There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

rodgertutt said:
They were not spiritually "wiped out."
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Oohhhhh... they were just drowned... and that only lasts a few minutes as opposed to all eternity, so that makes your God kind and compassionate.

Rodger, do you know this old joke...?

Man: Will you have sex with me for a million dollars?
Woman: Yes.

Man: Will you have sex with me for one dollar?
Woman: No! What kind of woman do you think I am?

Man: Well I know what kind of woman you are. Now I'm just negotiating the price.​


Likewise Rodger, we know what kind of God you worship. The difference between the God you worship and the one you distain is just a matter of degree.
 
citizenzen said:
Likewise Rodger, we know what kind of God you worship. The difference between the God you worship and the one you distain is just a matter of degree.
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The God I worship will evenually transform all evil and suffering into something better that it happened for EVERYONE.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

THE GOD I DON'T WORSHIP - NEVER ENDING ETERNAL SUFFERING FOR PART OF HIS CREATION

THE GOD I DO WORSHIP - THE EVENTUAL TRANSFORMATION OF ALL SUFFERING INTO SOMETHING BETTER THAT IT HAPPENED.
 
I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.
That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.
 
rodgertutt said:
The God I worship will evenually transform all evil and suffering into something better that it happened for EVERYONE.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

THE GOD I DON'T WORSHIP - NEVER ENDING ETERNAL SUFFERING FOR PART OF HIS CREATION

THE GOD I DO WORSHIP - THE EVENTUAL TRANSFORMATION OF ALL SUFFERING INTO SOMETHING BETTER THAT IT HAPPENED.
Click to expand...
Actually that is a very Buddhist aim--the ending of suffering. :)

Four Noble Truths
 
seattlegal said:
Actually that is a very Buddhist aim--the ending of suffering. :)
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True. The main difference is that in Buddhism human suffering is ended by people, facilitated through acts of their own free will (Eightfold Path) and not a state merely granted by one's God.
 
citizenzen said:
in Buddhism human suffering is ended by people, facilitated through acts of their own free will (Eightfold Path) and not a state merely granted by one's God.
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People have a "will" all right, but they don't have a "free" will.

Every choice we ever made was the ONLY choice we could have made at that split second in time because we were choosing on the basis of the reasons why we preferred that choice the MOST. A few seconds earlier, or a few second later we might have chosn differently due to reasons that were non-existent at the time when we actually did make the choice. But at the specific time that we did make the choice we could not have made any other choice.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

I believe that God is 100% responsible for all of the evil and suffering in the world.

But I also believe that He controls the interplay between good and evil
and will eventually transform the negative consequences of evil into good for everyone, so that everyone will understand that it was better that everything happened the way that it did.
That's the kind of God that I worship.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html
 
citizenzen said:
While in Rodger's world, Jesus will torture billions, it just wont be forever.
Jesus is really a very compassionate torturer. :rolleyes:
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I believe that no evil or suffering will occur that will not be, sooner or later, transformed by God into something better that it happened.
That is why it is justifiable.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

So why do you think suffering exists citizen?

It certainly is not because of "free" will.

No one has ever made a choice without a reason, even if that reason was only to choose randomly, e.g. flipping a coin.

The reason was the influence that CAUSED us to choose what we did choose.

At that particular split-second in time that was the ONLY choice we could have made based on the reason why we prefrred that choice the MOST.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
 
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rodgertutt said:
So why do you think suffering exists citizen?

It certainly is not because of "free" will.

No one has ever made a choice without a reason, even if that reason was only to choose randomly, e.g. flipping a coin.

The reason was the influence that CAUSED us to choose what we did choose.

At that particular split-second in time that was the ONLY choice we could have made based on the reason why we prefrred that choice the MOST.
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Why would you ask me a question only to tell me what my answer must be?

You certainly aren't interested in anything I might say on the issue.

So why waste my time answering?

I will remember, however, that anytime I hear of suffering... anytime a little girl is kidnapped, raped and murdered... anytime a child is neglected, beaten and starved... anytime cruelty is perpetrated against an innocent person, that according Rodger Tutt, your God intentionally caused it to occur.

I cannot imagine a God more repulsive than the one to which you pray.

You are the reason that I'm an atheist.
 
citizenzen said:
I cannot imagine a God more repulsive than the one to which you pray.
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Then I would say that you are imaginationally challenged. :)

How about a god who lets people suffer forever :eek: instead of changing all suffering into something better that it happened?

I'm kinda hoping that kind of God would be "more repulsive" to you.

It is infinitely more difficult for me to be atheistic when I am asked to believe that Creation, with all of its awesome intricacies supposedly just evolved out of substances that had no first cause, than it is to believe that an intelligent Creator (i.e. Jesus Christ) started it all. (1Corinthians 8:6 & Ephesians 3:9)

My problem has never been, “Is there a God?”

My problem has always been, “What is He like?”

