There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

I'm not asking anyone to believe anything.
Everyone will believe, or not believe, anything they want to.

I am, however, guiding others to reasons why I believe as I do.

Oooohhhh. So while others are trying to be coercive, you're just being helpful.

Isn't that what the others believe too?

They're also just trying to provide you a little helpful guidance.
 
Oooohhhh. So while others are trying to be coercive, you're just being helpful.
Isn't that what the others believe too?
They're also just trying to provide you a little helpful guidance.

It's only "helpful" if they perceive it to be.
"One man's meat is another man's poison."

Everyone is welcome to share whatever they find "helpful."

Regarding why I believe in universal transformation
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

Regarding why I believe in theistic determinism
CHOICE AND DEITY
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 16 - Choice and Deity
 
I can do that, as long as I'm not asked to believe in a god who would allow anyone to suffer forever, like some Christians and Muslims believe.

Everyone is welcome to share whatever they find "helpful."


I'm sure those Christians and Muslims that you refer to in your first quote just think they're being "helpful" too.

But you don't seem to welcome of their sharing their faith with you.
 
I'm sure those Christians and Muslims that you refer to in your first quote just think they're being "helpful" too.
But you don't seem to welcome of their sharing their faith with you.

I have no problem with them sharing.

In fact I do "welcome" their sharing their point of view because I think I can offer a pretty attractive alternative to the millions of Christian who think the Muslims are going to suffer forever in hell, and the millions of Muslims who think the Christians are going to suffer forever in hell.

In fact I think the following two links do a good job of doing just that for anyone who is interested.

Regarding why I believe in universal transformation
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

Regarding why I believe in theistic determinism
CHOICE AND DEITY
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 16 - Choice and Deity
 
Last edited by a moderator:
According to what you have said rodger, it wouldn't matter what anynody believes or disbelieves, so it then becomes rather a task with no purpose to attempt to explain so as to help people understand anything as it matters not at all what anyone believes or not.

According to what I have absorbed from what you have been saying:
Just live your life according to whatever strongest impulses move you (and what is the origin of these strongest impulses?), as you are going to be compelled to obey without question in any case, but don't worry as you are locked into this for some obscure higher purpose and can't do anything about it, so just go with it.
So really, where is there anything which would cause a person to really CARE about anything?

Hearts of stone becoming hearts of flesh is a euphemism concerning the transformation of a person from an uncaring individual into one who has real compassion and empathy and really does give a damn, and thus will restructure their life choices and decisions accordingly.
This is a real and present thing and not down the road in some time when some being returns and sets up their kingdom and makes it all right.
In fact this can and is experienced by many people without the aid of any Jesus personage.
 
Then why did you say, "...as long as I'm not asked to believe..."?
Aren't they just trying to "helpfully guide you" like you're trying to guide us?

They may be trying to "help" me, but I can also explain back to them why I find their point of view unacceptable because of the extremely negative effect it has on many people.
e.g. Fruit from the Teaching of Hell

I'm not "trying to guide" anyone. I'm offering people a different point of view for them to consider.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It wasn't more than a few of hours ago that you said you were!
I think grampy need a nap.
He's not thinking too clearly.

I thought you inferred I was trying to force people to think like I do.
Everyone should find out what works best for them and stick with that.
I was only trying to "guide" people to the reasons why I think like I do.

Regarding why I believe in universal transformation
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

Regarding why I believe in theistic determinism
CHOICE AND DEITY
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 16 - Choice and Deity
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I thought you inferred I was trying to force people to think like I do.

What I was trying to infer was that we share something in common. Both you and I already have a religion. It's one thing to share experiences, but neither of us likes it when it feels like somebody is trying to peddle their religious beliefs on us.

Perhaps you can understand then why people feel that you've been giving us the hard sell in this thread. It's gone way past the point of sharing. It left guidance behind many hundreds of posts ago. It is now and has been for a long time little more than full-on, drum-banging evangelism.

And for some reason, you just can't see that. I really wish that you could.
 
What I was trying to infer was that we share something in common. Both you and I already have a religion. It's one thing to share experiences, but neither of us likes it when it feels like somebody is trying to peddle their religious beliefs on us.
Perhaps you can understand then why people feel that you've been giving us the hard sell in this thread. It's gone way past the point of sharing. It left guidance behind many hundreds of posts ago. It is now and has been for a long time little more than full-on, drum-banging evangelism.
And for some reason, you just can't see that. I really wish that you could.

"It takes two to tango" as the saying goes.
Anyone can stop responding any time they feel like it.
Until then, I will continue to respond to anything that is directed to me.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
"It takes two to tango" as the saying goes.
Anyone can stop responding any time they feel like it.
Until then, I will continue to respond to anything that is directed to me.

It's one thing to respond Rodger.

It's another to always respond with the same message, over and over again. You aren't interested in sharing. You are only interested in indoctrinating and that has little value.

Since my presence is contributing to this dance, I will bow out.

To facilitate my withdrawal, I will add you to my ignore list.

I can't say it's been fun, but it has been illuminating. If I can avoid becoming like you, this would all have been worthwhile.

