Christian Lord's Prayer related to Jewish Kaddish?

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by inge.hobert, Feb 22, 2004.

  1. inge.hobert

    inge.hobert New Member

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    Is the Christian Lord's Prayer an original personal prayer of Jesus or
    is it only the modified version of an old Jewish prayer in the
    Talmud, known as the Kaddish? Please quote the Kaddish. Thanks for any
    help!
     
  2. brucegdc

    brucegdc Moderator

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    Yitgadal v'yitkaddash shmei rabba...

    Oh you wanted it in something other than aramaic???

    My personal take is that it is a variant - possibly a predecessor, or developed around the same time. I'm sure that more scholarly types than I will jump to correct me, but the timeframe it was developed could be about 2000 years ago - although a quick web search mentioned the first known appearance of it in the liturgy about 1300 CE.

    Transliteration & translation below, but I see a lot of the same themes - with the exception of the "give us this day our daily bread" - the Kaddish is pure praise, no requests.

    There's a translation at http://www.jewfaq.org/prayer/kaddish.htm - I've cut & pasted it below, with the aramaic and English interleaved.
     
  3. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    at the time of jesus, there was not much in the way of "set liturgy". when they weren't utilising the Temple sacrificial system, people generally prayed at home and in a personal, private manner. the first bit of set liturgy was the "18 benedictions", usually known as the "amidah", which was formalised during the talmudic period. i would therefore say that the "lord's prayer" is probably the personal "minhag" or custom of himself. either way, there's nothing in it that is exceptionable from a jewish point of view - other then, perhaps, a propensity to interpret it to mean that G!D would provide you with your daily bread rather than you having to get out and earn it yourself by your own effort.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  4. neoxenos

    neoxenos New Member

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    I do not know if The Lord's Prayer is an adaptation of something older, however the prayer is intentionally divided into Seven Petitions:

    1. Our Father who art in Heaven.
    2. Hallowed be thy name.
    3. Thy Kingdom come.
    4. Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
    5. Give us this day our daily bread.
    6. Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us.
    7. And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil.
    (http://www.gnostickabbalah.com/Commandments/comm 02c.html)

    The number Seven is very important in Kabbalah: Seven Days of Creation, Seven Chruches in Assiah (mistranslated as "Asia," which are none else than the Seven Chakras of Eastern Philosophy), Seven Nagas of Buddhism, Seven Seals, Seven lower sephiroth plus three upper sephiroth give us 10, the Tree of Life, the Aracnum 10 of Tarot, the Wheel of Fortune, The Wheel of Samara, or the Ten Commandments.
     
  5. Avinash

    Avinash New Member

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    My personal feeling on the Lord's Prayer is that the first four lines mentioned by Neoxenos are the strongest and most in line with the teachings of Jesus as I see them. The first two lines more or less coincide with the general "prayer" or mantra that my own tradition uses.
     
  6. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste all,


    my own exploration of the Christian theological traditions has led me to the opinion that the Lords Prayer isn't a "prayer" per se, rather, it is the template of the way that prayers should be structured to God.

    now...i should point out that my Christian theological training is from the Protestant point of view, and Baptist in particular... as such, some may disagree with me :)
     
  7. Operacast

    Operacast Member

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    <SNIP>

    Personally, I tend to err more on the side of scrutinizing first whatever there is that modern textual scholarship derives from the assortment of different texts involved here. In other words, I'm not pretending infallibility here (neither does modern textual criticism!), but I'm applying whatever degree of light that modern scholarship can shed on this question, and I'm applying that usefulness using modern textual scholarship more as a servant than as a master.

    The formulations of the Lord's Prayer in the Gospels are based on two passages, one in Matthew and one in Luke. These passages are generally regarded as part of an entire network of texts/passages embedded throughout both Matthew and Luke and marked -- apparently, anyway, as I am not personally fluent or even conversant with ancient Greek -- by a distinct style all their own not at all similar to the style of Greek characteristic of the surrounding narrative.

