Mindless violence

S

Snoopy

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,405
Reaction score
177
Points
63
BBC NEWS | England | Merseyside | Youths remanded over man's death

Another law abiding citizen is murdered by drunken youths, who were vandalising his car outside his home, after he went to confront them.

It seems if you intervene you can end up in jail yourself, injured, or dead.

The victim has become potentially criminalised.

Why is this happening?

What changes are needed?

S.
 
I think it's happening because kids aren't being brought up properly and because so few people ever do stand up to them, that when someone does they literally expect to get away with murder.

It's a lot more complicated than that really, but I need to go put the dinner on :p
 
Impqueen said:
I think it's happening because kids aren't being brought up properly and because so few people ever do stand up to them, that when someone does they literally expect to get away with murder.

It's a lot more complicated than that really, but I need to go put the dinner on :p
Click to expand...
more complicated than improper parenting?? I really don't think so. But the reasons for improper parenting may be more complicated...
 
I suppose good parenting is the ideal but I would agree with the statement of the Chief of Police in the region where this poor man has been murdered. He has called for alcohol to be made more expensive, raising the age for buying it to 21, restricting its availability and supermarkets to take more responsibility for selling. As well as better parenting; he said that often the alcohol is provided by parents. Do parents know or care where their children are at night?

What the government was ever thinking when it relaxed the licensing hours I can’t imagine; Continental café culture in the UK? …young people across the land sitting in plazas, sipping a glass of wine and a bite to eat. Yeah right. Cow-towing to the brewing industry more like. Still, the politicians probably don’t have to live in the areas all across the UK where this nightly yobbish behaviour takes place.

Perhaps there also needs to be more places for young people to go and do interesting stuff in the evenings but I get the impression they like getting drunk and being moronic. Like they enjoyed going through their school years devoutly avoiding learning anything, behaving properly or showing respect to others. Maybe that’s where the parents come in. But then good children from good parents get to go out and get bullied and injured…and worse…

s.
 
While I feel parenting is huge...I must back off a bit. There are many other factors which lead to kids going astray.

I'm reading a lot lately about the fact that they see no future. Heck what future did kids see 200 years ago...years of indentured servitude?

Too much free time and nothing to do with it....too much using the Rich famous and worthless as role models...


http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/names-of-people-i-do-7735.html
 
What needs to be changed? The whole attitude and look at youths.. We need to go back to the old days... Where a cop could kick two ton of crap outta ya... Where a teacher could make your ass glow red... :) We are slack and have lost that grip because of the pansy hippy "oh you can't hit the child" bs.

They get away with too much **** and there are no consequences great enough that will get through their heads, for their actions ;\

Stand in line, in your place, or be put in your place.... I find that always works :) But then again that is the military speaking but hey... It WORKS
 
snoopy,

in my opinion this is happenning due to several important factors...

the most important of which is idiocy...

if a gang of kids are outside ur house messing with ur car u phone the police... going out and confronting ppl is a waste of time, and might see u worse off than u were before... why would u be foolish enough to confront a large group of drunken teens alone with no weapon? yes, if a woman is being mugged, or a small child is in trouble, fine, try to intervene, but for the sake of ur car?

yes, I feel sorry that he is dead, but well... he did chase them... what did he expect? catch up with them, they apologise, we all live happily ever after? I'm not suggesting we all bow down to thugs, but, I do expect ppl to be rational...

it is not one mans responsibility to wage war on teen thugs... that's why we have police...yes, in the old days, a man would come out, and shout at u, and the kids would run away, but times change... now the kids don't run away- they have no fear of punishment, as there is no punishment...

and yet- the man still lived in a world where u could shout at the kids and they would go away... unfortunately for him the kids didnt...

social etiquette is different now to how it was in the 1950's... yes, back then we all knew our place, and knew the rules, but today there is no place, and no real rules... the criminal justice system is at breaking point, so even when arrested the likelihood of going to jail is so slim it is no longer a deterrent, and even when jailed this does not modify the behaviour of the criminally idiotic, so is pointless...

to me, the problem is...

we teach kids that being famous and/or rich is the height of heights, and while doing this we "reward" those who transgress the rules by being violent and drinking and taking drugs by making them more famous, by giving them more media coverage...

we teach kids that no matter how bad they become, we'll forgive them if they give us a good enough story, or they make an attempt at rehabilitation, or if they're famous, or rich, and we teach them that an individual can do what they like, when they like, and we don't teach ppl to have respect for each other...