[rodgertutt on ignore]
 
It's one thing to respond Rodger.
It's another to always respond with the same message, over and over again. You aren't interested in sharing. You are only interested in indoctrinating and that has little value.

Nope, I'm not interested in indoctrinating; only in offering a point of view that is a help to some people.
If it's not a help to you, then stick with what is.

Since my presence is contributing to this dance, I will bow out.
To facilitate my withdrawal, I will add you to my ignore list.
I can't say it's been fun, but it has been illuminating.

It's been fun for me. I'm sorry you won't read this response.

If I can avoid becoming like you, this would all have been worthwhile. [rodgertutt on ignore]

But I think you are like me citizen.
You like to share what is a help to you and I think that's great!
 
I did not start this thread, but I believe in the subject title.
There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

Now that citizen is gone, here, in a nut shell so to speak, is what has been a help to me, believe it, or not.

Like I said before, if this kind of thinking is not a help to you, then stick with what is.

Regarding why I believe in universal transformation
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

Regarding why I believe in theistic determinism
CHOICE AND DEITY
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 16 - Choice and Deity
 
According to what you have said rodger, it wouldn't matter what anybody believes or disbelieves,

It "matters" in the sense that we can benefit from being able to believe that God is positively fitting each person into His master plan in their own unique way.

so it then becomes rather a task with no purpose to attempt to explain so as to help people understand anything as it matters not at all what anyone believes or not.

For me, the "purpose" is to share my perception that no matter what our experiences in life are, nothing can defeat God's intention to, sooner or later, bring everyone permanet positive blessings out of them.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

According to what I have absorbed from what you have been saying:
Just live your life according to whatever strongest impulses move you (and what is the origin of these strongest impulses?),

The "origin" of these strongest influences is the kind of person we are, combined with influences that provolk a response in the form of a choice.

as you are going to be compelled to obey without question in any case,

We will learn by trial and error, and cause and effect.

but don't worry as you are locked into this for some obscure higher purpose and can't do anything about it, so just go with it.

I perceive that as a blessing. Why should we even want to "do anything about it?"

So really, where is there anything which would cause a person to really CARE about anything?

I "care" very much because I can relax in the confidence that, as a unique individual, God will teach me to use my will to make the choices that will be best for me in the long run.

Hearts of stone becoming hearts of flesh is a euphemism concerning the transformation of a person from an uncaring individual into one who has real compassion and empathy and really does give a damn, and thus will restructure their life choices and decisions accordingly.

From my point of view, sooner or later, that will undoubtedly become the character of everyone.

This is a real and present thing and not down the road in some time when some being returns and sets up their kingdom and makes it all right.
In fact this can and is experienced by many people without the aid of any Jesus personage.

In my opinion, sooner or later, everyone will learn that helpful attitude is, in fact, being motivated and taught by Christ, whether or not we attribute it to Him.
Here is why I say that
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice

It is to be understood, of course, that everything I say is from a universalist Christian point of view.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
What if the concepts turn out to be the truth?
Well, lies need to be propped up (clung to,) whereas the truth can stand on it's own. (Albeit it can be buried under a bunch of rubbish.) Not recognizing this is what citizenzen might have been referring to as the delusion of "clinging to concepts."


To be able to believe that evil and suffering are temporary, and God is eventally going to tranform it all into something better for everyone is a big help to some of us.

e.g. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html
This reminds somewhat of a Buddhist meditation where you observe pains, negative thoughts, etc., rise, and then pass away. You can begin to see the temporary nature of such things. You can chose to cling to these things to prolong them, and keep them from passing away, or you can just let them pass away of their own accord. ;)



I can do that, as long as I'm not asked to believe in a god who would allow anyone to suffer forever, like some Christians and Muslims believe.
The word "belief" is related to the word "beloved," as in those who love lies and those who love truth. (Lies need to be propped up, but the truth can stand on its own.) ;)
 
You can choose to cling to these things to prolong them, and keep them from passing away, or you can just let them pass away of their own accord. ;)

We will choose whatever is having the strongest influence on our mind to choose.

The word "belief" is related to the word "beloved," as in those who love lies and those who love truth. (Lies need to be propped up, but the truth can stand on its own.) ;)

Speaking again from a universalist Christian point of view.

According to the Bible all things were made by Jesus Christ (1Cor. 8:6 & Eph. 3:9)
Pilate asked, "What is truth?" John 18:38
Jesus said, "I am the truth." John 14:6

I think that Jesus can "stand on His own."
I don't think He needs to be "propped up."

Our perception of Him, however, can frequently use some "propping up."
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
God is Love: God Is Love!  The Power of God's Love; Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus
 
We will choose whatever is having the strongest influence on our mind to choose.
In this case it is a meditation--your mind observing your mind, and how it works


Speaking again from a universalist Christian point of view.

According to the Bible all things were made by Jesus Christ (1Cor. 8:6 & Eph. 3:9)
Pilate asked, "What is truth?" John 18:38
Jesus said, "I am the truth." John 14:6

I think that Jesus can "stand on His own."
I don't think He needs to be "propped up."

Our perception of Him, however, can frequently use some "propping up."
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
God is Love: God Is Love! The Power of God's Love; Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus

John 13:34-35 Jesus said:
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”​
 
Back
Top