What's happened to Islam?

[iBrian]

What's happened to Islam, when it becomes regarded as acceptable to Muslim women and children?

I know - the extremism happening in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan - isn't typical of Islam, is seeded in US foreign policy, and have national political dimensions.

But at some point, these people being trained to carry out suicide bombings are being (apparently) told that their targets are not proper Muslims, and therefore it is acceptable to kill them.

And while we hear the Arab world condemning such bombings, we also see ugly political machinations - Iran wants to support the Iraqi Shi'as, Saudi Arabia wants to support the Sunni's.

We have a fracturing of the entire Middle East between Sunni and Shi'a Islam - previously at relative peace - and the extremists are blowing open the cracks where they can, inspiring even British Muslims to turn against any apparatus of a perceived enemy.

I dunno - I'm gobsmacked - when did any interpretation of Islam make it acceptable to kill women and children?

 

[flowperson]

Brian...I believe if you'll survey the entire Abrahamic field you'll notice this profound split between life and death issues. Or, one might say, orthodox and progressive issues and tendencies.

In Christianity it is more veiled and disguised, but there nonetheless when you consider the last ten years of evangelical sect and Anglican issues.

It seems to me to be what was behind at least the Rabin assassination and the Lebanese war last summer.

Yes it's happening in Islam also and will likely have more profound effects upon the reat of the world, mainly due to the oil thingy.

I sure hope that the powers that be come to their senses soon, for it looks like we might all be on an ominous pathway. One could surmise that it's always been that way in the so-called Western world all the way back to Moses. But then of course everything and everyone was not so interconnected and interdependent upon oneanother within relatively short time frames until quite recently you see.

flow....

 

[zeras]

Asalaamulikum,

I have to say very nice flowperson and I, Brian.
ok, you are saying why is Islam having problems,
Reason is simple, There are many fake muslims, which I consider,
Kaffirs, and yes that word doesn't mean Infidel, it's sad most ppl do thing that. In Islam you can have diffrent schools of thoughts, but you are not allowed to divide Islam into sects, for if you do you end up probleams like all other faiths of the world. It is very sad even today, none-muslims and some so called muslims belive that Sunni and Shia are based on religious practices
and teachings??? well did it start out like that?? answer is yes and no. Yes, slowly, teachings looks the same, in both areas, practices well a lil diffrent.but is it a religious problem like Orthodox, Catholicism and Protestantism???

hmmmmmmmm... well they have very diffrent teachings and interpretations,
within each tradition. But, the Sunni and Shia thing was a political movement and people try to make it a religious issues and today, peoples lives are being lost for dividing the religion. think about it! just for a political
problem on the Islamic state issue, funny and very sad thing is they are saying Sunni and Shia to rule, when there is no Islamic state today!!!!
And yes, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Mauritania say they have implemented the laws than why are they killing men, women and children alike??? simple they don't do research like the Sahabas
(Companions of the prophet muhammad {SAW}) and the Chilps
caliph, Ulama, etc.. all the good teachers. If you read they Qu'ran, and Hadiths/Sunnah you will see that you can't kill women and children, and if they are in the battlefield using weapons against you are suppose to still not allowed to attack them first, instead you are to look away from them and look for someone of your size. I trully belive that Jahiliyah (Jahiliyyah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) is back to this world. People wake up, read the Qu'ran, Hadiths and follow Sunnah and if you don't understand or thinks something you read seems wrong go to the nearest mosque, or next best thing, you can post a video on youtube and put good tags like islam, quran, help, etc.. there are many brothers, I know that helps people on Youtube. I'm going to have breakfast soon, I say to you.

Salaamulikum
(peace be with you all)

 

[Tao_Equus]

Hi all,

Like Flow says this is not confined to Islam and lets face it its not confined to our time.
I was reading on Wiki yesterday about early Christian and Judaic sects. There were just so many competing groups right from the dawn of written language. All of them arguing over who's book was the authentic "word of God" and over the ways that people should be worshipping and demonstrating their piety. And it seems to me if you were to replace today all the holy books and all the spurious histories they contain with a single book with just 2 words in it "Be Good", then within hours you would have the same problem. You would get the same self important ego's demanding that they know exactly what God meant by "be good" and before long "be good" would soon be believed by some as "be good at smiting your enemy". The problem is not religion. Its people. Its ego, powerlust and greed.

