Allowing child molesters in church?

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I would say they jumped in quite justified honour.

I would say so too. My worry is for the souls of the women, do you think G-d will forgive their suicide? I would hate to think they will spend eternity in pergatory for protecting themselves against such sin.

What an interesting question, if you commit a sin to avoid a sin (ie you have no choice left but to sin and we would trust a faithful person would choose the lesser sin) will G-d forgive you the sin you have to commit?
 
muslimwoman u ask: "..if so many of these 'priests' are perverts is it something about the church that attracts them or does the way of life of a priest create the problem?.."

my thoughts are... a priest is just a man, a human, like us all... if a priest finds that he cannot handle being a celibate, then he can have a sexual affair with a non vulnerable adult parishioner, or he can visit a prostitute...to think a priest might feel that sex with children is his only option to me is wrong... I could forgive my priest an affair, so long as he was not abusing his position, and I could also forgive his visits to prostitutes, although if he was visiting a drug addicted street-whore from the red light district instead of a mature non-addicted lady of the night from an agency then I would question his scruples...

I think that most child abusers are cunning, and they deliberately seek a position of authority and trust where they will have open access to children. They cannot openly abuse children; they would be lynched. They need to win the trust of the children they abuse, and they also need to win the trust of the parents, and they need to be somebody above suspicion. What better place than that of priest? Usually when an adult takes an interest in your child you are concerned, but if that adult is a sports coach or a teacher or a priest, then the rules of social conformity kick in, and there is some justification in their spending time with your children. Even if you are naturally suspicious, you will ignore your fears if the person appears to be beyond reproach...

...paedophilia ia a paraphilia, something which is "beyond love", a sexual perversion, a taboo, something which is beyond the normal human range... homosexuality used to be a paraphilia, funnily enough, before lots of ppl admitted they were gay... maybe one day we will class paedophilia as just another form of sexual expression, but I hope not... it is rife, if we are honest... our culture is steeped in paedophilic images and themes- william s burroughs' Queer, nabokof's Lolita, greek poems about boy love- if u go to wikipedia and type in- padeophilia and child sexual abuse in fiction you will find hundreds of titles, all of which explore the theme in graphic detail...

...as we know, there are many different types of paedophile... there is the paedophile who was abused themselves as a child, and their early sexual experience "primes" them to associate "sex" with "children", yet this type of paedophile is rare- most abused children do not go onto abusing children themselves, although they will most likely spend some time examining themselves and hoping that they do not become paedophiles, but this is mainly because of the myth that paedophiles were once abused children...

...then you have the paedophile who is socially inept, usually of limited intelligence, who non deliberately develop a sexual relationship with a young person because they are unable to develop and maintain relationships with normal adults, again, these are quite rare...

...then there is the paedophile who says he "loves" children and will present you with stories of how the age of consent is a societal construct and offer examples of how his love is reciprocated by his victims, the "true" paedophile, the man who feels what he does is not wrong but is clever enough to know that society does not like ppl like him, alarmingly ppl like this are not that rare,

...then there is the power and control sexual abuser, who uses sex as another weapon is his arsenal and who wants his victims to be frightened and feel fear, they are usually also wife beaters and rapists... again, not that rare...

...and then there is the sadistic child abuser, who forces children to suffer simply because he finds it exciting and enjoys it and it gives him a thrill like no other, but these sexual predators are quite rare...

the majority of child abusers are not sadistic child snatchers, strangers who opportunistically steal children from the street, nor are the majority openly physically violent, beyond the sex act... they are usually men who are attracted to the whole process of child abusing- they like to find a child, win them over, groom them, and then abuse them, they like lying to families and having a secret which only they and their victims are aware of, and most of them never get caught... when they do, you find that the current victim is not the only one, and they have a long history of comitting similiar crimes... there is a paedophile sub culture at large, a whole sordid world of them- they have key words and key phrases which they will bring into conversation with others, looking for others who behave the same way, and when they find others like them they will share their stories and often their victims, if they can... there are manuals you can buy which tell you all about how best to groom and seduce children, and if u search for them u can find them online at the click of a mouse...

