Are we worshiping the same God ?
- Thread starter Vrindavan
- Start date
I think, given the nature of Christianity and of its sacred texts, that it's rooted in both Judaism and hellenic religion.
Given the content of Jewish texts, it could be suggested that it came about as a syncretism of two religions, one agrarian and one nomadic, and was later shaped by other internal and external influences.
I can't say I believe they are the same, or that I don't believe, but it seems pragmatic to say that they are the same.
Given the content of Jewish texts, it could be suggested that it came about as a syncretism of two religions, one agrarian and one nomadic, and was later shaped by other internal and external influences.
I can't say I believe they are the same, or that I don't believe, but it seems pragmatic to say that they are the same.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
I, for one, do not believe that the God of Christianity is the same as the God of Hinduism for one very important reason: The Resurrection.
The Christian scriptures (the New Testament) are pretty explicit on the idea that we have only one life:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
When Christ died and rose again, He wasn't reincarnated in some other form, but resurrected in His own body. So is the hope of those who put their trust in Christ is that we too will be resurrected in our bodies one day, but that these bodies will be glorified and not see corruption (i.e. sickness, pain, or death).
There are certain Christian circles who allow the possibility of reincarnation, but it is not an orthodox view.
As far as being the same God of Judaism, Christianity is rooted in that religion. We believe in the God of the Old Testament and is the same as the God of the New Testament. Of course, the discrepancy between the two religions is how we view the person of Jesus Christ. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is essential for salvation. However, the Jews would catagorize us under the noahidic laws and that we have a part of the kingdom of God.
I myself take a slightly middle ground. I regard the Jews as God's chosen people and do not discount the possibility of salvation for them, even though they do not regard Jesus in their belief system ( I can even back it up with NT scripture). I have respect in the fact that God has made an everlasting covenant with Israel reaching all the way back to Abraham. So who am I to make any judgements? I don't know how it will all work out in the end, but I believe God will somehow work it and show His Glory to all and it will make sense.
In short, in my view, we are worshipping the same God.
The Christian scriptures (the New Testament) are pretty explicit on the idea that we have only one life:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
When Christ died and rose again, He wasn't reincarnated in some other form, but resurrected in His own body. So is the hope of those who put their trust in Christ is that we too will be resurrected in our bodies one day, but that these bodies will be glorified and not see corruption (i.e. sickness, pain, or death).
There are certain Christian circles who allow the possibility of reincarnation, but it is not an orthodox view.
As far as being the same God of Judaism, Christianity is rooted in that religion. We believe in the God of the Old Testament and is the same as the God of the New Testament. Of course, the discrepancy between the two religions is how we view the person of Jesus Christ. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is essential for salvation. However, the Jews would catagorize us under the noahidic laws and that we have a part of the kingdom of God.
I myself take a slightly middle ground. I regard the Jews as God's chosen people and do not discount the possibility of salvation for them, even though they do not regard Jesus in their belief system ( I can even back it up with NT scripture). I have respect in the fact that God has made an everlasting covenant with Israel reaching all the way back to Abraham. So who am I to make any judgements? I don't know how it will all work out in the end, but I believe God will somehow work it and show His Glory to all and it will make sense.
In short, in my view, we are worshipping the same God.
Bruce Michael
Well-Known Member
Greetings Vrindavan,
>Do you think Christianity is rooted from Judaism ?
No it is not. The Jews were the "chosen people"- chosen to be the ones who prepared a vehicle for the Christ.
>How is Judaism came out ?
You can actually find correspondences between the Greek myths and the Hebrew tales.
>Do you believe the God of Christianity is the same as the God of Judaism >or the God of Hinduism ?
The Christian God, Father God, is one and the same as Brahma and Parabraham.
Jehovah appears to me, to be the same as Allah.
Christ is Vishvakarman.
-Br.Bruce
>Do you think Christianity is rooted from Judaism ?
No it is not. The Jews were the "chosen people"- chosen to be the ones who prepared a vehicle for the Christ.
>How is Judaism came out ?
You can actually find correspondences between the Greek myths and the Hebrew tales.
>Do you believe the God of Christianity is the same as the God of Judaism >or the God of Hinduism ?
The Christian God, Father God, is one and the same as Brahma and Parabraham.
Jehovah appears to me, to be the same as Allah.
Christ is Vishvakarman.
