Allowing child molesters in church?

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Forgive? Yes. Forget the past? No chance, especially where childrens' safety and welfare are concerned. Let him in the church? In the back with two ushers at either side, to escort him out once services are concluded.

as salaam aleykum Quahom

Thanks for your input. Like your attitude but I would still have a problem with forgiving (I must work on that one).

After my husband said "it doesn't happen here" I have done some research and can you believe it - it does happen here - gosh now there is a surprise. :eek: Although it does seem much less prevelant than in some societies but I feel that is due to the fact that our social structure here is so closed (ie our children are generally surrounded by women (the poor things don't get 5 minutes peace from nagging :) ) and children remain 'children' to a much later age than in western societies, hence they don't get much time away from Mum. Also women here don't work as much as in the west and when they do children stay with Grandmother (more nagging)).

However, when it does happen one of two things seem to occur. 1. they are arrested, tortured by the police and somehow always manage to escape and be beaten to death by 'persons unknown'. or 2. by the time the police are called in they just can't seem to find the body, so the sinner is never given a decent burial. This to me seems a rather extreme reaction but it may be one factor as to why it is not so prevelant here?

Salaam
 
as salaam aleykum Quahom

Thanks for your input. Like your attitude but I would still have a problem with forgiving (I must work on that one).

After my husband said "it doesn't happen here" I have done some research and can you believe it - it does happen here - gosh now there is a surprise. :eek: Although it does seem much less prevelant than in some societies but I feel that is due to the fact that our social structure here is so closed (ie our children are generally surrounded by women (the poor things don't get 5 minutes peace from nagging :) ) and children remain 'children' to a much later age than in western societies, hence they don't get much time away from Mum. Also women here don't work as much as in the west and when they do children stay with Grandmother (more nagging)).

However, when it does happen one of two things seem to occur. 1. they are arrested, tortured by the police and somehow always manage to escape and be beaten to death by 'persons unknown'. or 2. by the time the police are called in they just can't seem to find the body, so the sinner is never given a decent burial. This to me seems a rather extreme reaction but it may be one factor as to why it is not so prevelant here?

Salaam

Ive heard stories though..

What age is a young woman considered a child??

Isnt it true that if a young lady 13-14ish is raped shes the one that gets in trouble for tempting the man???

Heres the confusion again...

I dont know what to believe about Islam anymore..
 
You too are capable of killing, stealing, decieving.... Child molesting....

Mind if I jump in 17th? We are all capable of killing, stealing, deceiving but I draw the line at child molesting. Are you talking about physical or mental capability? Because clearly we are all functioning human beings and could if we were inclined do this but it would need the mental desire to do it and nothing on G-d’s green earth (other than mental illness) would ever make me want to molest a child. I accept I could kill to protect, steal to feed children and myself if I had no other means and deceive to protect but I could not molest.

Now I know that I have someone I can count on.. that He knew me before He formed me in my mothers womb.. He knows the number of hairs on my head.. that nothing absolutely nothing is by chance.. and He is ALWAYS with me. God controls EVERYTHING.

Hi Faithfulservant.

May I ask you about this please, as I have this conversation a lot with my husband and friends. First I would like to point out that I am in no way trying to be rude, everything here in Egypt is ‘insh’allah’ which means G-d willing. So when someone is killed in a traffic accident people say it was G-d’s will and walk away. Now, I agree and accept that the person was born and died by G-d’s will but I am curious as to how far people take this belief.

For example, may I ask if you look before you cross the street or do you just walk into the traffic and trust that you will be hit by a car or not, by G-d’s will. This is a question I often ask here, as I truly do not understand the depth of the issue. Another question I ask is whether or not you would accept blood, following a traffic accident, from a known aides victim? The choice is purely your own, so do you accept it and trust that if G-d wants you to get the disease you will or if He doesn’t you will remain well?

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Salaam
 
May I ask you about this please, as I have this conversation a lot with my husband and friends. First I would like to point out that I am in no way trying to be rude, everything here in Egypt is ‘insh’allah’ which means G-d willing. So when someone is killed in a traffic accident people say it was G-d’s will and walk away. Now, I agree and accept that the person was born and died by G-d’s will but I am curious as to how far people take this belief.