...statistics suggest that most children who suffer sexual abuse are not attacked by strangers, more often than not the abuser is a family member, a close friend of the family, or an adult in a position of authority- teachers, youth leaders, members of the church, et cetera... the likelihood of being molested by a stranger as a child is small, less than 0.2%, a figure which has remained stable over time, even during times of war and disaster, when normal behaviours become skewed for even the most moral of ppl...

...places like church schools and childrens' homes attract paedophiles because they allow potential paedophiles access to vulnerable children and also cloak their true motives with respectability.

Unless they have an IQ below 65, there is no excuse. Zero tolerance is the only way to go...

I heard last week that in some states in america they are gong to force sex offenders to have lisence plates which read "sx offndr"... I suggest we go one better, and tatoo it on their foreheads so we all know who they are...
 
as salaam aleykum Francis

What a fascinating post, a real insight. Thank you for taking the time.

So from what you say I assume these people seek out positions in churches because it gives them a degree of respectability. What I don't understand is why the church doesn't take a stronger line with these people, simply moving them to a new parish just moves the problem elsewhere and does nothing to protect children.

I often hear people express the view that it is quite a modern phenomenon but I can't agree. I think it has always been a part of society but was well hidden behind closed doors.

Salaam
 
Forget forgiving child molesters, there’s no path available to people like that. It's obvious that anyone who brings themselves to doing something like that has rejected any virtues path. Maybe eventually excusable by God if the person was raised by a really dysfunctional family and a twisted childhood but how do you excuse when a priest does it?
If the church won't take them who will? Just because one is a priest does that negate the possibility that he had the same issues?

You say they've rejected virtues, I've come to believe somewhere in their life, probably numerous times, the supposed virtuous rejected them. That they asked for love and got otherwise, causing them to look for it in all the wrong places.

Is the solution truly to reject them again? Who is dancing off the cliff now?
 
Live by the sword die by the sword? Can't that be put into spiritual sense too?
 
I agree with Francis. The most prolific and dangerous child molesters do everything they can to gain trust/authority positions and perhaps some sort of lie detector testing of people seeking such positions is required. Perhaps it is embarrassing to the innocent but if they are seeking to work with children then they will love them in the right way and understand the need to at least attempt to weed out the sick perverts.

I will never support the death penalty but I would give 100% support to a tatoo on the forehead.. Infact I think thats the only way to go unless we jail them for life, and I mean till they die. The current culture here of giving them 3 or 4 years jail (out in 2) if they get jail at all is totaly unacceptable and almost acts as societal consent, not a detterant.

Francis you referred to homosexuality once being categorised a paraphillia and this itself is an important point. The majority of these perverts do not distinguish between the sexes, they will groom and abuse both. The 'gay' community at large has some, IMO, overtly malign ideas. They have pushed for and see it as their right to go into our schools and 'educate' children on their agenda. This is so very wrong. They are the most active group in trying to lower the age of consent. And in popular culture which is full of gay men like Graham Norton constantly making humour out of the gay 'ideal' of a very young man. A boy really. Gay rights, and so called gay pride have all come too far. We would not accept confessed paedophiles going into our schools to preach their ideas yet we let gays do it. Its just wrong.

The issue of these people seeking out the cloth as their cover is a difficult question. My personal opinion is that a significant minority of those that seek authority as a religious leader are bound to be and are sick self-important, self-serving individuals. And tho, Muslimwoman, they are coming under increasing exposure in the Catholic and anglican church, I have no doubt at all that they are just as active in Islam. And without doubt mental and physical abuse of children in Islamic education is routine.

So tatoo the sicko's, with BIG red letters on the forehead MOLESTER, or jail them for the rest of their lives. Parents have a right to know who the perverts are at a glance that far outweighs any rights that the perverts themselves chose to relinquish by commiting terrible acts against innocent children.
 
I am also of two minds on this. My head tells me that I believe that everyone deserves to be forgiven however...

