There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Azure24, Jan 3, 2008.

  1. Azure24

    Azure24 New Member

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    'Free will' is a myth, God is reposible for everything and He brings about everything only at its precise "appointed seaon and time".

    Ecclesiastes 3

    A Time for Everything
    1 There is a time for everything,
    and a season for every activity under heaven


    Ecclesiastes 8:6 (New International Version)

    6 For there is a proper time and procedure for every matter,
    though a man's misery weighs heavily upon him.


    Ecclesiastes 3:17 (New International Version)

    17 I thought in my heart,
    "God will bring to judgment
    both the righteous and the wicked,
    for there will be a time for every activity,
    a time for every deed."


     
  2. noctuary

    noctuary Mercurial Goddess

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    I thought the reason why Adam and Eve screwed up in Eden was to then give them the free will to choose God.
     
  3. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

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    I don't see how any of the quotes here leads to the idea that there is no free will.
     
  4. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    Yeah, I don't either. Maybe our pale blue friend can enlighten us?

    There is a cyclical nature to processes both large and small, but I don't see how that negates free will.

    Chris
     
  5. Xavier Breath

    Xavier Breath New Member

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    If, indeed, you believe that there is no free will, then why would you post the argument? We could not possibly agree with you, unless we already did, or were predestined to, in either case it would be a waste of time....
    On a similar note, why did nobody bring an umbrella to the "pray for Rain" Rally in Atlanta?
     
  6. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

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    :D That's brilliant. I had to chuckle.
     
  7. Azure24

    Azure24 New Member

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    Ok, lets look at what Jesus prophesized would happen with Peter:


    Before conversion Peter thought he possessed free will:
    "Peter answered and said unto Him, Though all men shall be offended because of you, YET WILL I NEVER BE OFFENDED" (Matt. 26:33).
    Jesus responded that Peter had no more freedom of the will to stick by such a statement than a donkey:
    "Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, YOU SHALL DENY ME thrice" (Ver. 34).
    Peter again responds from the pinnacle of his presumed free will and CORRECTS Jesus to His face:
    "Peter said unto Him, Though I should DIE WITH THEE, YET WILL I NOT DENY THEE. Likewise also said ALL THE DISCIPLES" (Ver. 35).
    And the rest is history. When Peter was confronted the third time we read this:
    "Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I KNOW NOT THE MAN. And immediately the cock crew… And he went out, and wept bitterly" (Matt. 26:74 & 75b). Free will? Where? Give it up.
    What about all of the other disciples who also thought they possessed this power of free will and self-determinism?
    "But all this was done, that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then ALL THE DISCIPLES FORSOOK HIM, AND FLED" (Matt. 26:56).
    Free will? FREE will? FREE WILL? Where? If you still believe man has a will that is "free" from external and internal causes, beyond his control, then your arguments are not with me, but with God’s Word.
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    It falls into the the thought of we aren't punished for our sins but by them.

    Sure we have free will. Just as we are free to hit our foot with a hammer.

    We all have the right to choose, we just can't choose the consequences of our choices.


    Why didn't they bring an umbrella? Because they lacked the mustard seed.
     
  9. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    I'm of the mind that we are either [slaves] to sin, or [slaves] to Christ. It is only by complete surrender to Christ, or the Spirit of Christ, that we are no longer slaves to sin.

    We have free will only in that we choose who/what we serve.

    [If that makes sense] :confused:

    Love, Love, Love,

    James
     
  10. Azure24

    Azure24 New Member

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    No. Perhaps Wil and others don't understand what i am trying to say. Everything we do is predetermined by God. Has anyone heard the phrase "A man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills"

    Look in the Bible the evidence is all in there, it is just being misinterpreted.

    "In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works [Greek: ‘is operating’] ALL things after [after what? His ‘free’ will?] ... After the COUNSEL of His own will" (Eph. 1:11)!

    You tell me yourself what this is saying....

    "For it is God [who? ‘GOD’] which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

    "And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good…" (Gen. 1:31).

    This must have included the snakes!

    Now why would it say "...it was very good..." if it did not mean it?
    The snake was put there by God to tempt Eve.

    Did Eve herself think that she "freely" willed to sin WITHOUT A CAUSE?


    "And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that you have done? And the woman said [Yes, just what did ‘the woman say?’ Did she say that she "freely willed" to commit this sin? Did she say it was her and all her and nothing but her that did this? Or did she say…], The SERPENT BEGUILED ME[and BECAUSE the serpent beguiled or deceived her, we now have a CAUSE], and I did eat" (Gen. 3:13).

    And what did God have to save about all this blame casting on Eve’s part? Did God say something like this:
    "Oh really, Eve? Yah right, go ahead, try and blame it on THE SERPENT! No, Eve, you ‘FREELY’ willed by your own ‘FREE MORAL AGENCY’ which I gave to you and which is free from ALL CAUSALITY AND BLAME CASTING, to do this thing ON YOUR OWN."