I think one of the primary causes of atheism is Christianity’s doctrine of everlasting suffering for everyone who dies without becoming a Christian. I would rather live out my life as an agnostic, and try to treat everyone the same way that I would like to be treated by them, and hope for the best in the next life, than try to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.

That is why I am glad there is evidence that God is not like that, e.g.
The Law of Circularity: Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever? How Men Are Saved

That is why I'm glad there is evidence that God is going to transform all suffering into something better that it happened.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html
 
rodgertutt said:
I'm kinda hoping that kind of God would be "more repulsive" to you.
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You're right. That God is even more repulsive than your repulsive God.

Congratulations Tutt! You don't believe in the most odious deity out there!
 
citizenzen said:
You're right. That God is even more repulsive than your repulsive God.
Congratulations Tutt! You don't believe in the most odious deity out there!
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I'm not capable of perceiving God as "odious" Who has the intention, and the ability, to successfully transform all suffering into something better for everyone that it happened.

Considering the fact that suffering DOES exist, the strongest reason influencing my decision about Him is that it is not only just acceptable, but also desireable that God is like I hope He is.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html
 
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citizenzen said:
True. The main difference is that in Buddhism human suffering is ended by people, facilitated through acts of their own free will (Eightfold Path) and not a state merely granted by one's God.
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Many in Christianity believe the same thing. Folks have to realize no one corners the market on these beliefs.
rodgertutt said:
I believe that God is 100% responsible for all of the evil and suffering in the world.
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So 200,000,000 last century...dead and you believe this is all due to G!d? Downright scary the way you justify this.

citizenzen said:
I will remember, however, that anytime I hear of suffering... anytime a little girl is kidnapped, raped and murdered... anytime a child is neglected, beaten and starved... anytime cruelty is perpetrated against an innocent person, that according Rodger Tutt, your God intentionally caused it to occur.

I cannot imagine a God more repulsive than the one to which you pray.

You are the reason that I'm an atheist.
Click to expand...
If his belief was the primary or only belief in G!d, I'd be leading the parade to join ya.
 
wil said:
So 200,000,000 last century...dead and you believe this is all due to G!d? Downright scary the way you justify this.
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I perceive nothing "scary" about a God who is going to raise everyone from the dead and permanently get rid of all death, and sorrow, and crying, and pain, and transform all previous suffering into something better that it happened.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

Faced with the fact that suffering and death DOES exist, I can't imagine how anyone could improve on that perception of God.
 
rodgertutt said:
When you later "decided not to," that decision superceeded your first decision. The reason you changed your mind was the strongest influence that CAUSED your second decision.
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Ah, but you see, these decisions occured in essentially the same moment. Thus, there could not have been a change on the influences acting upon my mind. Thus, your assertion falls flat.
 
Marsh said:
Ah, but you see, these decisions occured in essentially the same moment. Thus, there could not have been a change on the influences acting upon my mind. Thus, your assertion falls flat.
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If they occured exactly "at the same moment" they would cancel each other out, and no decision would occur at all. If they did not occur at the same moment, then an influence (reason) did act on your mind if you changed it.

When you later "decided not to," that decision superceeded your first decision. The reason you changed your mind was the strongest influence that CAUSED your second decision.

Every choice we ever made was the only choice we could have made because we chose what we preferred the MOST at that particluar split second in time.

A few seconds before, or a few seconds afterwards, we may have chosen something else due to influences that were non-existent when we actually did make the choice.

No one has ever made a choice without a reason, even if that reason was only to choose randomly, e.g. flipping a coin.

The reason was the influence that CAUSED us to choose what we did choose.

At that particular split-second in time that was the ONLY choice we could have made based on the reason why we preferred that choice the MOST.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
 
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rodgertutt said:
Wait a minute citizen. You just said you don't believe in God.
what's up with that. :confused:
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Buddhists believe that wisdom and compassion are universal components. These components have been described as "formless fields of benefaction". It isn't hard for me to see how this can be interpreted as "God". But I am atheistic in seeing this as a personal God, one that created the universe, one that controls my life and judges my soul.

Why does suffering exist?

I have no idea. Buddhism directly addresses how to end suffering in one's life, but I don't presume to know ultimately why we are built with the capacity to suffer. But I do think that mankind is perfectly capable of cruelty we inflict upon each other. I don't need to invent a deity to explain it.
 
citizenzen said:
I do think that mankind is perfectly capable of cruelty we inflict upon each other. I don't need to invent a deity to explain it.
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I'm not "inventing" a deity either.
I'm guiding people to reasons why universalist Christians believe like they do, that eventually the afterlife will have no death, sorrow, crying, or pain, for anyone, and all suffering will be transformed into something better that it happened.

I don't know if anyone actually reads this link, but I keep repeating it because it is an excellent writing (from a universalist Christian point of view) on why I believe like I do.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html
 
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