Tao

 

[Amica]

Salaam/Peace/Hello!

I am a Muslim and I myself ask similar question: What's happened to Muslims?

Islam as Islam has always been the same since the time of Abraham, according to the Holy Qur'an. It is the human generations that misrepresented it.

To my understanding of the Holy Qur'an, accusing someone of being kafir (unbeliever) when they declare themselves to be in submission to God AllMighty (Muslims; believers) is a sin, because no one but God knows who is a true believer at heart.

Even if a person is not a 'true' Muslim, one does not have to kill him/her for that. As evidenced by the Qur'an, the defensive amongst the early Muslims at the time of Prophet Muhammad saws happened because they were attacked first. God allowed war and commanded certain war fighting guidelines: do not kill women, children, elderly, and do not destroy even a tree in a battle. So, basically what this is tell us is that fight those that fight you first.
In a qur'anic verse (I am not sure which surah, please forgive me) it even states that when winning over an enemy town, be careful for among them might be believers.

Today, certain Muslims have no ethiquette of warfare (if there is such a thing). Blowing up oneself and many innocent lives only brings pain and misery to everyone on all sides. Does not accomplish a thing!

Prophet Muhammad saws at one time led a small army, but never told his men to kill themselves after fighting a battle. Sacrificing oneself in a battle by fighting for justice and freedom is completely different from going inside a bus and blowing everyone up--the people who did not do anything evil to the suicide bomber.

Killing civilians of any kind is such cowardly act.

There is a thing called interfaith dialogue and also religious education. If one thinks that a person should be ona right path, present the facts, engage in a healthy discussion with the person--do not attack him/her verbally or physically!

 

[Abdullah]

Islam forbids the killing of women and chidlren, allowing it under no circumstances whatsoever [except the one where a Muslim may face a woman soldier of the enemy in battle/war]. period.

Some radicals believe that it is ok to kill the women and children of non-Muslims in retaliation for the killing of Muslim women and children...that is why we see Muslim fanatics targetting non-Muslim civillians.

I think most of the Muslim woman and children that are killed by Muslim extremists are regarded by them as "collateral damage" and are not the intended target.

In Iraq, some Sunni fighters probably dont consider the shia's to be muslims, thus some of them may regard the shia civillians as legitimate 'eye for an eye' target; which Islam ofcourse doesn’t allow and thoroughly condemns.

Peace.

 

[Muslimwoman]

as salaam aleykum wr wb

What an interesting thread, thank you Brian.

What I find so saddening is that brothers and sisters have all said here "it is forbidden" yet the problem remains that it is in fact happening all over the world in Islam. So I think this is Brian's question, what has happened to Islam that we all know this is forbidden yet it is being taught in some mosques. Just this week a mosque in Italy was closed and proof removed that they were training terrorist techniques. So the idea of "if you don't understand something go to your nearest mosque" becomes a coin toss for many Muslims, what if we go to one of these mosques that have gone so far astray?

In Palastine they are using Mickey Mouse on tv to teach small chidren about Jihad. In Sharm el Sheikh the bombers knew that they were killing Muslims as well as non-Muslims (one of the bombs was driven into the staff rest room of a hotel - how is that collateral damage?). Recently we saw doctors (who took oaths to save lives) trying to kill civilian people and alhamdolillah they failed. What was their intended target, if not ordinary men, women and children? The doors of the airport perhaps? I think not. Listen to radio shows, Muslims will fry the board to call and complain about perceived insults to Islam but not a single call to protest and protect Islam when a bomb goes off. Is it not an insult to Islam and Allah (swt) that Muslims are killing innocent women and children?

The west does have a lot to answer for at the moment. Tony Blair will not talk with Hamas because USA will not deal with them. Did Northern Ireland teach him nothing? The IRA were terrorists and for so many years we refused to talk to them and people kept dying. I admit I was appalled when the UK government said they would talk to the IRA but it was only after these talks that anyone could see or find a way forward. We should learn from this, all sides must be included in talks or it is just a like minded group sitting around sipping tea and agreeing with each other.

