Dondi
Well-Known Member
What do you all make of this Tom Cruise Indoctrination video that was leaked from the Church of Scientology? Does he seem sensible in his beliefs to you?
Video here.
Video here.
Cruise Indoctrination Video
- Thread starter Dondi
- Start date
Pathless
Fiercely Interdependent
What about a more probing question: what is Scientology? It has a horrible stigma as a false, made-up religion--which I understand that it is (but then again, that argument could be made for all religions, which are 'made-up' by someone or someones, sometime) 
--but besides some sensationalized claims like:
That said, Tom Cruise does look a little freaky and ego-trippin' in the video. Then again, this video wasn't intended for wide distribution, so who am I to judge?
Here's a seemingly unbiased run-down of Scientology from the people at ReligiousTolerance.org by the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance:
--but besides some sensationalized claims like:- Scientologists believe that Earth was carpet-bombed with hydrogen bombs by aliens eons ago in order to create life on this planet
- Scientology is a brainwashing, insane cult
- Beck is a scientologist!
That said, Tom Cruise does look a little freaky and ego-trippin' in the video. Then again, this video wasn't intended for wide distribution, so who am I to judge?
Here's a seemingly unbiased run-down of Scientology from the people at ReligiousTolerance.org by the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance:
Beliefs:
The word "Scientology" means "the study of knowledge or truth." The Scientology religion holds that man is basically good, not evil. It teaches that it is their experiences that cause people to commit evil deeds. It is not their basic nature to do so. People can mistakenly solve their problems by thinking only of their own personal interests and overlook or ignore how their acts affect others. This creates interpersonal strife and problems. The Scientology religion also holds that individuals advance to the degree they preserve their spiritual integrity and values, and remain honest and decent — indeed, individuals deteriorate to the degree they abandon these qualities.
Some religions try to help humanity by solving people's problems for them. Scientology is different — it believes in increasing the ability and intelligence of the individual so he or she can improve his own life, overcome those factors that hold him down, and solve his or her own problems. What's more, once one has accomplished this he or she naturally starts to reach out to help his family, friends and society.
The word "Scientology" means "the study of knowledge or truth." The Scientology religion holds that man is basically good, not evil. It teaches that it is their experiences that cause people to commit evil deeds. It is not their basic nature to do so. People can mistakenly solve their problems by thinking only of their own personal interests and overlook or ignore how their acts affect others. This creates interpersonal strife and problems. The Scientology religion also holds that individuals advance to the degree they preserve their spiritual integrity and values, and remain honest and decent — indeed, individuals deteriorate to the degree they abandon these qualities.
Some religions try to help humanity by solving people's problems for them. Scientology is different — it believes in increasing the ability and intelligence of the individual so he or she can improve his own life, overcome those factors that hold him down, and solve his or her own problems. What's more, once one has accomplished this he or she naturally starts to reach out to help his family, friends and society.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
I couldn't make it through the whole 8 min. It was a lot of repetition- "I need to change things. You need to change things. We're the ones changing things. Things need to be changed."
OK, OK. Tom can change things with scientology and I'll continue with my programme of prayer, meditation, and Druid peace rituals. With a fair sprinkling of volunteerism. To each his or her own.
I don't know much about Scientology, but Tom always comes across as slightly fanatical and crazy to me. But then, he does in any interview on any topic. I think it's his expressions that are a little... intense.
OK, OK. Tom can change things with scientology and I'll continue with my programme of prayer, meditation, and Druid peace rituals. With a fair sprinkling of volunteerism. To each his or her own.
I don't know much about Scientology, but Tom always comes across as slightly fanatical and crazy to me. But then, he does in any interview on any topic. I think it's his expressions that are a little... intense.
gp1628
Old Man
I think that the video being referred to is a cut-down version of a 40 minute one given to people inside of scientology. Its not really meant to be understood by people outside of it so it uses many terms that scientologists would not use in public (its against their policy to create confusion).
The editing was very well done. The guy took like a 30 second portion and chopped the beginning, and the end, to make it seem really insane. Then he added the Million Impossible theme music.
