What's happened to Islam?

[InLove]

Hi All. I've been reading along on the thread, and I wonder if anyone has seen the History Channel's program called "Cities of Light: Islamic Spain"? It touches on some of the issues you have been discussing here. I thought it was a beautifully produced program and a bit of an eye-opener. Of course I realize that things go back much farther, and I am no expert, so I don't know what they may have missed, but I have been wanting to mention it. If you get a chance, check it out....

InPeace,
InLove

 

[InLove]

I just realized that the program I referred to in my last post aired on the Public Broadcasting System in the U.S., not The History Channel. Sorry about the misinformation. Maybe the BBC will or has scheduled it. The full title is "Cities of Light: The Rise and Fall of Islamic Spain". Of course, it doesn't delve into all the details of strife among various Islamic viewpoints, but it does serve to illustrate part of the historical power struggle between the Abrahamic religions. It is a poignant look at just how much we have all lost in the wake of the battles waged in the interest of absolutism.

Just wanted to clear that up.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Eclectic Mystic]

What's happened to Islam, when it becomes regarded as acceptable to Muslim women and children?

I know - the extremism happening in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan - isn't typical of Islam, is seeded in US foreign policy, and have national political dimensions.

But at some point, these people being trained to carry out suicide bombings are being (apparently) told that their targets are not proper Muslims, and therefore it is acceptable to kill them.

And while we hear the Arab world condemning such bombings, we also see ugly political machinations - Iran wants to support the Iraqi Shi'as, Saudi Arabia wants to support the Sunni's.

We have a fracturing of the entire Middle East between Sunni and Shi'a Islam - previously at relative peace - and the extremists are blowing open the cracks where they can, inspiring even British Muslims to turn against any apparatus of a perceived enemy.

I dunno - I'm gobsmacked - when did any interpretation of Islam make it acceptable to kill women and children?

What in God's name are you talking about? This entire post has nothing to do with Islam or religion. These people would be doing what they're doing regardless of the fake justification (Islam in this case). If their religion was that of Conan the Barbarian's Crom, then they would be killing in the name of Crom. "These People" exist in every cultre. It's just that these particular middle easterrners are more honest and blatant about their intentions. But why does it matter if you are a middle eastern suicide bomber or some other decadent 21st century shlop responsible for the deaths of thousands of people. Furthermore, westerners (Americans, Brits, or Scotts like you and me) have no business being there in the first place. Have a beer.

 

[bob x]

" "These People" exist in every cultre."
What in God's name are you talking about? No, we don't find this kind of thing in every culture.

 

[wil]

" "These People" exist in every cultre."
What in God's name are you talking about? No, we don't find this kind of thing in every culture.

Which culture don't we? Other than one which irradicates the many to insure they get the few?

I lived across the street from an abortion clinic bomber...didn't know it till after the headlines... In retrospect I believe he was as Christian as they are Muslim.

 

[Abdullah]

" "These People" exist in every cultre."
What in God's name are you talking about? No, we don't find this kind of thing in every culture.

Bob,

Does 'state terrorism' count, when taking into account wether 'these people' exist in every culture/religion?

 

[bananabrain]

ooh, yes, let's seek an excuse to bash israel and the US!! because one is run according to jewish law and the other according to the new testament, isn't that right?

sheesh.

*rolls eyes*

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Friend]

Ok,,,

If we think about the real life in Muslims and arab countries from the time of discovering oil in their land until now we can find the answer...The plans of west ...the colonization...the suffering..all these,,created the violence.
Before the western invading of Islamic lands ,,, Do you hear about detonatings suicidal?????


It is not Islam,,,but political Chaos

Thanks

 

[wil]

Ok,,,

If we think about the real life in Muslims and arab countries from the time of discovering oil in their land until now we can find the answer...The plans of west ...the colonization...the suffering..all these,,created the violence.
Before the western invading of Islamic lands ,,, Do you hear about detonatings suicidal?????


It is not Islam,,,but political Chaos

Thanks

Namaste Friend,

You are correct, in my case I know very little about the last 1000 years of history in your part of the world. Sure there were the crusades and the ebb and flow of empires...but of details I know none. It is my impression that it was all quite tribal until the 20th century when we westerners decided to draw some lines in the sand and carve out countries...