For example, may I ask if you look before you cross the street or do you just walk into the traffic and trust that you will be hit by a car or not, by G-d’s will. This is a question I often ask here, as I truly do not understand the depth of the issue. Another question I ask is whether or not you would accept blood, following a traffic accident, from a known aides victim? The choice is purely your own, so do you accept it and trust that if G-d wants you to get the disease you will or if He doesn’t you will remain well?

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Salaam

We use the brain God gave us. We also dont test God. The only time the bible says to test God is when it comes to tithing. Thats it.. the rest of the time you use the intelligence God gave you and you trust Him.
 
Faithfulservant,

First off you called Niranjan flippant for asking you specificly where in the bible God asks you to choose Your brand of faith over Buddhism. Its not flippant at all, infact its utterly pertinant to you'r point. Which is you presume to speak for God.

Well the God I hear about created the universe and regulates it either by inbuilt design or by intervention. If its by design then we have no free will and can do nothing to aid our 'salvation'. If its by intervention then he must think intervention is required in the regulation of things. Since we are created in His image, (according to what you believe), then this is maybe why we have morality and thought and the institutions they evolved.

I saw a good film on TV the other night, Northfork, in which 3 people were told a fable. There was a flood and as the water rose they were asked by a neighbour in his small boat if the wanted taken to higher ground. They said "no, we are waiting for a sign from God'. A day later the waters had risen to the point they were on the roof of their house and another man passed and asked them if the wanted to be taken to dry land. Again they said they were waiting for a sign from God and refused help. So they died of drowning and are at the pearly gates and God says you cant come in here. Why not? said the 3, 'we died waiting for a sign from You'!! Well I sent you 2 boats but you were too stupid to take them so you are not needed here.

Well thats to me how it must be. If there is a God he gave us the ability to think and reason. He would not have given us them if he did not intend to use them. And if you think the measure of ones piousness to Good (sic) is in being able to recite a few lines from a badly translated old book weighs over the safety or lives of children, and this is most important to God, then you can keep your God. Its not a God worthy of respect let alone worship. And if you want a job for life try and 'witness' me.

TE
 
Ive heard stories though..

What age is a young woman considered a child??

Isnt it true that if a young lady 13-14ish is raped shes the one that gets in trouble for tempting the man???

Heres the confusion again...

I dont know what to believe about Islam anymore..

Hi Faithfulservant

I can only tell you what I experience here in Egypt and what I have read about but it is a subject dear to my heart.

In the flat above mine the family have 3 daughters, ranging in age from 8 to 17. Because my husband works in the evening they often come to spend time with me and learn English. Now remember they have not even left the building. If 2 or 3 of them are here then the father only calls their mobile every hour or so to check they are alright. If only the oldest is here by herself the father calls every 20-30 minutes and every couple of hours she has to run upstairs to show her father she is ok then run back down again. This is not because I am western, as I have seen the same thing at the home of my mother in law. So really children remain children until they are married and even then mothers don't let go (my mother in law sends in the troops if she doesn't hear from my hubby for 2 whole days).

Sorry if I ramble a little here but it an important issue and one I would like to explain. Firstly, no it is not true that, in Islam, a girl gets blamed for being raped. Here we have to differentiate between what is Islam and what is cultural. This is one reason for the attitude of the father I have explained above. In Islam women should never be alone with a male they are not closely related to, no matter what their age although things do relax a little after you are married, this is to prevent such things occurring. For example, an engaged woman of 22 is not allowed to be alone with her fiance. So, if a young girl is raped firstly the circumstances are looked at. Who was the rapist, should the girl have been with that person, why were they alone without another female present, etc. This does not mean that if a girl is raped because she was in an unacceptable situation that she is blamed for the rape. Then there is the physical evidence, did she scream, does she have defensive wounds, etc. Exactly as we would investigate in the west. So now we have 2 issues, if it can be shown the girl was raped then obviously her rapist is punished (this will be far more severe than anything in the west) but there is also the retribution of the family if the girl put herself into a bad situation. The punishment for the male is stated by Islam, the retribution of the family is cultural. Certainly some responsibility is put onto girls to ensure they do not put themselves into situations where such awful things can happen.

