taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
The difference, bananabrain, as I look into mine, is that I've learned a bit of the viveka needed to tell that HPB's claims were Gospel. As I say, I'm patiently waiting for you to catch up.
Clearly, it's gonna be awhile.
Clearly, it's gonna be awhile.
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
a while for me to realise HPB's claims were "gospel"? heh, you could be right there. i'll put them in the queue for my soul along with the evangelists, jihadis and richard dawkins. it's astonishing we jews are still around, isn't it, considering what rubbish we believe in....
b'shalom
bananabrain
b'shalom
bananabrain
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
There are holdouts of every ancient tradition ... as there is always resistance to change (and to progress - I do not equate the two, except in this case and with respect to your obstinacy) ...
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
yeah, everyone equates "change" to "progress" in our case, but we're still here and the most obvious reason for that is this: if you dropped back into roman times you'd have nothing in common with your own ancestors, but a great deal in common with mine. in fact almost any post-"enlightenment" person would find a 2000-year old jewish household far more "progressive" than a greek or roman one. i bet you say the same stuff about progress and change to hindus and buddhists when you're telling them what their religions are *really* about.
deary me.
b'shalom
bananabrain
deary me.
b'shalom
bananabrain
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
No, bananabrain, frankly, I've just discovered - since my time at CR - that you are just one of those people I really can't stand. It has nothing to do with Judaism, whatsoever. It's all about how you talk about it, and what you say about MY `religion' - or beliefs, worldview, etc.
Dauer, for instance, comes across to me as someone quite pleasant, and doesn't seem to have his head up his ... oh wait, was I going to say that!?
Besides, if you'd bother READING some of my posts elsewhere, you'd find that I do in fact happen to believe I was Palestinian ~2100 years ago, as well as Jewish in my most recent life. But then, when it comes to this understanding, I don't let the opinion of you experts get in the way and cloud my judgment. I simply go with the insights I've had for years. Gee, bananabrain, imagine that! INSIGHT!
And I happen to believe this insight is available to any of us, regardless of our chosen faith or religious tradition (if any), except for when we're too full of __ to really care, or hear, what others have to say. Hmmm ...
Nick the Pilot
Well-Known Member
~(='.'=)~
A conservative Christian says President Bush is wrong in believing Christians and Muslims pray to the same God.
From the Right: Bush is wrong about God
Imperial Valley Press Online :: Opinion
(Access to this article in this newspaper is password-protected, but this article can probably be found somewhere else online freely accessible, as the writer works for the Tribune.)
By Cal Thomas
Saturday, October 13, 2007 9:40 PM PDT
Whatever else his critics say of him, no one can fault President Bush for failing to go the extra mile in his efforts to show that neither he, nor the United States, is opposed to the Islamic faith, or to Muslim nations.
Last week, the president and Mrs. Bush hosted their seventh Iftaar Dinner, the celebration that breaks the Muslim fast during Ramadan. Immediately after 9/11, the president visited a Washington, D.C., mosque and proclaimed Islam a “religion of peace.” He has frequently said that terrorists are not real Muslims, anymore than people who proclaim to be Christian and engage in violence are genuine Christians.
The president is the most openly evangelical Christian and faithful churchgoer since Jimmy Carter. And the evangelical community has mostly embraced him and twice voted for him in overwhelming numbers. But that constituency is likely to be troubled over something the president said in an interview with Al Arabiya television. In an official transcript released by the White House, the president said, “...I believe in an almighty God, and I believe that all the world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other religion, prays to the same God.” Later in the interview, the president repeated his statement: “I believe there is a universal God. I believe the God that the Muslim prays to is the same God that I pray to. After all, we all came from Abraham. I believe in that universality.”
To paraphrase a remark often attributed to the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, everyone is entitled to his or her own faith, but everyone is not entitled to define the central doctrines of that faith. The doctrines of what is called Christianity not only stand in stark contrast to Islam, they also teach something contrary to what the president says he believes.