my grandmother, during the war, used to take her children out shoplifting... she would dress up in a shop girl outfit, and then keep the kids outside, where she would bring out bags of shoes, and clothes...and they all went to mass on sunday...

my dad eventually progressed onto armed robbery... and yet- no matter how naughty he was, he still had ethics... if u were a burglar, u did not burgle ppl in ur own street, u did not burgle pensioners, if u were a violent type, then u did not hit kids, or women, if a thief u didnt steal from the church or the poor...

i too was a naughty kid- oppositionally defiant, no fear of punishment, or adults, a delinquent, and yes, I learnt that delinquency at my daddy's knee, but he also taught me the rights and wrongs of life, too... he did not want that kind of life for us- he wanted us to get educated, do good things, he didn't want me to take up the gun and be like him... the first time I got into trouble with the police he was so angry... and yet, no matter how much of a delinquent I was, I would never have beaten a man to death, unless he was trying to do the same to me...

what needs to change is... what we teach ppl about decency and respect, stop access to alcohol for these kids, and keep them away from drugs, all of which makes the situation much worse, but what is the point in that when we allow ppl like Pete Doherty and Amy Winehouse to be smackheads..?

the changes we need to make in society wont happen because as a society we're too far gone...

there's plenty of rules we could use- curfews for the under 18's, more drunk and disordely arrests, more public order offence related arrests, but if there are no jails to put them in we cant send them to jail... so, what happens? they get fined, a suspended sentence, we give them some silly ASBO, or a tag, and then they show off to their mates...

it solves nothing... personally, I'd like to see the return of capital punishment... I would like to live in a society were as adults we can do as we please, except hurt others... these kinds of people wont change, even if we torture them, so no point even attempting to rehabilitate them... I would like to see a three strikes and ur out system in place, so that violent repeat offenders are simply removed permanently from society, but that won't happen, not in our lovely liberal world...

yes, it's my answer to most things- bring back hanging... or at least, bring in the lethal injection trolley, but I can't see any other way...
 
Francis king said:
if a gang of kids are outside ur house messing with ur car u phone the police... going out and confronting ppl is a waste of time, and might see u worse off than u were before...
Click to expand...

Worse off? lol.... Not when you yourself are carrying a weapon and have three very big staffordshire bull terriers dragging there way to the scene. :) Nothing kicks off in my area, If it did I would be out there no hesitation sorting **** out... Be it my property or a nearby neighbours... I hate kids lol and dI hate a lack of respect for others territory and property..... And the best thing is, I was worse than most of these kids these days lol but I blank that and forget it and just ugh.. I am a very old grumpy man in a -youngish- body.

Francis king said:
yes, it's my answer to most things- bring back hanging... or at least, bring in the lethal injection trolley, but I can't see any other way...
Click to expand...

Death? No... A right good ****** slapping? Yes. :) I'd hospitalise someone... But never kill them...
 
I am spending 3 days looking after my friends 2 daughters, while she is away. The girls are 12 and 15.

Yesterday they were telling me how disgusting it is that their friend was arrested for being in a gang that threw a brick through someones window.

A couple of things really worried me about this conversation:

1. They saw it as totally unjust that their friend should be arrested or punished for this.
2. They could not see that simply being in the gang, even if you are not the one that throws the brick, is wrong.
3. They found it hillariously funny when they were telling me about this 'game'.
4. When I told their Mum on the phone she said "well we used to knock on peoples doors and run away". She could not see the difference between this and throwing bricks through windows - which explains the attitude of the children.

So it seems that what we did to be naughty as children (knocking on doors and running away) has now developed into throwing bricks, as an 'acceptable' pasttime. Makes you wonder what the girls will be teaching their children and letting them away with?
 
That will change... When a brick gets put through their window... It's not quite a game when you are on the other side.... An -attack- on you in your very own home... If you cannot be safe in your own household where the hell can you be?

Makes you wonder who the person was, and how terrified they truly were... It is these poor people, the victims that should go to schools and tell people how scary it is for them to be intimdated by children... The effects and such... To see that person as a PERSON in a conversation, surley that HAS to alter a childs mind... Surley? It's a freaking child lol...
 
I have this discussion often with classrooms of kids or adults...

Who raises their hands to get in trouble??