The attitude to rape is very different depending on the culture of the society a Muslim is living in. It is forbidden in Islam (although the issue of slaves does come into it and you can read about that on the thread about slavery in Islam). Adultery and fornication are major sins in Islam and very harsh punishments are put in place to deter people from these sins. People often believe that women are seriously oppressed in Islam due to this issue and only women are punished - that is not the case. To prove adultery or fornication 4 reliable witnesses must be produced who actually saw the act take place and if it is proven both the man and women are punished equally. There are many other issues to prove adultery or fornication as the punishments are so severe that many rules are put into place to stop people being punished unfairly (that is not to say it does not happen but again it is cultural).

When you read that a woman has been punished for being raped in a Muslim community (usually the Asian Subcontinent or Nigeria) there is often more to the story than meets the eye. Sometimes these are women who claim rape after finding out they are pregnant or having unmarried sex and then the man refuses to marry her. Now, let us be honest if we were raped it would take us about 5 seconds to tell someone, not 4 months.

However, that is the nicer side of things and awful things do happen in the name of Islam but these people have gone far astray from the religion. One example is a poor woman in the Asian Subcontinent that was ordered by a so called Islamic court to be gang raped as a punishment for something her younger brother did. THIS IS NOT ISLAM, there is nothing anywhere in the Sharia laws that says a person can be punished for something another person did. It is sickening to note that the people ordered to carry out the gang rape where in fact the very people that ordered it. These sick men twist and misuse the laws, mishmashed together with local custom. Another sickening issue here in Egypt is that sometimes girls that are genuine rape victims are forced by their families to marry their rapists. This is because girls must be virgins to marry and will not be accepted by young men if they are not. So in order to marry off the girl the fathers insist they marry these criminals and the father drops the charges against the rapist. Again this is purely cultural and tends to only happen in poor areas with the more uneducated population. Things are changing but far too slowly for my liking.

This is just one issue where Islam gets a raw deal, the cultural and religious practices are all seen as the same thing and believe me they are very seperate. Do you think I would have converted if I was to be blamed for being a rape victim or would be forced to marry my rapist? No matter your views of my decision to convert I think you must realise I have more intelligence than that and my moral standards would simply not allow me to associate with any religion that ordained or even permitted such things.

Salaam
 
You haven't been put in the situation or life of those who do... But I am sure under circumstances you could... Think about it... A human can do any unspeakable act another human has done before him.

Sorry I disagree. If I was put into a situation where I had to kill then I would but there simply is no situation you could put me in to force me to molest a child. If you threatened to kill me I would let you. Ohhhh now there is an interesting point, if you threatened to kill 10 children unless I did then I would let you kill the children because I know they would have a better life with G-d but what if you threatened to abuse 10 children unless I did it? Would hurting one child to save the lifelong suffering of 10 children be my only option. Hmmm will have to think about that for a while and let you know.
 
Did I say I could -make- you molest a freaking kid? Or did I say you are capable.... And you are... :)

Your body is capable.... Say you have had too much to drink.... A bit too much jesus juices.... You know there are situations where you might think to, but you are capable...
 
Did I say I could -make- you molest a freaking kid? Or did I say you are capable.... And you are... :)

Your body is capable.... Say you have had too much to drink.... A bit too much jesus juices.... You know there are situations where you might think to, but you are capable...

That is why I asked whether you were talking about physical or mental capacity. I am physically capable because I am not a paraplegic but I am not mentally capable as this is not a desire I have.
 
5 mins to tell someone you were raped?? What world is that? Im sorry but in all the experiences Ive been in heard about I have never heard that. Rape is a horrible thing and you go through steps of dealing with the shock including denial for a serious period of time.
 
Muslimwoman,

I am again impressed by your heartfelt attempts to defend 'your' ideal of Islam from the 'reality' of what goes on.

"Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excell the other, and because they expend of their property (to support women). So good women are the obedient" Q'uran 4:3 4

Women throughout Islam are taught that men are master. What they say is the word to be obeyed. As you point out so clearly muslim men are loathe to let their daughters out of their sight. Why? Yes because the want them married off with as little trouble as possible, ie they must be virgins. But also because they know that culturaly to be alone with a man means the man is in a position to 'command' that girl. Once done Islamic societies will go so far as to kill the girl rather than shame the family. This happens even in the UK.