Surely suicide bombers are reflective of desperation and lack of technology/equipment to attack from a distance. But are you indicating that the various tribes were peaceful nomads leading a Hollywood Sheik existence without warring and violence amongst each other?

 

[Muslimwoman]

So cannot help but ask as I know so little about Islam-is there something unique to this religion that allows the "unbalanced" to pervert their religion into a world-wide slash and burn campaign that you just don't see in any other religious group? No offense intended and thanks, earl

Hi Earl

No offense taken and in the current global climate it seems a perfectly legitimate question.

I would have to answer honestly - Yes. It is not the teaching of the Quran that allows this but the interpretations and human meddling over centuries.

I believe this has come about for a couple of reasons:

If you read the more radical Muslim sites one of the main topics for some time has been that Muslims are not allowed to grass on other Muslims. So if you know your neighbour is going to blow up a cafe of innocent people you are not allowed to tell the police - yeah right. This comes from the teaching of Muslim brotherhood, an excellent teaching if taken as it was intended but as we can see from this example it can also be twisted into something very ugly.

The difference I feel between Islam and other religions is that we not only have the Quran (our scriptures) but also the hadiths (the narrated sayings and actions of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)). These were written long after the death of the Prophet and many are known to be 'weak' (not true). Many of the 'issues' people have with Islam come purely from the hadiths and their interpretations. I believe that any faith that relied not only on their scripture but also on unverifiable narrated sayings would face the same problems.

Another difficulty is that we do not have religious leadership (like the Vatican or Church leaders), we have scholars but they simply give their opinions, which we can accept or reject. In one way a good thing but in another not. Take the issue of condemnation of terrorist activities, most scholars will not come out and absolutely condemn these acts, because scholars are not leaders and therefore cannot judge (go back to the above issue of brotherhood). Of course this is simply an excuse because when they want to give an absolute opinion you can be damned sure they have no trouble doing so, so it is just a get out clause - of which we have too many.

Islam has not changed for 1400 years, from a time of tribal grudges and warfare and by following the hadiths we are effectively thinking as people did during this time. I am not suggesting for one second that we change the Quran but we do need to go back and interpret the Quran in light of modern times and values.

Salaam

 

[Friend]

Namaste Friend,


Surely suicide bombers are reflective of desperation and lack of technology/equipment to attack from a distance. But are you indicating that the various tribes were peaceful nomads leading a Hollywood Sheik existence without warring and violence amongst each other?

Hi

I know that when Islam came,,,everything change...He call for peace between people,,,but give us the permission to self defence.

I'm not agree with this unhuman behaviour at all,,, but try to find the seeds of the violence in our world...
What happened? to reach this sorry events around the world

The Followers of ben ladin thoughts are inattentive people,,,and this violence movements started since soviat-afghanistan war at the time of cold war between Amrican and russians,,,American support these people and trained them and used them to accomplish their plans...

Now is it fairness to make Islam the first responsible behind their dangerous?

 

[wil]

...we do not have religious leadership (like the Vatican or Church leaders)

Namaste MW, need I indicate you should watch what you wish for...

Islam has not changed for 1400 years, from a time of tribal grudges and warfare and by following the hadiths we are effectively thinking as people did during this time. I am not suggesting for one second that we change the Quran but we do need to go back and interpret the Quran in light of modern times and values.

lol....Like you are the only religion that has that issue! It is funny how science, math, language all evolve yet we take ancient texts who were made for and by the ancients and think everything should apply today despite the rest of knowledge and consciousness moving forward. I grant that they should stay as historical books, that they are a valuable resource and I would always reference them. But I am not Amish and have no interest in living in a physical home without electricity, high speed, plumbing, conditioned air, etc. why on earth would I relegate and confine my thought and spiritual home so?

Now is it fairness to make Islam the first responsible behind their dangerous?

