I am again impressed by your heartfelt attempts to defend 'your' ideal of Islam from the 'reality' of what goes on.
Hi TE
You think talking about gang rape and rape victims being forced to marry their rapists is me defending anyone? If I wanted to defend against reality I would not mention these things, in fact I would deny them.
I make no bones about it, I am looking for the ideal Islam and if everyone followed the Quran and not man made misinterpretations then Islam would indeed be ideal and peaceful. I am not an apologist, men do the most hideous things in the name of Islam but to blame the Quran is simply wrong. All I try to do is put the blame on those at fault and show how what they are doing in the name of Islam is in fact not at all included in Islam but is these awful men following their desires.
Women throughout Islam are taught that men are master. What they say is the word to be obeyed. Women throughout Islam are taught that men are master.
Sorry was I off sick that day? Do you really think you know more about being a Muslim woman than I do?
Some men teach their wives they are master and yes they point this verse out to their wives but the scholars go to much pains to point out the incorrect interpretation.
Hee-hee myself, my mother and sister in law just fell off our chairs laughing when I translated your comments. My father in law asked me to ask you a question - "Can I quote that next time my wife throws a shoe at me?"
He then shook his head at the wests view of Islam in action.
Sorry we shouldn't laugh, yes it does happen in some places but you seem to think this is the norm. We can assure you it is not, you have never seen an angry woman or a brow beaten man until you see an Arabic couple have a domestic argument.
I have said it before and I shall say it again, my husband was told by his sheikh, when we first married, that he was to employ someone to clean and cook for me and if he couldn't afford to do that then he should cook and clean for me himself. I will happily put my hand on the Quran and swear to Allah that is true. Women have a great deal more respect in Islam than in the west (I know from both sides).
Here is the whole verse by a different translator, Yusufali, which I feel demonstrates it's meaning better:
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means.
Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
Being obedient is somehow seen by non Muslims as grovelling, this is not correct. I was really concerned about this verse before I converted so I went to a scholar for an interpretation. As most non Muslims do, I read it and immediately thought 'downtrodden'. He was rather long winded so I'll give you the abridged version. Look at the bit I have put in bold. What is it talking about? Our modesty, our faith. Yes traditionally our husbands work and we stay home and verbally gang up on our husbands, until of course our hubbys come home and then we are sweetness and light (as all women do everywhere). So men are the providers and protectors of women, so why shouldn't we look after them? Have their dinner ready when they come home, have the house clean, stop the kids from kicking the football round the living room while our husbands watch the news? It takes an hour of the day to cook and another to clean, so then I have all day to watch tv and chat online, while my husband works from 10am until 1-2am. My in laws eat here all the time and poor old Dad comes in from work knackered and I have to tell mother in law to shut up and leave the poor man to eat because she is there nagging the moment he walks in - ooooo sounds so obedient doesn't she?! It is talking about respect, if someone is going to do all that to provide my beautiful home, my food, my huge collection of shoes, etc, etc, etc then yes I should be grateful and respectful. That doesn't stop me from telling him which bike to get on when he annoys me.
We see everything in Islam from wives lounging on sofa's while hubby, who was at work all day, comes home and makes the dinner to men standing, arms out, while their wives dress them. That is life everywhere not just in Islam.
As you point out so clearly muslim men are loathe to let their daughters out of their sight. Why? Yes because the want them married off with as little trouble as possible, ie they must be virgins. But also because they know that culturaly to be alone with a man means the man is in a position to 'command' that girl. Once done Islamic societies will go so far as to kill the girl rather than shame the family. This happens even in the UK.
Never heard such drivel in all my life - oops that's a fib I have heard worse. TE where do you get this stuff from? The man upstairs is known in our district as being one of the best Muslim men around (he actually has a really bad mark on his forehead from praying). He adores his daughters and it is going to take a damned good family to be allowed to marry their son to one of them. Of course they must be virgins, that is not cultural that is a religious obligation and the pious girls guard themselves well and are happy to do so. Just because everyone in the west goes bedhopping from their schooldays doesn't make it right. Good Lord above, do you think girls are oppressed and treated badly because they can't shag about? If I had a daughter you wouldn't get near her with a bargepole and you are damned right she would be a virgin when she got married.
I can give you much worse examples than that to use but until you find me anything in the Quran that even vaguely suggests a man is permitted to rape or sexually abuse women (other than the slaves issue, which I repeat can be seen in the relevant thread) then I will continue to refer to such generalisations as drivel.
In a case this year in Iran a 14yr old girl with learning difficulties was executed after being commanded by a man to have sex. The man recieved no sanction. Iran is for many many muslims is the upholder of Islamic law and that which sets the standard.
I can't comment on Iran they are Shi'a and have a different set of laws. We are Sunni and don't listen to a word Iran says (uhm you may not know but Shi'a is by far the smaller sect, so this was a very bad example).
A common practice in the middle ages was to kill female babies by burying them alive, the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) forbade the practice and even stated that men who protect their female children, treating them as well as their sons, will be rewarded in heaven.
In Egypt with a population of some 80million people there are no official figures for rape, let alone child rape. A society that hides so effectively the sins every society suffers is not a healthy one. We do of course know that the Egyptian police are want to rape their male prisoners as a result of an infamous web blog last year.
At what point did I ever try to defend these people? I often post the attrocities that happen in this police state. Again you are rolling Islam and the practices of people calling themselves Muslim into one big pile and you shouldn't do that. That is like me saying UK is majority Christian so rape, robbery, adultery, etc is a result of Christian beliefs or teachings. Utter nonsense. As I posted before, child molesters here tend to just disappear - body and all, often happens to rapists too. Personally they get my vote - I'll hold the flashlight for them.
That said I would not be suprised, if there was some way to find out, the actual instances of rape are lower in Egypt than here in UK. But for all the wrong reasons.
As a woman I say I don't care what the reasons as long as I am less likely to be raped here than in UK.