In a case this year in Iran a 14yr old girl with learning difficulties was executed after being commanded by a man to have sex. The man recieved no sanction. Iran is for many many muslims is the upholder of Islamic law and that which sets the standard.

In Egypt with a population of some 80million people there are no official figures for rape, let alone child rape. A society that hides so effectively the sins every society suffers is not a healthy one. We do of course know that the Egyptian police are want to rape their male prisoners as a result of an infamous web blog last year.

That said I would not be suprised, if there was some way to find out, the actual instances of rape are lower in Egypt than here in UK. But for all the wrong reasons.

TE
 
I am again impressed by your heartfelt attempts to defend 'your' ideal of Islam from the 'reality' of what goes on.

Hi TE

You think talking about gang rape and rape victims being forced to marry their rapists is me defending anyone? If I wanted to defend against reality I would not mention these things, in fact I would deny them.

I make no bones about it, I am looking for the ideal Islam and if everyone followed the Quran and not man made misinterpretations then Islam would indeed be ideal and peaceful. I am not an apologist, men do the most hideous things in the name of Islam but to blame the Quran is simply wrong. All I try to do is put the blame on those at fault and show how what they are doing in the name of Islam is in fact not at all included in Islam but is these awful men following their desires.

Women throughout Islam are taught that men are master. What they say is the word to be obeyed. Women throughout Islam are taught that men are master.

Sorry was I off sick that day? Do you really think you know more about being a Muslim woman than I do? :D Some men teach their wives they are master and yes they point this verse out to their wives but the scholars go to much pains to point out the incorrect interpretation.

Hee-hee myself, my mother and sister in law just fell off our chairs laughing when I translated your comments. My father in law asked me to ask you a question - "Can I quote that next time my wife throws a shoe at me?" :D He then shook his head at the wests view of Islam in action.

Sorry we shouldn't laugh, yes it does happen in some places but you seem to think this is the norm. We can assure you it is not, you have never seen an angry woman or a brow beaten man until you see an Arabic couple have a domestic argument.

I have said it before and I shall say it again, my husband was told by his sheikh, when we first married, that he was to employ someone to clean and cook for me and if he couldn't afford to do that then he should cook and clean for me himself. I will happily put my hand on the Quran and swear to Allah that is true. Women have a great deal more respect in Islam than in the west (I know from both sides).

Here is the whole verse by a different translator, Yusufali, which I feel demonstrates it's meaning better:

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Being obedient is somehow seen by non Muslims as grovelling, this is not correct. I was really concerned about this verse before I converted so I went to a scholar for an interpretation. As most non Muslims do, I read it and immediately thought 'downtrodden'. He was rather long winded so I'll give you the abridged version. Look at the bit I have put in bold. What is it talking about? Our modesty, our faith. Yes traditionally our husbands work and we stay home and verbally gang up on our husbands, until of course our hubbys come home and then we are sweetness and light (as all women do everywhere). So men are the providers and protectors of women, so why shouldn't we look after them? Have their dinner ready when they come home, have the house clean, stop the kids from kicking the football round the living room while our husbands watch the news? It takes an hour of the day to cook and another to clean, so then I have all day to watch tv and chat online, while my husband works from 10am until 1-2am. My in laws eat here all the time and poor old Dad comes in from work knackered and I have to tell mother in law to shut up and leave the poor man to eat because she is there nagging the moment he walks in - ooooo sounds so obedient doesn't she?! It is talking about respect, if someone is going to do all that to provide my beautiful home, my food, my huge collection of shoes, etc, etc, etc then yes I should be grateful and respectful. That doesn't stop me from telling him which bike to get on when he annoys me.

We see everything in Islam from wives lounging on sofa's while hubby, who was at work all day, comes home and makes the dinner to men standing, arms out, while their wives dress them. That is life everywhere not just in Islam.

As you point out so clearly muslim men are loathe to let their daughters out of their sight. Why? Yes because the want them married off with as little trouble as possible, ie they must be virgins. But also because they know that culturaly to be alone with a man means the man is in a position to 'command' that girl. Once done Islamic societies will go so far as to kill the girl rather than shame the family. This happens even in the UK.