    A 19th-century German scholar (I believe?) first posited the question -- since answered in the affirmative by numerous scholars of the past century -- as to whether or not this entire network of passages, frequently strikingly similar in appearance both in Matthew and in Luke, might not hark back to an extremely early "sayings" Gospel now lost. Since the German word "Quelle" means "source", this supposed lost collection of sayings acquired the scholarly term of the "Q" Gospel, and the mainstream scholars of today generally accept the probable existence of such a lost sayings Gospel, although some view it as an actual text that was lost and others view it as primarily a highly resilient oral tradition. Since the "Q" Gospel is generally viewed as earlier than any extant Gospel around today, there is the assumption by many that these passages (they nearly all constitute quotations of direct remarks by Jesus himself) come closer to what Jesus himself said than any other nexus of texts.

    Careful analysis of the Matthew and Luke versions of these parallel passages has appeared to point to the conclusion that -- generally speaking, at least -- the Luke versions of these so-called "Q" passages may reflect a slightly less "edited" transmission of these parallel texts than those found in Matthew, notwithstanding the generally earlier date of Matthew's overall composition.

    In fact, when we examine both Lord's Prayer versions, the Luke version (and, as I say, the Lord's Prayer in both Matthew and Luke are both generally taken to be Q Gospel passages) may -- IF, that is, we adopt the methodology of modern scholarship's conclusions here -- get us as close to Jesus's own words as we can reasonably expect. Certainty may not be possible, but the relative simplicity of the Luke formulation -- as contrasted with the Matthew -- remains striking, IMO:

    "Our Father, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come.
    "Give us day by day our daily bread.
    "And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us.
    "And lead us not into temptation."

    Granted, all this remains, ultimately, speculation. But IMHO, the kind of decades of close intense work reflected here seems worth applying _in_ _addition_ to other considerations that others here may bring to this discussion that may be equally legitimate, though entirely different.

    Respectfully,

    Operacast
     
  8. Avinash

    Avinash New Member

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    Namaskar,

    My personal vision of the teachings of Jesus is based on what I consider to be the oldest layer of 'Q' (also called Formative-Q). As scholarship on Q has made different reconstructions of this hypothetical Formative-Q, I have been so bold as to make my own (slightly different) version. When I examine the teachings, praying for daily bread and asking for forgiveness of sins and not to lead into temptation seem to be at odds with the teachings of Jesus. I do agree though that it remains speculation.
     
  9. Operacast

    Operacast Member

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    FWIW, I've put up a strictly provisional Q sequence of my own, listing Luke verses only and keyed to a plausible chronology tied to the Mark narration (Mark's being generally judged the earliest extant Gospel). It consists of 34 pericopes:

    http://www.operacast.com/untitled/qsequence.htm

    But please, I'd be sincerely interested in knowing if your own sequence can also be viewed by the rest of us anywhere on the Web. I'd be fascinated -- No, truly.

    Best,

    Operacast
     
  10. Avinash

    Avinash New Member

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    Extent of Formative-Q (Q1)

    Namaskar,

    Thank you, I looked at your Q sequence. Q however is more extensive than Formative-Q and contains added sayings by the redactors of Q. The basic "core sayings" called Q1 by Burton Mack and Formative-Q by others is smaller than Q, with fewer pericopes. Formative Q has quite a different "sitz im leben" than Q does (was used by a different type of community with a different outlook).

    Unfortunately I don't have my own web-site but I can give it you here and now. I'll give you the versions of Burton Mack, John Kloppenborg and Leif Vaage as well. Theirs is a Cynic Jesus, mine a Tantric Jesus.

    I have included parts of Matthew which no-one accepts as belonging to Q. I do so because they are not typical for Matthew's theology and fit very well with the Jesus teachings as I see them. I can't explain though why these important pericopes would not have appeared in the copy of Q (the author of) Luke used or why Luke would have left them out.