    Is that what God said? Let’s read it:
    "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, because YOU HAVE DONE THIS, you are cursed above all cattle…" (Verse 14).
    There it is. God’s Own answer. But will we accept God’s answer? For most, probably not.

    God plainly said that it was the serpent who "has done this." Eve said it was the serpent that deceived her and God Himself also conceded that it was the serpent that "HAS DONE THIS." That was the CAUSE, and that was the reason for the serpent’s punishment.

    and how about Adam?

    "And the man said, THE WOMAN whom You gave to be with me, SHE GAVE ME OF THE TREE, and I did eat" (Ver. 12).

    And again, did God say something like" "Oh sure, Adam, blame it on your WIFE! You know that you ‘freely’ without any outside cause whatsoever, decided on your own to eat the fruit." Is that what God intonated to Adam? Let’s read it:

    "And unto Adam He said, Because [‘because’—here is the real CAUSE] YOU HAVE HEARKENED UNTO THE VOICE OF YOUR WIFE, and have eaten of the tree …" (Ver. 17).

    The heart played a huge role in Adam’s decision to also partake of the forbidden fruit. In I Tim. 2:14 it reads:
    "And Adam was NOT deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
     
  11. Dor

    Dor Bible Thumper

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    That makes total sense. It is all or nothing as far as I am concerned also.
     
  12. Dor

    Dor Bible Thumper

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    Azure there certainly is free will.
    Now does anyone make any decisions with out any outside influence NO.
    If Wil tells you not to shoot your dog and I am sitting there telling you to shoot your dog and you decide to shoot your dog guess what. You choose to do that it was your free will to do it. Not mine no matter how much I told you to do it.
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I think you have the free will not to believe in free will.

    Another example, should you tell the person standing in front of you that everything is predetermined by G!d. Then that person chose to challenge your perception by pulling a gun and taking all your money, your credit cards and emptying your bank account. Is it your belief that that was predetermined?
     
  14. Azure24

    Azure24 New Member

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    Yes, are you telling me God makes mistakes? That God's intention is not the world that we live in today? That God intented something else but got it all wrong? (why kind of God would that be?) That we as people can handle responsibilty for are own actions? That God does not know already what we will do (even though it is prophisized that a messiah would be born, Peter would deny Jesus three times? and many others things in the Bible?) Tell me something when you achieve good in your life, when you learn something new. Do you thank yourself or do you thank God?

    We CAN make choices but we do not have FREE WILL, there is a big difference.
     
  15. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Ecclesiastes is a lament, by a man who's faith has foundered. Timing has nothing to do with fee will.
     
  16. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    What was being stated was Peter would change his mind, because it was foreseen. God wasn't going Change Peter's mind, Peter would. What Christ was also telling Peter, was that he was creature of habit, and it isn't that easy to break habits.

    Who knows, in another version of the timeline, maybe Peter did not deny Christ. The future, unlike the past, is not set in stone. Even Revelation tells us this...
     
  17. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    Correct!! There is no such thing as free will! You will do as i tell you or else!! ;)
     
  18. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Lol, make me...
     
  19. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    azure24,

    i think you've completely misunderstood what the author of ecclesiastes (traditionally attributed to king solomon) is getting at here, particularly given the context. he's saying there's a *right* time for everything. of course you can do it at the wrong time if you like - that's free will for you.

    incidentally, from G!D's PoV, time surely has no meaning, past, present and future are all One, hence there's no free will because no choice is necessary. however G!D has Created the conditions for such within our universe. so in that sense, what is "predetermined" for G!D (because all time is One to G!D) is subject to choice for us.

    the phrase "very good" in gen 1:31 is traditionally understood by us to refer to the yetzer ha-r'a or "evil" inclination, without which there would be no change, business, procreation or progress. so, yes, it particularly included the snake in this case, because the snake is identified with the YH-R.

    what eve says to G!D in her defence is that the snake confused her - and, indeed, if you look at what the snake said (that "you will become like G!D, knowing the difference between good and evil") this is surely a case of the snake saying something which *was in fact correct*: that the ability to choose is a prerequisite of being able to choose good or evil - which she *did* in fact misunderstand. what G!D then lays out to her is in fact the "small print": OK, you want free will and choice, then this is what goes with it. without this choice, there is no sin - without the possibility of sin/repentance, there is no room for choice.

    clearly, there are additional consequences both for adam and the snake.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  20. Dondi

    Dondi Active Member

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    BB,

    I asked this question in another thread along similiar lines, and I wonder what your take on it is.

    Now I know that there are scriptures that attest to God causing evil to come upon people, but that's usually in the form of judgement. The evil I'm addressing in my question is of the moral variety.
     

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