I think that there are consequences for actions. I think to be forgiven by the church and seeking religious guidance is OK. However, I think that should be done privately. From what I understand of church, it is supposed to be a sanctuary, what message does this tell children who are supposed to feel safe?

There are consequences to our actions. And if you yourself were molested or someone you know, the effect that this has on their lives is incredible... However I wonder why these people even get out of jail...

The other question I have always wondered about is if the desire to have a physical relationship with another person is so strong that is almost "dements" people who for their strong catholic convictions are forbidden from having anytype of intimate relations with another person. Maybe it is that lack of intimacy that drives them. I wonder what would happen if this were to change...
 
The other question I have always wondered about is if the desire to have a physical relationship with another person is so strong that is almost "dements" people who for their strong catholic convictions are forbidden from having anytype of intimate relations with another person. Maybe it is that lack of intimacy that drives them. I wonder what would happen if this were to change...

When someone makes the choice of being a celibate person, in this case as part of their religious vocation, it should not "dement" the person because it is a choice made by that person "up front", knowing what the "role" involves. So yes it is strange...

I have only heard of this abuse amongst the Catholic church, does it go on in other faiths where celibacy is involved?

s.
 
A man becomes a priest for many reasons and many individuals that have walked that walk do not do so because they feel that 'calling'. This has been especially true in the past where becoming a priest was in the same merit scaling as becoming a doctor or lawyer. Often there was powerful familial pressures to join. This may be changing now I'm not sure.

Another way to look is that the young man has 'perverse' ideas from a young age and uses the church as a tool of suppresion. he thinks that joining the priesthood, renouncing sexuality will help him conquer his own thots.

There is a standing joke where i live about every man liking a 'good catholic girl'. The base of this joke stems from the idea that catholicism's inflexibility on issues of sexual desire actualy, in many cases, backfires and creates lust. In my own experience there is some truth in this too. Maybe the real reason is that catholic women play a one upmanship game with each other on the priest at confession? :p

As an aside, my school had several pupils from Nazereth House, an orphange run by catholic nuns. These children routinely underwent torture that would cause uproar if carried out at Abu Graib. This included, beating, isolation and starvation. These women were EVIL, yet cloistered themselves in the clothes of good. Abuse at the hands of wicked churchfolk is not limited to the odd sick priest but was for centuries normal. Thank God things are at last changing.
 
OK answering my own question; it's a human thing not a Catholic thing. This link just to demonstrate (it's the first one I found), not to be anti any other faith.

Jewish Survivors of Sexual Violence Speak Out

s.

There was a CoE minister jailed last week for a string of sexual abuse. The CoE had been aware of his 'passions' for many years and had been doing the Catholic thing of moving him from ministry to ministry.
 
A man becomes a priest for many reasons and many individuals that have walked that walk do not do so because they feel that 'calling'. This has been especially true in the past where becoming a priest was in the same merit scaling as becoming a doctor or lawyer. Often there was powerful familial pressures to join. This may be changing now I'm not sure.

Another way to look is that the young man has 'perverse' ideas from a young age and uses the church as a tool of suppresion. he thinks that joining the priesthood, renouncing sexuality will help him conquer his own thots.

That's exactly my theory, celibacy unfortunately is used as a tool of self repression and a cover from the eyes of society.
Obviously they can't change just by becoming a priest, and once they are in a position of trust, the abuse starts.

It happens everywhere, I remember now that one of the excuses of the Chinese government for persecuting tibetan Buddhism was for moral reasons: the existence of pedophilia within the monasteries. Which was (is?) a true fact.:(
 
So what is your view, should these people be forgiven and allowed into a church congregation? Would you feel safe with them around your children or small children you know?

I posted my view.

Its hard to explain to someone about faith that doesnt understand it..
I trust God. Completely. I also believe the bible when it says that God considers the sparrow and how much more does He consider my children? The thoughts He has towards my children are too many to count..

I also believe that we have trials and tribulations and when we suffer something we build character and wisdom. I was molested as a child and my daughter was molested when she was young...I used to be filled with self-hate and unforgiveness towards my daughters molester and my own... but His mercy and grace is so awesome.. It was a test for me and I passed it and moved on to another. I can forgive what was done to me simply because the Lord forgives me and thats enough. My daughter overcame her issue far easier than I did because I was her example and she knew that someone else understood.

