appreciating Gere for coming to his fatherland India, and fighting against Aids here. Richard Gere is a buddhist, which explains his passion for India.

    <<<<<<besides which, i don't think india is in any position to be held up of a paragon or exemplar of how to run a multicultural society >>>>>>

    I know that you are a jew. Do you know that India is the only country in the world that has not persecuted its jewish population on the grounds of ethnicity , culture or religion.

    We have a sizeable jewish population who escaped to India fleeing roman tyranny.

    Also the zoroastrians , escaping muslim persecution in Persia, escaped to India, where they were given full freedom of worship and refuge by the hindus. And as a result we have a sizeable zoroastrian population, and hence the zoroastrian culture, religion or heritage is not lost to the world.

    The syrian christians too came to India, where they were given refuge and freedom of worship by the Hindus, and we have a good syrian christian population itself.

    Similarly the Bahais , who were cruelly persecuted in muslim countries, came to India, where they were given full freedom of worship and refuge. The bahai lotus temple in delhi is world famous. I am also proud to say that India has the largest number of bahais in the world.

    Similarly the Tibetan Buddhists , escaping chinese communist persecution, fled to India headed by the Dalai Lama, where again they were given full freedom of worship and refuge by the hindus, and hence we have a sizeable and thriving tibetan buddhist population.

    Also in spite of bloody riots by islamic terrorists for a seperate homeland Pakistan which led to partition, our hindu leadership still allowed muslims to stay in India.And we have 140 million muslims in India now as well, while the hindu and buddhist population in pakistan and bangladesh is steadily dwindling.

    Also we had three muslim presidents and our present president A.P.J.Abdul Kalam is a muslim, as well , and he is the First Citizen of India, and the supreme commander of the armed forces of India, which is the third largest in the world, and which boasts of nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles, which makes him one of the most powerful men on earth and the most powerful muslim on earth.

    I have said this before, and I wish to mention this again to you.


    From all this , you can see that India is indeed in a position to be held up of a paragon or exemplar of how to run a multicultural society.
     
  20. niranjan

    niranjan New Member

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    And I also wish to state that not only do we have a muslim president, but also a sikh prime minister, and a christian lady , who is the leader of the ruling party in India. All this in India which has an overwhelming hindu majority.

    No country on earth possess the secular credentials of India , past or present.
     
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