-Br.Bruce
Bruce Michael
Well-Known Member
Hello Dondi,
>The Christian scriptures (the New Testament) are pretty explicit on the >idea that we have only one life:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
That is no lay down misere.
And why would that have a bearing on whether or not Brahma is the same as our Father God?
Blessings,
Br.Bruce
>The Christian scriptures (the New Testament) are pretty explicit on the >idea that we have only one life:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
That is no lay down misere.
And why would that have a bearing on whether or not Brahma is the same as our Father God?
Blessings,
Br.Bruce
Dondi
Well-Known Member
We die once, hence we are not reincarnated, lest we die again. Does not Hinduism teach reincarnation? If so, then Brahma's's judgement would be different than the Christian God, which teaches a final judgment from one life, would it not?
Bruce Michael
Well-Known Member
First of all we are assuming that God has a teaching on the subject. The anonymous author of Hebrews statement is open to interpretation.
If we look about us, on Earth we see birth, death and rebirth as a regular occurrence. Also it is happening out in the universe. To say that reincarnation never happens puts limits on God. Why is reincarnation offensive to God? He is the Great Recycler.
From "Christianity and Reincarnation" by Rudolf Frieling:
[Note: In the following chapters Frieling discusses in depth the reality of the Last Judgement and its treatment in the New Testament. Just as this Christian view of reincarnation differs with the oriental one in that it acknowledges the divinity of Christ and the central and world changing significance of his incarnation, death and resurrection, so it also takes seriously the idea of the Last Judgement -- an idea that even many modern Christians deny or at least would rather not think about."]
-Br.Bruce
arthra
Baha'i
We are worshipping the same God....
Well in my view... We are worshipping the same God... but with different cultural glosses perhaps... yes one can always focus on differences which have grown up over the millenia and historical issues.
In Hinduism you do have I think monotheism and this was a focus of at least one movementt called the Brahmo Samaj ohhh in the nineteenth century...See the excellent article in the wikipedia:
Brahmo Samaj - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There is also monotheism in Judaism, Christianity and of course in Islam..
Baha'is see the Oneness of God manifested in the various religions atleast in origin...what transpired after philosophers and theologians got a hold of it and some that exploited religion for their own purposes we could also probably discuss ... but it would require a long time I think to catalog...
- Art
Well in my view... We are worshipping the same God... but with different cultural glosses perhaps... yes one can always focus on differences which have grown up over the millenia and historical issues.
In Hinduism you do have I think monotheism and this was a focus of at least one movementt called the Brahmo Samaj ohhh in the nineteenth century...See the excellent article in the wikipedia:
Brahmo Samaj - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There is also monotheism in Judaism, Christianity and of course in Islam..
Baha'is see the Oneness of God manifested in the various religions atleast in origin...what transpired after philosophers and theologians got a hold of it and some that exploited religion for their own purposes we could also probably discuss ... but it would require a long time I think to catalog...
- Art
If one believes in Monotheism how could one believe anyone worships different a different G!d than the only one?
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
precisely, wil. G!D has many Hats, Glasses and Fake Beards and Noses, as it were. or, as i often point out, just because my mum's my mum, it doesn't preclude her from being someone's grandmother, sister, friend, daughter or wife. it's about the relationship.
i'd also say that this "syncretism" that dauer speaks of could simply be a matter of different perspectives developed to speak to different groups within the same people or, indeed, at different times. agrarian or nomadic language was less appropriate for the urban dwellers of the later periods, so, as we say, "Torah speaks in the language of humans" - i.e. that which humans can relate to. same with the Names.
oh - and there's also a jewish concept of reincarnation based on a theological version of what looks like the theory of conservation of energy to me, although i'm no scientist, the gilgulei nefashot or "transmigration of souls" - this, of course, does not posit the soul as an indivisible, integral unit, but as a composite entity of multiple levels - in the same way that our bodies are made of recycled bits of food, parental DNA and the other things that we consume.
b'shalom
bananabrain
i'd also say that this "syncretism" that dauer speaks of could simply be a matter of different perspectives developed to speak to different groups within the same people or, indeed, at different times. agrarian or nomadic language was less appropriate for the urban dwellers of the later periods, so, as we say, "Torah speaks in the language of humans" - i.e. that which humans can relate to. same with the Names.
oh - and there's also a jewish concept of reincarnation based on a theological version of what looks like the theory of conservation of energy to me, although i'm no scientist, the gilgulei nefashot or "transmigration of souls" - this, of course, does not posit the soul as an indivisible, integral unit, but as a composite entity of multiple levels - in the same way that our bodies are made of recycled bits of food, parental DNA and the other things that we consume.
b'shalom
bananabrain
- Messages
- 12,605
- Reaction score
- 2,759
- Points
- 108
hi Vrindavan, welcome to CR.