    The extent of Formative-Q is very uncertain, especially since many scholars often don't seem to understand their original meaning. When I corresponded with Kloppenborg on the extent of Formative-Q, he expressed that he had doubts about quite a number of sayings.

    The so-called sondergut sayings are Q-sayings that don't have a parallel in either Luke or Matthew but are considered to have come from Q (they are in bold).

    FORMATIVE-Q

    ----
    Kloppenborg & Vaage

    Luke:
    6: 20b-49 [Vaage + 7:24b-26, 28a, 33-34]
    9: 57-60, 61-62
    10: 2-11, 16 [Vaage -10: 2 & 7b]
    11: 2-4, 9-13 [Vaage +11:14-20, 24-26, 39-48, 52]
    12: 2-7, 11-12, 22-31, 33-34
    13: 18-19, 24 [Vaage + 13: 20-21]
    14: 26-27, 34-35
    16: 13
    17: (1-2?, 3-4?, 6?), 33
    Matthew:
    5: 41
    -----
    Mack

    6: 20-21, 27-49
    8: 18-22
    10: 1-11
    11: 1-4, 9-13, 33-35
    12: 2-3, 4-7, 13-14, 16-31, 33-34
    13: 18-21
    14: 11, 16-24, 26-27, 34-35
    17: 33
    18: 14
    ----
    Avinash

    Luke:
    6: 20b, (22-23?), 27-33, 35c-37, 38c-42, 44-49
    9: 57-60, 61-62
    10: 3-6, 10-11ab, 16, 19-20, (24?)
    11: 2bc [Mt 6:10b], 9-20a, 21-26, (27-28?), 33-34, (39-40?), 43, 46, 52
    12: 2-3a, 4-7, 11-15, 22-31, 33b-34, 39, 49, 51bc, 54-56, 58-59
    13: 18-19, (20-21?), 24, 30bc
    14: (5?), 11, 26, (27?), 28-32, 34-35
    16: 13
    17: 1-4, 6, (7-10?), 20b-21, 33, 37b
    18: 14cd, (17?)
    19: 12-27

    Matthew:
    5: 41
    6: 1-8, 10b, 16-18, (34?)
    7: 6
    11: (28-30?)
    18: (3-4a?), 8-9
    19: (11-12?)

    ----
    Best wishes.
     
  11. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

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    I think of the daily bread as spiritual bread, as well acknowledging that all we have comes from God.

    I think of forgiveness as one of the central teachings of Jesus. Not that we can do anything we want without accountability if we "just believe and repent." But trying to love and forgive those who do you wrong is liberating.

    My 2 cents.
     
  12. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    wurrrrrl, i don't know about all this source crit stuff, but i think there are another three lines in the LP:

    8: for Thine is the kingdom
    9. the power & the glory
    10. for ever and ever amen

    unless of course you split up power and glory, in which case you get 11, which only relates to the spices of the ketoret or Temple incense.

    and, furthermore, with regard to numbers, not all 10s are the same, nor are all sevens, especially across cultures. i used to know a really good numbers site which showed the number occurences in the jewish sources, but i can't find it right now.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  13. Operacast

    Operacast Member

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    The chief source for these three lines is Matthew, and since we were concentrating for the moment on the Luke version, these got overlooked here. Some scholars today believe these three lines may be a later addition to a prayer that may only be close to what Jesus _might_ have said in the shorter Luke version rather than in the longer Matthew one.

    Best,

    Operacast
     
  14. pohaikawahine

    pohaikawahine Elder Member

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    Here are some other references to seven that will tie in with the seven parts of the Lords prayer ....