"Me, Me, I'd like to get in trouble over here"


Does anyone do that? Do you know anyone who does that? No you don't know anyone?

Typically the motorist is pissed when he was pulled over for speeding, and the student is mad at the teacher when he has to stay after school for detention.

But the truth is. That the motorist knew the speed limit and CHOSE to ignore it. The student knew the rules and CHOSE to disobey.

Both of them, all of us, anytime we know the rule and the consequence and CHOOSE act otherwise are virtually raising our hands and saying "Pick me, I'm the one you should pick to punish, as I know the rule and I am breaking it" It does not matter if everyone else is speeding or everyone else is shooting spitballs, or everyone else is throwing bricks....the fact is you knew better.

We have the RIGHT to choose. We can choose our choices, but we cannot choose the consequences of our choices.

The reality is that everyone is not speeding, and everyone was not shooting spitballs and everyone was not throwing bricks....the group you were running with was speeding, the group you were playing with was shooting spitballs, the gang you were out with was throwing bricks....the MAJORITY of the world, the country, the community...were not breaking the rules with you.

Personal responsibility is an awakening...MW you have a great opportunity for discussion....don't let your disgust get in the way...enjoy it...shine your light on the situation!
 
wil said:
Personal responsibility is an awakening...MW you have a great opportunity for discussion....don't let your disgust get in the way...enjoy it...shine your light on the situation!
Click to expand...

I now have a huge bruise on my forehead from trying to bang my head against that particular brick wall. However their mother is due back this evening and she is going to get the nagging of her life.
 
people need to take responsibility for their own actions. I have said this a lot lately, I think. Firstly , we have the attitude that if we dont do something, confront the offender etc, we are cowards. Secondly we have the problem that if we do something that the situation might get worse. I honestly think we dont know how we would react until we are in this situation. We would all like to think we could do something about it. But it doesnt always work out that way. Ive beenin a few situations where I helped out someone who was being threatened. Thankfully the offender didnt call my bluff. lol. (relief). I couldnt fight my way out of a wet paper bag. But, just being told that I knew who they were, and they were not scaring anyone, helped settle the situation down. The man in your story sadly died, but who is to say that this wasnt his time. What I mean is, sad for his family but maybe something good will come out of it. After all, I'm all the way on the other side of the world and I didnt hear about it until I read this thread. But you can be sure it will be discussed at my work and with my family and friends.


ps i think we should be able to give them a kick up the arse when they start mucking up.

love the grey
 
I don't think raising the alcohol age limit will help, after all a lot of the kids out there being drunken yobs are below the current age limit. Raising the limit to 21 won't stop them getting hold of it. Besides it comes back to responsible parenting - my parent introduced me to alcohol in small quantities from the age of 13 or so (in the home, obviously) - a sherry glass of wine with Sunday dinner. Later I got a whole wine glass. Because I've been taught about alcohol I can drink it sensibly (occasionally I decide not to be sensible ... about once a year). These kids don't have a positive example to follow - if their parents can't drink without getting utterly wasted, what are they going to do? All they know is that drink is for getting drunk. They don't realise drinking a glass or two of nice wine, or quality ale, can be pleasant without the vomiting and the hangover next morning.

more complicated than improper parenting?? I really don't think so. But the reasons for improper parenting may be more complicated...
Click to expand...
You hit on exactly what I meant Wil ;) Improper parenting... no extended family to help, the general disapproval of punishment (the feeling that if you have to punish the child you've failed), the elevation of childhood to some special untouchable status, the me-me-me culture, the proliferation of computer/tv entertainment at the cost of imagination, the use by advertisers of pester power.... *sigh* The world is going down the drain. But people have been saying that since Anglo-Saxon times.... :p
 
Impqueen said:
the elevation of childhood to some special untouchable status,
Click to expand...

I think that is very true Impqueen. I was commenting on this yesterday at dinner. My parents own a horse farm, so I know quite a lot about their behaviour. It is a known fact that a foal that is hand reared by man is more aggresive in later years than a foal reared by it's mother. Why? Because it isn't taught it's place in the herd. A mother will bite and kick it's foal, to teach it their place but a human rearer will not have these behaviour skills.

Look at many groups of animal that live in herds or packs, the young are kept in their place, not just by the parent but by the whole group. We, as humans, seem to have moved away from this behaviour in order to see ourselves as civilised. We are making a rod for our backs in my opinion and depriving our children of much needed social skills.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top