Never heard such drivel in all my life - oops that's a fib I have heard worse. TE where do you get this stuff from? The man upstairs is known in our district as being one of the best Muslim men around (he actually has a really bad mark on his forehead from praying). He adores his daughters and it is going to take a damned good family to be allowed to marry their son to one of them. Of course they must be virgins, that is not cultural that is a religious obligation and the pious girls guard themselves well and are happy to do so. Just because everyone in the west goes bedhopping from their schooldays doesn't make it right. Good Lord above, do you think girls are oppressed and treated badly because they can't shag about? If I had a daughter you wouldn't get near her with a bargepole and you are damned right she would be a virgin when she got married.

I can give you much worse examples than that to use but until you find me anything in the Quran that even vaguely suggests a man is permitted to rape or sexually abuse women (other than the slaves issue, which I repeat can be seen in the relevant thread) then I will continue to refer to such generalisations as drivel.

In a case this year in Iran a 14yr old girl with learning difficulties was executed after being commanded by a man to have sex. The man recieved no sanction. Iran is for many many muslims is the upholder of Islamic law and that which sets the standard.

I can't comment on Iran they are Shi'a and have a different set of laws. We are Sunni and don't listen to a word Iran says (uhm you may not know but Shi'a is by far the smaller sect, so this was a very bad example).

A common practice in the middle ages was to kill female babies by burying them alive, the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) forbade the practice and even stated that men who protect their female children, treating them as well as their sons, will be rewarded in heaven.

In Egypt with a population of some 80million people there are no official figures for rape, let alone child rape. A society that hides so effectively the sins every society suffers is not a healthy one. We do of course know that the Egyptian police are want to rape their male prisoners as a result of an infamous web blog last year.

At what point did I ever try to defend these people? I often post the attrocities that happen in this police state. Again you are rolling Islam and the practices of people calling themselves Muslim into one big pile and you shouldn't do that. That is like me saying UK is majority Christian so rape, robbery, adultery, etc is a result of Christian beliefs or teachings. Utter nonsense. As I posted before, child molesters here tend to just disappear - body and all, often happens to rapists too. Personally they get my vote - I'll hold the flashlight for them.

That said I would not be suprised, if there was some way to find out, the actual instances of rape are lower in Egypt than here in UK. But for all the wrong reasons.

As a woman I say I don't care what the reasons as long as I am less likely to be raped here than in UK.
 
The more I contemplate this the more I think churches need to welcome child molesters with open arms...and do their best to assist in their recoveries...it seems most appropriate.

Truly following spiritual principles isn't always easy.
 
Why hold on to the obvious? You too are capable of killing, stealing, decieving.... Child molesting.... Whatever.... Name it you are capable of it.... Specially killing. But, why hold on to that? Why look at the bad parts of a human... Try and look at their good points. Heck the majority of you are god lovers... But I still look past that to your good points...... (EDIT: ponders how many will see the light side of that lol....)

Since you were quoting me... I feel like I should at least address your comment, however in further readings I figure that I wouldn't say anything better than Muslimwoman so why beat a dead horse, eh?

However... I am not a "god lover" however I respect that many here, are in his many forms, and I think that you were right to question whether or not anyone would see the light side of that comment...
 
The more I contemplate this the more I think churches need to welcome child molesters with open arms...and do their best to assist in their recoveries...it seems most appropriate.

Truly following spiritual principles isn't always easy.

This is my dilemma Wil, following spiritual principles is not easy and I am only human. I feel it would quite easy to comment on what other people should do in this situation but if it was my church and my children would I feel the same way?

One of my problems is that statistics on these people show that more often than not, by the time they are caught it is highly unlikely to be their first instance, so are they just 'repenting' because they got caught? If it has taken years to create such a monster then why would they decide to change overnight?

Sorry I am usually quite decisive about my views but this one has me baffled, What would I do it was my church, my children?
 
Since you were quoting me... I feel like I should at least address your comment, however in further readings I figure that I wouldn't say anything better than Muslimwoman so why beat a dead horse, eh?

Sorry if I stole your spot Amy, I just couldn't read that without commenting on it.

Salaam
 
No, not at all MW. I loved your insight and felt that faithful Servant and I were going round and round. I just felt that even though I could not have said it better myself I should at least back you up with an "Aye! Aye!"
 
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