God is so good.. His name is Jehovah Raphe - The Lord who heals.
 
And tho, Muslimwoman, they are coming under increasing exposure in the Catholic and anglican church, I have no doubt at all that they are just as active in Islam. And without doubt mental and physical abuse of children in Islamic education is routine.

I don't disagree with you TE, it is rife in all societies, hence my question on a previous post "does anyone know of a society this doesn't happen".

Where I live it is routine for teachers to beat children with sticks (and I am not talking about a tap on the back of a hand), it is a cultural issue and whenever I have a rant about it I am told by the parents "it is the only way children learn" - really it makes me so angry.

I just asked my husband the punishment for child molesters here and he said "we don't have any", which really worries me. Obviously we do, all societies have them but the lack of information about it suggests to me it is a 'taboo' subject here and people obviously turn a blind eye or the newspapers would report the court cases.

My heart just bleeds for these kids. I don't think I am a 'big' enough person to be able to forgive anyone for such a crime (and I accept that it would then eat away at me).
 
Faithful

I appreciate what you said and I am truly glad that you and your daughter were able to come through these times.

But I am confused. Do you mean that you believe that these things were meant to happen to make you a stronger person? I was confused by what you meant becuase I believe that often being so faithful stops people from recongnizing unsafe situations because "god" means for it to happen or "god" wil protect you.

I know someone who lets her children run in the back allies and streets. She doesn't tell them to stay in the yard or watch where they are going becuase "god" will protect them.

Is this what you mean?
 
Faithful

I appreciate what you said and I am truly glad that you and your daughter were able to come through these times.

But I am confused. Do you mean that you believe that these things were meant to happen to make you a stronger person? I was confused by what you meant becuase I believe that often being so faithful stops people from recongnizing unsafe situations because "god" means for it to happen or "god" wil protect you.

I know someone who lets her children run in the back allies and streets. She doesn't tell them to stay in the yard or watch where they are going becuase "god" will protect them.

Is this what you mean?

In a way.

Picture a bubble and in that bubble you are in Gods will when you venture out of that bubble you leave Gods will and enter an area that is dangerous.. The choice is yours..

While in the bubble you are basically immortal until God says come home.. that means nothing can happen unless its Gods will.

Outside of the bubble you are in sin.. bad things happen out there and some of those things arent directed by God but He will allow to happen to strengthen your character and prepare you for His kingdom. BUT... God makes good things come from bad... always... this is like His signature.

Christians are warned that they will endure trials and tribulations because they are targeted by the adversary we are comforted though because we are never alone and nothing can touch us..

We can die we can be tortured we can be raped but it only affects the flesh.. Our souls belong to God. Thats an amazingly empowering thing..

I could be homeless and have no limbs but it wouldnt matter because life here is so short compared to eternity with my Lord.

I can tell by the tone of your post that you are sceptical and perhaps thinking bad of this thinking but I will say to you that our heavenly parent is so much more capable than any earthly parent. We are told not to worry I dont worry.. He has armies of His angelic host guarding us..

Faith is an awesome powerful thing. We are saved by it.
 
yes, but were are his angelic armies when lil kids are snatched out of their beds..?

a cruel God, he must be, to deliberately allow such innocents to suffer..

I'm just glad my God isn't like that...
 
I have done some pretty bad things In my life... I am sure many others here have dones fairly bad things.. They are mistakes, accidents... Stupidity... Just a bad time, too much going on, confused.... It happens, heat of the moment, we all make some bad mistake.... You can't hold that agaisnt a person forever... Regardless of religion, I could find it within me to forgive this man, and to allow him that awesome, awesome thing, called "A second chance." :)
 
and would this be a all encompassing forgiveness, 17th, wherein u would allow him to babysit ur children? or would u impose conditions..? would u forgive him if he moved in next door and befriended ur young sister (assuming u have one)?
 
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