I would say that man has always and everywhere strived to comprehend the Divine, and in various times, ways and places the Divine has sought to reveal Himself to man, so in that sense all authentic religion comes from the same source. However ...
With regard to Judaism — the evidence is in Scripture, and the belief that the 'New Testamant' is 'new' because it is based on a 'new' covenant that was given in reference to the 'old' covenant in Moses.
With regard to Hinduism, a much more involved issue ... the metaphysics of the two systems are significantly different in the important principles. I would say Hinduism is a cosmological religion. Judaism, born of Revelation of the Divine, transcends the cosmological perspective, and Christianity does likewise.
Furthermore I would say that there is an assumption that all religions are equal, and therefore say the same thing. Nowhere is this testified to in any of the world's sacred texts. There is hierarchy in religion, as there is in all things.
The egalitarian notion of the equality of religions is an invention of modernism, and born of the philosophy of relativism, a philosophy which all authentic religions reject.
Thomas
Yes. To a greater or lesser degree.
Yes. Jesus Christ, His apostles and His Church seem to think so ... the Gospels are explicit on the point that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the prophecies made to Israel ... Christ's enemies constantly tried to catch Him out on points of Law, and failed, but in the end He was crucified for blasphemy against the God of Israel ... so His entire message and mission is framed in a Judaic context ... He was not proclaiming His Father or God as other than the God of the Jews.
Revelation.
I would say that man has always and everywhere strived to comprehend the Divine, and in various times, ways and places the Divine has sought to reveal Himself to man, so in that sense all authentic religion comes from the same source. However ...
With regard to Judaism — the evidence is in Scripture, and the belief that the 'New Testamant' is 'new' because it is based on a 'new' covenant that was given in reference to the 'old' covenant in Moses.
With regard to Hinduism, a much more involved issue ... the metaphysics of the two systems are significantly different in the important principles. I would say Hinduism is a cosmological religion. Judaism, born of Revelation of the Divine, transcends the cosmological perspective, and Christianity does likewise.
Furthermore I would say that there is an assumption that all religions are equal, and therefore say the same thing. Nowhere is this testified to in any of the world's sacred texts. There is hierarchy in religion, as there is in all things.
The egalitarian notion of the equality of religions is an invention of modernism, and born of the philosophy of relativism, a philosophy which all authentic religions reject.
Thomas
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Thomas said:
Yet "authentic religions" reject the notion that other "authentic religions" are true. So how can we reconcile this with what really IS true?
Yes, if one believes that G!d is all powerful and talks to all of his creations, and that those who heard the word interpreted it differently based on their knowledge and societal notions, this may be called a modernistic view...or it may just be that since we have become globally smaller it is an inherent evolutionary thing just like us starting to understand each others ways and not determining we have to be at war with all our neighbors that think a little differently than we.
However with the predominance of so many different religions and sects and denominations within those religions if you truly believe only one to be right...you got less than a 1% chance that it is yours
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
ahem. there is equality and equality. not all religions are equal. however, the notion of there being *value* in other religions is certainly pre-modern, one might even say pagan. as we would say, it's about how you act, not what you believe - "idolatry is not a matter of statues" (r. meiri, C12th) and "the righteous amongst the nations will inherit the World to Come" (mishnah, C2nd-C4th) - note the emphasis, it is not the nation that is a good thing, but the righteousness.Thomas said:
b'shalom
bananabrain
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Yes, I think all religions are efforts to acknowledge and worship the same God ... as others have said. And everything else is essentially footnotes.
You all are getting closer to answering the question about why people kill in the name of God, however.
Nasti Paro Dharma [There is no religion higher than Truth] - and eventually, one man gets tired of hearing what another man has to say about the Divine, thus he draws his sword and ends the discussion.
This happens where guns and bombs are used nowadays instead of swords. And it happens on discussion forums, where men (and women) show their lesser selves - or purely personal egos - and demonstrate that they know no more about God than a hole in the ground.