Also part of the problem lies with peaceful Muslims, they are scared to speak out, they do not see it as their place to say another Muslim is wrong but you can bet your bottom dollar if I walk in the street without my hijab they will be lining up for miles to tell me how wrong I am!! I joined an Islamic forum recently and within one day cancelled my membership, when I saw the lectures on the 'sin' of 'spying' against other Muslims (ie reporting terrorist activity to the authorities or reporting mosques that teach terrorism). This was a UK site, so I also ask the question "what has happened to Islam?".

Salaam

 

[Friend]

We all should recognize the difference between political systems and real Islam,,, the use these conflicts to support their political positions as leaders,,,,,and i read convincing in I'brain opinion that all of what we see isn't from Islam as a peace religion.

Thanks to all

 

[Muslimwoman]

We all should recognize the difference between political systems and real Islam,,, the use these conflicts to support their political positions as leaders,,,,,and i read convincing in I'brain opinion that all of what we see isn't from Islam as a peace religion.

Thanks to all

But in Muslim countries are the political systems and Islam not the same thing? This surely is the whole point in Sharia, that there is no seperate religious and political systems?

Salaam

 

[Amica]

Peace/Salaam!

It is interesting that the majority of Muslims are like mute bystanders about EVERYTHING that is going on around them. Many of the Muslims in the countries outside the Middle East want so badly (myself included, I must admit!) to alianate themselves from the fanatical members of our Ummah (Community) that we let those individuals speak for us... But the only time the fanatical part of our Ummah speaks out, is when they recognize the insults to Islaam. However, they never recognize their own actions that insult Islam. At the same time, we--other Muslims around the globe, we still watch like it is not about us, like it all has nothing to do with us...

I think the problem lies in the fact that the whole Muslim Ummah is very disconnected with each other, we are unable to get together and fight the evil within our own backyard and the evil on the outside. The problem with Muslims amongst each other goes back to the time of the Prophet Muhammad saws. The Holy Qur'an mentions hypocrytes and similar many many times. But the Prophet and the early Muslims dealt with the situation fairly well, because they communicated to those Muslims who were willing to listen. They knew how to fight their jihad inside their hearts which empowered them to keep the Muslim Ummah stable.

Today, we lack the greatest jihad of all: the jihad of the heart. Certainly, as we have seen lately, this kind of jihad is seldom taught in many parts of the islamic communities and we, the Other Muslims of the Ummah, certainly do not have guts enought to stand up and speak out for justice.
Qur'an teaches us that we must tell the truth even if it is against our selves, our family, etc. And this time we must stand up the truth and face the fanatics that are adding to the insults that we have endured for centuries from many other religious groups.
But in order for us to change things for the postive for us and other people in the world, we must fix our own problems. Lets start with the Hadith for instance. How come the Hadith is more of authority than the Holy Qur'an? This has puzzled me for a long long time.... Many of the 'justicifications' that the fanatical members of Ummah express are derived from the Hadith rather than the Holy Qur'an? And Allah SWT said that the Holy Qur'an is the BEST Hadith we are given and that it is COMPLETE...

 

[bananabrain]

I joined an Islamic forum recently and within one day cancelled my membership, when I saw the lectures on the 'sin' of 'spying' against other Muslims (ie reporting terrorist activity to the authorities or reporting mosques that teach terrorism). This was a UK site, so I also ask the question "what has happened to Islam?".

surely the appropriate response would be to report this site to the relevant UK authorities, wouldn't you say? clearly if this is being discussed, that is a site that bears watching. i don't know if you have retained your UK citizenship, but this is certainly something you ought to do as a good citizen.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Muslimwoman]

I think the problem lies in the fact that the whole Muslim Ummah is very disconnected with each other, we are unable to get together and fight the evil within our own backyard and the evil on the outside. The problem with Muslims amongst each other goes back to the time of the Prophet Muhammad saws. The Holy Qur'an mentions hypocrytes and similar many many times. But the Prophet and the early Muslims dealt with the situation fairly well, because they communicated to those Muslims who were willing to listen. They knew how to fight their jihad inside their hearts which empowered them to keep the Muslim Ummah stable.