....Muslims are not allowed to grass on other Muslims. So if you know your neighbour is going to blow up a cafe of innocent people you are not allowed to tell the police

Namaste Friend,

Yes, like Christians must stand up, arrest, try, and convict violent KKK members, abortion clinic bombers, etc...Muslims must police their own or risk being seen as guilty by association by the rest of the world. I am not making the rules nor judging, simply stating reality.

 

[wil]

Failed suicide bomber turns on al Qaeda

Failed suicide bomber turns on al Qaeda


Al Shayea renounced terrorism and returned to Saudi Arabia, where he works to convince would-be insurgents and terrorists to give up their deadly ways.
"I think God took me out of death to show others what can happen," he told CNN. "If you join al Qaeda, they will use you, and maybe you will die."...more

Al Qaeda propaganda videos glorify so-called foreign fighters in Iraq like al Shayea. It has recruited them from countries all across the Middle East.
Some Iraqi officials say more Saudis than any other nationality have responded to al Qaeda's call. Saudi officials and the U.S. military deny that claim. But Saudi sources do admit that more than 800 young Saudis have gone to Iraq to fight. That's far more than the Saudi government has acknowledged until now.
Since 9/11, when 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudis, the oil rich kingdom has been accused of spreading radicalism. It's a claim that stings this longtime U.S. ally, which also finds itself in al Qaeda's cross hairs.

So now, Saudi officials say they are escalating their fight against homegrown al Qaeda militants. Former insurgents and terrorists like al Shayea are their chief weapon in the battle for the hearts and minds of young Saudis.
"The reality behind it is the religious misunderstanding of Islam, so we have to correct the ideas," said Dr. Mansour al Turki, a psychologist.


Al Shayea and hundreds of other Saudis who were aligned with terrorists are being re-educated in prisons and rehabilitation centers. They are taught that al Qaeda's emphasis on a violent approach to Islam is wrong.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Like you are the only religion that has that issue! It is funny how science, math, language all evolve yet we take ancient texts who were made for and by the ancients and think everything should apply today despite the rest of knowledge and consciousness moving forward.

This I believe is where Islam has to go, if Muslims wish to live in this world peacefully Wil. The Quran cannot and must not be changed to suit peoples desires but it can be reinterpreted in light of modern knowledge and morals. We can see, as Islam expands throughout the world how interpretations are made in light of cultural norms and desires. How this can be stopped I do not know, my only thought is that there needs to be a global council for Muslim scholars and the concensus of this council should be widely published and accepted by all Muslims. They should issue and distribute joint fatwas, so there can be no misunderstanding of their views. Have you tried to find the consensus of opinion of Islamic scholars on an issue? It is a nightmare, all you find are scholars opinions that state the consensus says a, b or c. But of course you then find other scholars that state the consensus is x, y and z. It is time for leadership of the Ummah imo.

Yes,

like Christians must stand up, arrest, try, and convict violent KKK members, abortion clinic bombers, etc...Muslims must police their own or risk being seen as guilty by association by the rest of the world. I am not making the rules nor judging, simply stating reality.

Wil, who actually does the policing in the Christian church? Who arrests and tries the KKK, is it the state or the church itself?

I would assume that most Christians never come into contact with KKK members or bombers, so how does the average Chistian fight such radical violence?

 

[wil]

Wil, who actually does the policing in the Christian church? Who arrests and tries the KKK, is it the state or the church itself?

I would assume that most Christians never come into contact with KKK members or bombers, so how does the average Chistian fight such radical violence?

The state, when people violate civil and criminal laws it is upto the political system to handle it. However it is upto the individual whatever religion to stand up and be counted in this regard...and not let our religion keep us from our duty. ie if a policeman, judge, or witness decides that they should not prosecute their duty as the accused is a member of the same church, denomination or sect, that dilutes the law and justice.

In the bible it is said we should not judge, and that we should be forgiving, yet our societal ways have instituted that we create judges and juries who follow man's laws here and now.

I'm sure these very same issues occur within the Koran and even more so within countries that use religious law....but the fact remains...if any organization is not policed from within....it will be policed from without....and it isn't pretty.