It is one thing to try to reach out to moderate and sincerely peaceful Muslims. It is quite another to say the claims of your own faith are of no greater importance than the often contradictory claims of another faith. If we all worship the same God, the president should answer the call of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Osama bin Laden, convert to Islam and no longer be a target of their wrath. What difference would it make if we all worship the same God?
Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (carm.org) has created a useful chart that shows the conflicting claims of classic Christian belief and Muslim doctrines. It is worth studying whatever one’s faith.
The central doctrine of the Christian faith is that God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for sinners and by repenting of sin and accepting Christ as Savior, one is “saved” and is guaranteed a home in Heaven. Muslims do not believe God had a son and, therefore, no atonement for sin is necessary. Muslims believe simply telling God one is sorry and repenting of sin is enough, if one also lives up to the five “pillars” of Islam. Furthermore, according to Muslims, Jesus did not die on a cross (as Christians believe); instead, God allowed Judas to look like Jesus and it was Judas who was crucified.
Evangelical Christians believe the Bible is God’s Word and is without error in the original manuscripts. Muslims respect the word of the prophets, but claim the Bible has been corrupted (mostly by Jews) and is only correct insofar as it agrees with the Koran.
God calls himself “I Am” and says He is one, but with three personalities. Muslims believe God’s name is Allah and reject the Trinity.
How can the president say that we all worship the same God when Muslims deny the divinity of Jesus, whom the president accepts as the One through whom all must pass for salvation? Do both political parties have the same beliefs? Are all baseball teams equal (clearly not, because only two will go to the World Series)?
The president can be commended for sincerely reaching out to Muslims, but he should not be commended for watering down his beliefs and the doctrines of his professed faith in order to do so. That’s universalism. There are “churches” that believe in universalism, his Methodist church does not. No Christian who believes the Bible believes in universalism. And No Muslim who believes the Koran does either.
President Bush is wrong — dangerously wrong — in proclaiming that all religions worship the same God.
>> Readers may e-mail Cal Thomas at tmseditors(at)tribune.com.
A conservative Christian says President Bush is wrong in believing Christians and Muslims pray to the same God.
From the Right: Bush is wrong about God
Imperial Valley Press Online :: Opinion
(Access to this article in this newspaper is password-protected, but this article can probably be found somewhere else online freely accessible, as the writer works for the Tribune.)
By Cal Thomas
Saturday, October 13, 2007 9:40 PM PDT
Whatever else his critics say of him, no one can fault President Bush for failing to go the extra mile in his efforts to show that neither he, nor the United States, is opposed to the Islamic faith, or to Muslim nations.
Last week, the president and Mrs. Bush hosted their seventh Iftaar Dinner, the celebration that breaks the Muslim fast during Ramadan. Immediately after 9/11, the president visited a Washington, D.C., mosque and proclaimed Islam a “religion of peace.” He has frequently said that terrorists are not real Muslims, anymore than people who proclaim to be Christian and engage in violence are genuine Christians.
The president is the most openly evangelical Christian and faithful churchgoer since Jimmy Carter. And the evangelical community has mostly embraced him and twice voted for him in overwhelming numbers. But that constituency is likely to be troubled over something the president said in an interview with Al Arabiya television. In an official transcript released by the White House, the president said, “...I believe in an almighty God, and I believe that all the world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other religion, prays to the same God.” Later in the interview, the president repeated his statement: “I believe there is a universal God. I believe the God that the Muslim prays to is the same God that I pray to. After all, we all came from Abraham. I believe in that universality.”
To paraphrase a remark often attributed to the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, everyone is entitled to his or her own faith, but everyone is not entitled to define the central doctrines of that faith. The doctrines of what is called Christianity not only stand in stark contrast to Islam, they also teach something contrary to what the president says he believes.
It is one thing to try to reach out to moderate and sincerely peaceful Muslims. It is quite another to say the claims of your own faith are of no greater importance than the often contradictory claims of another faith. If we all worship the same God, the president should answer the call of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Osama bin Laden, convert to Islam and no longer be a target of their wrath. What difference would it make if we all worship the same God?
Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (carm.org) has created a useful chart that shows the conflicting claims of classic Christian belief and Muslim doctrines. It is worth studying whatever one’s faith.
The central doctrine of the Christian faith is that God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for sinners and by repenting of sin and accepting Christ as Savior, one is “saved” and is guaranteed a home in Heaven. Muslims do not believe God had a son and, therefore, no atonement for sin is necessary. Muslims believe simply telling God one is sorry and repenting of sin is enough, if one also lives up to the five “pillars” of Islam. Furthermore, according to Muslims, Jesus did not die on a cross (as Christians believe); instead, God allowed Judas to look like Jesus and it was Judas who was crucified.
Evangelical Christians believe the Bible is God’s Word and is without error in the original manuscripts. Muslims respect the word of the prophets, but claim the Bible has been corrupted (mostly by Jews) and is only correct insofar as it agrees with the Koran.
God calls himself “I Am” and says He is one, but with three personalities. Muslims believe God’s name is Allah and reject the Trinity.
How can the president say that we all worship the same God when Muslims deny the divinity of Jesus, whom the president accepts as the One through whom all must pass for salvation? Do both political parties have the same beliefs? Are all baseball teams equal (clearly not, because only two will go to the World Series)?
The president can be commended for sincerely reaching out to Muslims, but he should not be commended for watering down his beliefs and the doctrines of his professed faith in order to do so. That’s universalism. There are “churches” that believe in universalism, his Methodist church does not. No Christian who believes the Bible believes in universalism. And No Muslim who believes the Koran does either.
President Bush is wrong — dangerously wrong — in proclaiming that all religions worship the same God.
>> Readers may e-mail Cal Thomas at tmseditors(at)tribune.com.
Re: ~(='.'=)~
Therein lies the problem. Lol
So yes we believe in a God, who is the Supreme Father of all beings, but no, those guys who also worship "God", but with a different name elsewhere on the planet. No they're just making stuff up, and they'll all go to hell aswell [I suppose?].
Common-sense would tell you that an all-fair God wouldn't go for this set-up. So either the conclusion is wrong, or God doesn't exist. Isn't this just a no-brainer?
God is one!
... Neemai
Therein lies the problem. Lol
So yes we believe in a God, who is the Supreme Father of all beings, but no, those guys who also worship "God", but with a different name elsewhere on the planet. No they're just making stuff up, and they'll all go to hell aswell [I suppose?].
Common-sense would tell you that an all-fair God wouldn't go for this set-up. So either the conclusion is wrong, or God doesn't exist. Isn't this just a no-brainer?
God is one!
... Neemai
Nick the Pilot
Well-Known Member
~~(^.^)~~
Neemai,
You and I are on the same page. And, when I read the part saying the idea (of the Christian and Muslim God is the same) is dangerous, I was shocked. Clearly, there is still room for us to make more progress.
Neemai,
You and I are on the same page. And, when I read the part saying the idea (of the Christian and Muslim God is the same) is dangerous, I was shocked. Clearly, there is still room for us to make more progress.
JosephM
Well-Known Member
Re: ~(='.'=)~
Not really Neemai,
Not really a no brainer... Your Either.... OR... is based on an assumption that God wouldn't go for this setup and perhaps therein lies the fallacy of your common sense logic.
Perhaps there are a lot of people making things up in a lot of religions but people seem to be doing the best they can with what they have been given? And Perhaps God knows this and winks......?
Love and Peace,
Jm
Therein lies the problem. Lol
So yes we believe in a God, who is the Supreme Father of all beings, but no, those guys who also worship "God", but with a different name elsewhere on the planet. No they're just making stuff up, and they'll all go to hell aswell [I suppose?].
Common-sense would tell you that an all-fair God wouldn't go for this set-up. So either the conclusion is wrong, or God doesn't exist. Isn't this just a no-brainer?
God is one!