Salaam Amica

Nice post. Is this not the solution though? We cannot personally fight the fanatics but we can fight for the minds and hearts around us, as our Beloved Prophet (pbuh) taught us. When we speak to a Muslim that holds fanatical ideas or appears to be headed in that direction, should we not try to speak to them of the right path. We can go to our mosque and ask the Imams to speak to this person. If the problem lies in a certain mosque can we not keep our children from going and send them to a different mosque. I beleieve we can fight the fanatics by speaking out against them even just in places such as this forum, yes it is a small thing but if 1.3 billion people do it then that surely becomes a very loud voice?

 

[Muslimwoman]

surely the appropriate response would be to report this site to the relevant UK authorities, wouldn't you say? clearly if this is being discussed, that is a site that bears watching. i don't know if you have retained your UK citizenship, but this is certainly something you ought to do as a good citizen.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Shalom BB

Yes I am still a UK citizen and have already reported it. I passed my username and password over so the site could be monitored. There was nothing in the site I felt was particulrly dangerous but some attitudes were certainly worth watching. I just will not see my faith used by these people and the name of G-d taken so lightly and used for such purposes.

Salaam
MW

 

[Francis king]

what happened to Islam?

depends how u view Islam... most muslims appear to be no different from most christians- or most buddhists- or most jews- or most hindus... they want a decent life, to enjoy themselves, and be happy.

if u think of Islam and fundamentalism in the same breath, then...

it's the same thing that happened in Ireland, and the same thing that happens in every religious cult-

also just have to point out that traditionally the IRA would not harm innocents- they considered themselves to be a proper army, and that meant that they only attacked those considered to be acceptable targets- military targets- those who wore the colours... not woman, and children, and certainly the old school would never have tolerated the killing of innocents...

war might be brutal, but sometimes it appears necessary. If your country is invaded and within it u are reduced to a state of poverty and marginalised by invaders then it is ur duty to fight, to protect the innocents, and the women, to protect what it is u believe is worth fighting for... yet there should be morality in ur war- otherwise, u are a mercenary, and a low being...

and that's how it is, in fairytales, and Utopias... and maybe Lao Tsu's Art of War... (sp?)

the problems arise when we start to view others as enemies...

then, no longer do u view ppl as individuals, and give them the basic human respect u should give them, u see them as others, apart from u, and then it is easier to hate them. Once u hate "them", ppl are no longer ppl. You don't see dads, and mums, and grandchildren- u see an enemy...

instead of military targets, there are just targets...

but... imagine being a soldier, doing ur tour of Northern Ireland, and ur 19, and some little old lady who reminds u of ur own nanna hands u a plate of sandwiches, which u gratefully accept and devour, only to later discover she had put glass, or laxatives in them..?

or, u go out to the middle east, as a young soldier boy, hoping that ur going to have an okay time, and get home safely, and suddenly, real people are really trying to kill u... they don't want to kill u, the individual, but u- the enemy...

or what if ur just a kid, and u have to go through 15 checkpoints before u get to school, and u start to resent the system, but u can't beat the system, and so, u start to hate people... it's as easy as that...

persuade people to view others as "others", and as "enemies", and ur in... and on it goes...

most ppl are soft hearted and decent souls, and that is the problem... blessed are the sick, the weak, the vulnerable, the idealistic- as these ppl are easy to manipulate- u feed their delusions, u allow them to think that they can live in their Utopia, u feed their needs, u suck them in, and eventually, they forget about basic morality and succumb to the ideology of whatever cause it is which has sought to manipulate them...

although- one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter- let's not forget...

and yet- there is no morality in trying to blow up innocent ppl... for the IRA, they had a hell of a lot of sympathisers, all around the world- especially the US, but when they started bombing parades and shopping centres people started to feel less sympathetic towards them, and their plight.... and yet...

it starts early, the hate... I was encouraged to hate Protestants, and when the Orange Lodge marched down our Catholic street we went out and jeered at them, and threw stones at them. I didn't know them. But I knew they were the enemy...

but then... if u will stick innocent ppl away for committing terrorist acts, such as the British did with the "Guilford Four" and the "Birmingham Six", then don't be suprised if ppl hate the system and start to sympathise with the freedom fighters...

and so on it goes...

people are people all over the world... we forget that- we're scuppered...