 

[Muslimwoman]

The state, when people violate civil and criminal laws it is upto the political system to handle it. However it is upto the individual whatever religion to stand up and be counted in this regard...and not let our religion keep us from our duty. ie if a policeman, judge, or witness decides that they should not prosecute their duty as the accused is a member of the same church, denomination or sect, that dilutes the law and justice.

So it is actually the state, which works for all its people that holds this responsibility.

This is one of the difficulties for the average person on the street. These people socialise with like minded people, they tend to guard their views and share them only amongst 'their own kind'. So you don't have the KKK round for a barbeque and I don't have radical islamists over for supper. These extremists do not all live in one country and most countries, even the Muslim ones, are trying to stop these people but it isn't that easy. How do you tell if someone is in the KKK, or bombs abortion clinics or is a radical islamist?

So I feel it is easy to say 'we the Muslims' must do something about it, I say it myself often enough but the question is how? As the Christian church has required the state to take action against the KKK and clinic bombers, Islam needs the Muslim states to take action against the extremists, to re-educate them, to stop allowing this nonsense on tv. However, many of these radical extremists are now 'home grown', we need to deal with the institutes that are creating these people. To be honest the Christian church is not actually able to take direct action against these people - we have the same problem in Islam.

One of the difficulties in Islam is that when a scholar states an opinion that agrees with the state, that scholar is often seen as a state puppet and their opinion rejected. It also takes a great deal of strength and character for a scholar to stand up and condemn these killings, against the generally accepted view. Perhaps it is here that pressure needs to be placed, to re-educate the educators but this can only come from within if it is to succeed and this is going to take time. Of course what would help a great deal is if the west would change it's foreign policies quite drastically.

In the bible it is said we should not judge, and that we should be forgiving, yet our societal ways have instituted that we create judges and juries who follow man's laws here and now.

You are right Wil, we are told in the Quran that it is not our place to judge people, only Allah (swt) can do this. However, Islam also deals with every aspect of society and punishment for crimes, so we are given obligations as a society to deal with crimes and give punishments. What we must do in this life is judge only the crimes against sopciety committed, the sins of the soul are only for G-d to judge.

 

[zeras]

Sorry I had edit it and logged in and off.

 

[zeras]

What's happened to Islam, when it becomes regarded as acceptable to Muslim women and children?

I know - the extremism happening in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan - isn't typical of Islam, is seeded in US foreign policy, and have national political dimensions.

But at some point, these people being trained to carry out suicide bombings are being (apparently) told that their targets are not proper Muslims, and therefore it is acceptable to kill them.

And while we hear the Arab world condemning such bombings, we also see ugly political machinations - Iran wants to support the Iraqi Shi'as, Saudi Arabia wants to support the Sunni's.

We have a fracturing of the entire Middle East between Sunni and Shi'a Islam - previously at relative peace - and the extremists are blowing open the cracks where they can, inspiring even British Muslims to turn against any apparatus of a perceived enemy.

I dunno - I'm gobsmacked - when did any interpretation of Islam make it acceptable to kill women and children?

Asalaamulikum,

this is a very important issuse. Ok, couple of things that I want everyone to realize! Sunni and Shia are not and I repeat NOT different sects that belive in total diffrent views!! Than what about today! Today, yes there are soo many diffrent sub-sects and are adding there own views into the that sect, which means it is no longer a unified religion. Sunni and Shia was *keyword* was a political struggle basically. The ones who supported Abu Bakr (R.A.) were Sunni and the ones who supported more on the family and friends of Ali (R.A.) were Shia. But this did not make Sunni and Shia diffrent things and people didn't go around attacking because of political favoring, like today. The most important factor is the Unified Islamic state. soo the whole stuggling is pointless.

*MUST WATCH* very good, and touchs on the big
points in small time.