... Neemai
Not really Neemai,
Not really a no brainer... Your Either.... OR... is based on an assumption that God wouldn't go for this setup and perhaps therein lies the fallacy of your common sense logic.
Perhaps there are a lot of people making things up in a lot of religions but people seem to be doing the best they can with what they have been given? And Perhaps God knows this and winks......?
Love and Peace,
Jm
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Re: ~(='.'=)~
So what, is God playing some sort of cosmic shell game and we are supposed to guess which one He really is?
It would be nice if God would peek through the clouds every once in a while and give us a clue.
On the other hand, maybe God is unknowable in any of our attempts to describe Him, so perhaps He'll give us a mulligan on that.
So what, is God playing some sort of cosmic shell game and we are supposed to guess which one He really is?
It would be nice if God would peek through the clouds every once in a while and give us a clue.
On the other hand, maybe God is unknowable in any of our attempts to describe Him, so perhaps He'll give us a mulligan on that.
JosephM
Well-Known Member
Re: ~(='.'=)~
Hi Dondi my brother,
No Game. Perhaps God is the source of ALL and it is our minds which tries to partition God. To me it seems God is knowable in that he IS ALL that is. There seems to me to not be a need to guess which one God is as none are able to adequately describe God in words.
Just a thought to consider,
Love and Peace,
JM
Hi Dondi my brother,
No Game. Perhaps God is the source of ALL and it is our minds which tries to partition God. To me it seems God is knowable in that he IS ALL that is. There seems to me to not be a need to guess which one God is as none are able to adequately describe God in words.
Just a thought to consider,
Love and Peace,
JM
I'm not sure what you're trying to say there exactly Joseph, and am thinking maybe what I said originally just wasn't all that well written?
The point I was trying to communicate above was that this theory of "Christians and Muslims are both worshipping different 'Supreme Gods', or that Allah is an incorrect name, compared to Jehovah (or vice versa)" sounds very illogical.
People largely worship God in whatever form of religion they are born with, or grow up in. So it would seem very unfair of God to refuse people's worship because they happended to be born in the 'wrong' country, or be waving the wrong flag? To me, these things are just externals, with the more important factor being the sincerity of one's devotion to the Lord.
I like your point that "none are able to adequately describe God in words". Are you of the opinion that ultimately God is above all sectarian notions of religion?
Best wishes,
... Neemai
The point I was trying to communicate above was that this theory of "Christians and Muslims are both worshipping different 'Supreme Gods', or that Allah is an incorrect name, compared to Jehovah (or vice versa)" sounds very illogical.
People largely worship God in whatever form of religion they are born with, or grow up in. So it would seem very unfair of God to refuse people's worship because they happended to be born in the 'wrong' country, or be waving the wrong flag? To me, these things are just externals, with the more important factor being the sincerity of one's devotion to the Lord.
I like your point that "none are able to adequately describe God in words". Are you of the opinion that ultimately God is above all sectarian notions of religion?
Best wishes,
... Neemai
JosephM
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what you're trying to say there exactly Joseph, and am thinking maybe what I said originally just wasn't all that well written?
The point I was trying to communicate above was that this theory of "Christians and Muslims are both worshipping different 'Supreme Gods', or that Allah is an incorrect name, compared to Jehovah (or vice versa)" sounds very illogical.
People largely worship God in whatever form of religion they are born with, or grow up in. So it would seem very unfair of God to refuse people's worship because they happended to be born in the 'wrong' country, or be waving the wrong flag? To me, these things are just externals, with the more important factor being the sincerity of one's devotion to the Lord.
I like your point that "none are able to adequately describe God in words". Are you of the opinion that ultimately God is above all sectarian notions of religion?
Best wishes,
... Neemai
My apologies..... It seems I did misunderstand your post and yes God is not any sectarian notion of religion. It seems to me only to be our futile attempt to define God in our own conditioned image.
Love and Peace,
JM
bob x
Well-Known Member
My imaginary friend can beat up your imaginary friend!