It is elitism, pure and simple, and the pot loves to call the kettle black. Whether a war of words, or the war of blood & violence, it is still a `holy war,' although there is really nothing Holy about it whatsoever!
One sure sign that we are on the wrong track, is to presumptuously and dogmatically proclaim - that there is no Progressive Revelation ... or that it supposedly ended at some point in the past. I especially love the absurd idea that Revelation ended, generally speaking, with "my religion" - whichever religion that tends to be.
Yes, there are lesser revelations, some of them originating with lesser aspects, presentations, or Representatives of the "same God." But those who are obsessed with the game of declaring, "My religion is greater than your religion," these are the elitists, who have missed the point entirely ... and who love to try and turn their elitism around. Hypocrites!!!
Practice your own religion, if it is so special to you. Do as YOUR God has commanded of you - lovingly, I hope, else what kind of `god' are you worshipping at all!?!
But do not sit in judgment of another man's God, and tell him that his religion does not measure up to your own.
Hurry not to stamp out the cult of TRUTH ... under whatever inconvenient presentation you happen to find it. Seek to build up, instead, your own cult of Love, of Forgiveness, of Peace and of Understanding, and SEE how in time, these many tributaries widen, and empty into the same, Great Ocean!
It may be that only a Christ or a Buddha, or a handful of the Greatest of Humanity's Teachers, yet stand across the ocean on the farthest shore, awaiting our arrival. But they left footprints, and indications to guide the way. No person who looks in earnest will fail to find Them ...
You all are getting closer to answering the question about why people kill in the name of God, however.
Nasti Paro Dharma [There is no religion higher than Truth] - and eventually, one man gets tired of hearing what another man has to say about the Divine, thus he draws his sword and ends the discussion.
This happens where guns and bombs are used nowadays instead of swords. And it happens on discussion forums, where men (and women) show their lesser selves - or purely personal egos - and demonstrate that they know no more about God than a hole in the ground.
It is elitism, pure and simple, and the pot loves to call the kettle black. Whether a war of words, or the war of blood & violence, it is still a `holy war,' although there is really nothing Holy about it whatsoever!
One sure sign that we are on the wrong track, is to presumptuously and dogmatically proclaim - that there is no Progressive Revelation ... or that it supposedly ended at some point in the past. I especially love the absurd idea that Revelation ended, generally speaking, with "my religion" - whichever religion that tends to be.
Yes, there are lesser revelations, some of them originating with lesser aspects, presentations, or Representatives of the "same God." But those who are obsessed with the game of declaring, "My religion is greater than your religion," these are the elitists, who have missed the point entirely ... and who love to try and turn their elitism around. Hypocrites!!!
Practice your own religion, if it is so special to you. Do as YOUR God has commanded of you - lovingly, I hope, else what kind of `god' are you worshipping at all!?!
But do not sit in judgment of another man's God, and tell him that his religion does not measure up to your own.
Hurry not to stamp out the cult of TRUTH ... under whatever inconvenient presentation you happen to find it. Seek to build up, instead, your own cult of Love, of Forgiveness, of Peace and of Understanding, and SEE how in time, these many tributaries widen, and empty into the same, Great Ocean!
It may be that only a Christ or a Buddha, or a handful of the Greatest of Humanity's Teachers, yet stand across the ocean on the farthest shore, awaiting our arrival. But they left footprints, and indications to guide the way. No person who looks in earnest will fail to find Them ...
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
- Messages
- 12,605
- Reaction score
- 2,759
- Points
- 108
Hi all —
Even if one does, the point is to pick one, and give it your best shot surely?
One will never know unless one 'goes for it' as the saying goes. Sitting on the fence is not an option. It's the good heart that inherits heaven, not the feint-hearted.
Agreed, this is what Catholicism believes. This is why Catholicism believes that those who never 'heard the word' are not excluded from heaven — right from the beginning the Church Fathers considered Platonism as the handmaid of Christianity, and later Aristotelianism was likewise 'baptised'.
What is not allows, it seems, is going backwards ...
matthew 12:31 "Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven."
Thomas
I'm speaking from a Roman Catholic perspective, and we do not reject the notion of the religious impulse in man, in fact in the Catechism man is described foremost as a religious being. We acknowledge the religious impulse visible in other traditions, as we also acknowledge them as shades and presentments of the Incarnation.
Indeed it is, born of a philosophy of relativism ... but it is not the Catholic philosophical viewpoint.