Sunni / Shia Problem #2 (Part 1 of 2)
YouTube - Sunni / Shia Problem #2 (Part 1 of 2)

Sunni / Shia Problem #2 (Part 2 of 2)
YouTube - Sunni / Shia Problem #2 (Part 2 of 2)


I see the whole Sunni and Shia thing is a waist. Because, a Muslim trys to follow the Sunnah, not only that but a muslim respects all other muslims, I don't know a singel muslim who can say oh we don't like Abu Bakr (R.A.) or Ali (R.A.) what this is crazy!!! they are one of the most highest honored rulers of Islam. Abu Bakr (R.A.) was the first chaliph and Ali (R.A.) was the fouth chaliph!? so what is the prob. I think people are not studying enough and allowing others to think for them. If you do that do you never question and look up the truth for yourself, or do you let someone talk for you for everything?!

The Rightly Guided Caliphs
Rashidun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The whole idea of killing women and children, that is crazy. Ok, my home country has the third largest muslim population in the world, but I don't see every singel person living and acting under the teaching, I mean I see many people smoking and waitsing time.

Please watch!
why Propaganda Against Islam, Islam say about 7/7 and 9/11
YouTube - why Propaganda Against Islam, Islam say about 7/7 and 9/11

Killing any human being is wrong.
I mean seriously if you think about it, we are all brothers and sisters, Childern of Adam (peace be upon him) and Eve (peace be upon her). Why should we fight each other, it's madness. Iraq is very complex. There are many things that are not told in the media and also. While I was talking my American/National Gov't course, we learned somethings about Iraq, that many people on the classes was shocked as if it were something they herd was new and shocked them.

Islam on Tolerance By Dr.Zakir Naik
YouTube - Islam on Tolerance By Dr.Zakir Naik

Is Islam spread by the sword?
YouTube - Is Islam spread by the sword?

Why are most of the muslims Fundamentalist?
YouTube - Why are most of the muslims Fundamentalist?

I think people need to go, study and strive to learn.

Salaamulikum
(peace be with you all)

 

[Muslimwoman]

*MUST WATCH* very good, and touchs on the big
points in small time.

Sunni / Shia Problem #2 (Part 1 of 2)
YouTube - Sunni / Shia Problem #2 (Part 1 of 2)

Sunni / Shia Problem #2 (Part 2 of 2)
YouTube - Sunni / Shia Problem #2 (Part 2 of 2)

wa aleykum salaam wr wb wa ramadan kareem

Absolutely wonderful video's and alhamdolillah they are aimed at the young, these videos are an honest look at the history and political (non religious) struggles in the early days of Islam. They also demonstrate how Islam is used by people with political intent but are not acting as Muslims. I hope many peole will take the time to watch these video's. This is exactly the sort of information we should be providing for our young. Thank you so much for sharing them with us zeras

I think people are not studying enough and allowing others to think for them. If you do that do you never question and look up the truth for yourself, or do you let someone talk for you for everything?!

Agreed completely. You have provided some wonderful links zeras and I thank you. I have learnt much from them and hope that others do too.

The whole idea of killing women and children, that is crazy. Ok, my home country has the third largest muslim population in the world, but I don't see every singel person living and acting under the teaching, I mean I see many people smoking and waitsing time.

May I ask where your home country is?

I think one problem for non Muslims looking in zeras, is that they see Muslims reading the Quran and shouting AllahuAkbar and then killing people. It is very difficult to explain that these people have strayed from the teaching of Islam and have been taught a distorted interpretation. We know that this is not allowed in Islam but what non Muslims find difficult to understand is why the Muslims that are killing do not know this. I think this is what people are trying to understand, because some Muslims are saying it is haram and others are saying it is an Islamic duty. They can only find out the truth by reading the Quran with an open heart.

*Please watch!
why Propaganda Against Islam, Islam say about 7/7 and 9/11
YouTube - why Propaganda Against Islam, Islam say about 7/7 and 9/11

This video makes an excellent point, yes Muslims must condemn the 7/7 & 9/11 attrocities but we MUST also condemn the attrocities happening against Muslims in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. Non Muslims should also condemn these attrocities, all of them.

I think people need to go, study and strive to learn.

Sah (you are correct). I am going to study now.

Salaam

 

[Eclectic Mystic]

ooh, yes, let's seek an excuse to bash israel and the US!! because one is run according to jewish law and the other according to the new testament, isn't that right?

sheesh.

*rolls eyes*

b'shalom

bananabrain

Look at the title of the thread.