    "invoke Hermes and the Sun in the same way, On Sun;s day, and (invoke) the Moon when her day comes, Then Cornos and Rhea, and next Aphrodite, with silent prayer, invented by the greatest mage, King of the Seven notes, known to all" "the seven vowels celebrate me, the great imperishable God, indefatigable Father of All. I am the imperishable lyre, having tuned the lyric songs of the celestial vortex" and "De Elocutione of Demetrius ... In Egypt the priests, when singing hymns in praise of the gods, employ the seven vowels, which they utter in due succession" .... and yes, it is also my understanding, that these are related to the concept of the seven chakras or energy ceters within the body .... even the seven plagues symbolize various parts of the body and nervous system .... each of the seven parts of the Lords prayer is set in a pattern that opens one of the seven energy centers and is also associated with a particular church in europe (because the old churches were laid out in a pattern that took one who walked the path of the pilgram through seven stages of initiation) .... it is also connected with the 4 brain wave states and the musical notes (seven) ....

    Colors Musical Note

    Red F Sharp
    Orange B Flat
    Yellow G Major
    Green C/E Combined
    Blue D Sharp
    Indigo A Minor
    Violet B/D/G (A TRINITY) COMBINED

    prayers, mantras, chanting .... all do the same thing when done in the right sequence .... the Lords prayer has a pattern and a purpose ....

    here are more seven's .... the egyptians had seven original and higher gods; the phoenicians seven kabiris, the persians seven sacred horses of mithra; the parsees seven angels opposed by seven demons and seven celestial abodes paralled by seven lower regions (to represent this more clearly in a concrete form the seven gods were sometimes represented as one seven-headed deity), the buddhists have seven stages of progressive development of the disembodied soul, allegorized by the seven stories and umbrellas, gradually diminishing towards the top of the pagoda; there are the seven gates, seven altars, seven mysteries; seven steps or rungs of jacob's ladder; seven wonders of the world ..... etc.... the list of seven's goes on and on ..... but why, because they are there as reminders of who we are .... seven is always the completion of a cycle (even in the south pacific, navagators know to ride in on the seventh wave of the cycle of waves) and every seven years we are born anew because all our skin and cells have been replaced ..... 3 + 4 are the symbols of the male and female energies that merge to bridge heaven and earth; seven trees; seven sons; sapta samudra - the seven holy seas; sapta parvatta - the seven holy mountains; the sapta arania -the seven deserts; sapta vriksha - the seven sacred trees ....

    so the question .... are they related, the Lords prayer and the Jewish Kaddish .... yes I believe they are, but not in the way one would normally think .... they both derive from a deep source of knowledge related to an ancient path of enlightnment .... like the deep dark blue (almost black) of the ocean depth .... one can see the shape, but it is distorted like looking through veils .... just out of reach, one must dive deeper and deeper into the mystery holding your breath and then finally you simply let go and you arrive ..... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine
     
  15. dauer

    dauer Active Member

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    I think maybe the Lord's Prayer wasn't necessarily directly related to the kaddish, but was Jesus using common prayer language to show them how to pray, like if you've ever seen someone very spiritual connect to God somehow. But all that survived were the words. Because most of that language is common Jewish prayer language.
     
  16. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    i agree with this as an outline or example, rather than just a simple prayer to repeat over & over because we cant come up with one on our own.

    not sure how it ever got titled Lords Prayer, but it still is beautiful whan said or sung.
     
  17. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Yeah, this is how, not what we should pray. And agree with the spiritual bread as well...love the contemplations on sevens...nice old thread.

    For some reason feel compelled to toss in the Sufi invocation

    Toward the One,
    the Perfection of Love, Harmony, and Beauty,
    the Only Being;
    United with All the Illuminated Souls,
    Who form the Embodiment of the Master,
    the Spirit of Guidance.
     
  18. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    May I ask you peoples what is spirtual bread? lol......

    Give us this day our bread.... Give us this day the means to go on..... To physically go on... Give us bread is to provide... Provider the bread winner.....
     
  19. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Jesus at the well says he doesn't need water for if she were to have his water she'd never have to drink again...

    Spritual bread, food for the soul, manna from heaven, ever had a time of prayer and meditation fill you up?

    The constant support from spirit.
     
  20. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Bread is a profound symbol in agricultural worship, often along with wine - both of which are products created by humanity, from the ever changing cycles of nature.
     

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