 

[Muslimwoman]

also just have to point out that traditionally the IRA would not harm innocents- they considered themselves to be a proper army, and that meant that they only attacked those considered to be acceptable targets- military targets- those who wore the colours... not woman, and children, and certainly the old school would never have tolerated the killing of innocents...

I didn't think that when they put a bomb in my primary school in Germany. I do know what you are saying though, it seems that the younger generations join the struggle and just go one step too far. So many causes begin with real issues but end up with everyone fighting for the sake of it, often not really understanding what it is they are fighting for, just through hatred.

or, u go out to the middle east, as a young soldier boy, hoping that ur going to have an okay time, and get home safely, and suddenly, real people are really trying to kill u... they don't want to kill u, the individual, but u- the enemy...

I think you have hit the nail on the head there Francis. Lines are often not as black and white, right and wrong as we would like. Perhaps if they were it would be easier to keep people from committing such awful acts, which to the majority are so obviously wrong. It is also so easy to sit in our safe little bubble and express our opinions but as you say we don't know how it feels to have people with guns manhandling us through checkpoints on our way to school every day. We can't even imagine what that does to a young persons mind.

What saddens me though is that religion is so often used as the excuse for the violence, yet it is politics that they are really fighting for. There is nothing in the Quran that legitamises killing women and children in war, yet they are the targets of the bombers. As you say with the IRA, they lost a lot of support when they starting killing non-combatants and the Jihadists are doing the same. I have no doubt that if they attacked western military targets they would have much more support and be seen as freedom fighters, not terrorists.

What frustrates me is it took so much death for our government to learn that they had to include the IRA in talks or they would never get anywhere. Yet, here they are excluding Hammas because the US says so. When will they learn?

 

[Francis king]

indeed...

 

[bob x]

"But in Muslim countries are the political systems and Islam not the same thing? This surely is the whole point in Sharia, that there is no seperate religious and political systems?" [from MuslimWoman; sorry the Quote button isn't working for me again]

Now this puzzles me greatly. Didn't you tell me on the other thread that you reject Sharia in its entirety?

 

[Muslimwoman]

Now this puzzles me greatly. Didn't you tell me on the other thread that you reject Sharia in its entirety?

No I did not say that. Go back to that thread and read my response. Just for clarification, what I would reject is the current systems of Sharia. I would live under a system that used the Quran as the basis for Sharia law but not one that uses the Sunnah.

 

[Abdullah]

The laws of Muslim countries nowadays do not equall shariah [albeit some Muslim countries implement a few aspects or more of it], so in a sense, the general muslim countries have the 'seperation of state and religion' principle as part of their constitution.

Peace

 

[earl]

We fortunately have nothing but the voice of reason from Muslims in this thread and just to set the record straight lest their be any confusion I do indeed separate out the "radicals" from reasonable Muslims as to this issue. But I was just pondering this thread title today. I realize that radical Islam is basically a magnet for a variety of dispossessed and disaffected, (& probably mentally unbalanced), individuals from all over the globe. But there is something truly unique in the modern era re the worldwide violence perpetrated by these radicals. Sure there are or have been other "hot spots" where war & violence have been wrapped up in religious justifications-Northern Ireland and currently Israel. But if you think about it the combatants in those areas were simply about grabbing power/land. etc. in their immediate area. These radical Muslims are about more than that-they purportedly want to homogenize the world by forcing death or conversion to their religious views. I'm not much of a student of history but I cannot recall a "religious" collective attempting to do that since the medieval Christian church! Basically, you don't see any other religious collective attempting to kill for that reason alone in the modern era-not Christians, not Jews, not Buddhists, etc. Fundamentalist Christians might think you're going to hell if you don't convert but they're generally not going to attempt to help you along the way there by ending your life. So cannot help but ask as I know so little about Islam-is there something unique to this religion that allows the "unbalanced" to pervert their religion into a world-wide slash and burn campaign that you just don't see in any other religious group? No offense intended and thanks, earl