If you put all on an equal footing. I do not.However with the predominance of so many different religions and sects and denominations within those religions if you truly believe only one to be right...you got less than a 1% chance that it is yours
Even if one does, the point is to pick one, and give it your best shot surely?
One will never know unless one 'goes for it' as the saying goes. Sitting on the fence is not an option. It's the good heart that inherits heaven, not the feint-hearted.
Agreed, this is what Catholicism believes. This is why Catholicism believes that those who never 'heard the word' are not excluded from heaven — right from the beginning the Church Fathers considered Platonism as the handmaid of Christianity, and later Aristotelianism was likewise 'baptised'.
What is not allows, it seems, is going backwards ...
matthew 12:31 "Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven."
Thomas
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
On Christianity, or Roman Catholicism, relative to this discussion (and relative to any other religion), I think Simon & Garfunkel said it best:
God doesn't care which religion I belong to, or even if I am religious at all! What matters most is what I do with what I know (or believe), and what I learn along the way ... including how I treat other people. This is not a race to the finish line, and the greatest reward may not go to the one(s) who finish first!
Namaskar,
Andrew
And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson,
Jesus loves you more than you will know.
God bless you, please Mrs. Robinson.
Heaven holds a place for those who pray,
Hey, hey, hey
We can replace the names, the specific terminologies, and speak of nuances till we turn blue in the face ... but I think we make a major step forward (speaking of direction) when we each recognize:Jesus loves you more than you will know.
God bless you, please Mrs. Robinson.
Heaven holds a place for those who pray,
Hey, hey, hey
God doesn't care which religion I belong to, or even if I am religious at all! What matters most is what I do with what I know (or believe), and what I learn along the way ... including how I treat other people. This is not a race to the finish line, and the greatest reward may not go to the one(s) who finish first!
Namaskar,
Andrew
- Messages
- 12,605
- Reaction score
- 2,759
- Points
- 108
Hi Andrew —
I suppose that depends on where one positions one's deity and one's religion — cosmologically I think you're probably right, but then cosmological religions have an a priori limitation or ceiling, and do not necessarily require a dialogue with the Divine at all, there being a cascade of veils and symbols from high cosmology to simple humanism ...
If one is speaking metacosmically, then of course it matters absolutely. At the heart of Revelation is the Word, and the Word presupposes one who speaks, and one who listens. It also, in a strictly Christian sense, implies an unmediated dialogue between creature and Creator ... So 'no religion' in this sense would imply a disposition that precludes the reception of the Word, and the natural and obvious consequence ... One might well be 'a good person', as many are, including athiests and agnostics, but that is not the issue here.
God is everywhere, but rarely makes His presence known where He is not welcome.
Christianity is not just about being good, in fact Christianity is not about the cosmological aspects of being at all — only in the sense that man finds himself in the cosmos, and that certain conditions therefore must be met if he is not to be a hypocrite — Christianity is about a dialogue with the Divine at the most profound level of being, as Eckhart and others exemplify, which transcends the cosmos, and ultimately will transform it.
Thomas
I suppose that depends on where one positions one's deity and one's religion — cosmologically I think you're probably right, but then cosmological religions have an a priori limitation or ceiling, and do not necessarily require a dialogue with the Divine at all, there being a cascade of veils and symbols from high cosmology to simple humanism ...
If one is speaking metacosmically, then of course it matters absolutely. At the heart of Revelation is the Word, and the Word presupposes one who speaks, and one who listens. It also, in a strictly Christian sense, implies an unmediated dialogue between creature and Creator ... So 'no religion' in this sense would imply a disposition that precludes the reception of the Word, and the natural and obvious consequence ... One might well be 'a good person', as many are, including athiests and agnostics, but that is not the issue here.
God is everywhere, but rarely makes His presence known where He is not welcome.
Agreed, but in the context of what? It's not what we do, it's why we do it ... and any humanist would agree with that sentiment ... in fact I have had those very words said to me, whilst laughing at my 'naive' notion that there might be something other than empirical reality ...
Christianity is not just about being good, in fact Christianity is not about the cosmological aspects of being at all — only in the sense that man finds himself in the cosmos, and that certain conditions therefore must be met if he is not to be a hypocrite — Christianity is about a dialogue with the Divine at the most profound level of being, as Eckhart and others exemplify, which transcends the cosmos, and ultimately will transform it.
Thomas