Ever since it aired it has been a very popular piece. Tom is the one celeb on the long list of famous people trying scientology that everyone likes to mention. He has always been over-excited and childlike. People used to think it was cute but now they laugh at it and blame his religion. (of course mentioning the others would not have nearly that much effect)
Oh and please dont mention things like aliens or South Park or other such things on this site. I would think that here at least we could be abit more reasonable.
The editing was very well done. The guy took like a 30 second portion and chopped the beginning, and the end, to make it seem really insane. Then he added the Million Impossible theme music.
Ever since it aired it has been a very popular piece. Tom is the one celeb on the long list of famous people trying scientology that everyone likes to mention. He has always been over-excited and childlike. People used to think it was cute but now they laugh at it and blame his religion. (of course mentioning the others would not have nearly that much effect)
Oh and please dont mention things like aliens or South Park or other such things on this site. I would think that here at least we could be abit more reasonable.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
I didn't find the video confusing. I just found it boring and repetitive. Maybe that is also the fault of the editor.
I do find it odd that any religion would make videos of their more famous members. Why? Is it to somehow market their religion to others? Is it to make other scientologists feel good about their religion? I don't get it. It has a distinctively corporate feel to me (and so does the concept of paying large sums of money for special lessons). But hey, to each their own. I prefer free or low-cost spirituality, but if another person feels good paying gobs of money that is their perogative. Personally, I think the money could be spent on stuff that actually helps the world (like various charitable organizations), but it isn't my money or decision. I spend my money how I see fit, and others do it the way they see fit.
I will say that I have a problem with how Scientology has handled certain media/press related issues. There have been a lot of reports that Scientology attempts to control what is said about it, which seems paranoid and, well, uber-controlling to me. If a spiritual path leads people to goodness, love, and enlightenment it will stand on its own and it will not matter what is said against it.
As for aliens and South Park... well, I don't watch South Park. And as far as I know, aliens are part of Scientology's belief system. So I don't understand why that cannot be discussed.
I do find it odd that any religion would make videos of their more famous members. Why? Is it to somehow market their religion to others? Is it to make other scientologists feel good about their religion? I don't get it. It has a distinctively corporate feel to me (and so does the concept of paying large sums of money for special lessons). But hey, to each their own. I prefer free or low-cost spirituality, but if another person feels good paying gobs of money that is their perogative. Personally, I think the money could be spent on stuff that actually helps the world (like various charitable organizations), but it isn't my money or decision. I spend my money how I see fit, and others do it the way they see fit.
I will say that I have a problem with how Scientology has handled certain media/press related issues. There have been a lot of reports that Scientology attempts to control what is said about it, which seems paranoid and, well, uber-controlling to me. If a spiritual path leads people to goodness, love, and enlightenment it will stand on its own and it will not matter what is said against it.
As for aliens and South Park... well, I don't watch South Park. And as far as I know, aliens are part of Scientology's belief system. So I don't understand why that cannot be discussed.
gp1628
Old Man
Heehee. If you go to Xenu.net (an anti-scientology site), or watch YouTube videos, or the South Park parody they go extensively into the alien thing. The god Xenu is an intergalactic tyrrant who flew millions of prisoners in DC8 aircraft to the young planet Earth where their spirits were imprisoned in clams. Later Xenu was imprisoned in a volcano but the freed alien spirits still infest us.
But they will also tell you that is all "secret knowledge known only at the top" (like Vatican level). So 99% of scientologists dont know or care about any of that, and the other 1% call it a badly misquoted analogy and not at all part of their beliefs. But the kids like to keep telling scientologists on the forums that its what they REALLY believe whether they know it or not.
I see that alot on sites with lots of kids. I didnt think Id see it here.
As far as the lawsuits thing I only see copyright or slander suits.
But they will also tell you that is all "secret knowledge known only at the top" (like Vatican level). So 99% of scientologists dont know or care about any of that, and the other 1% call it a badly misquoted analogy and not at all part of their beliefs. But the kids like to keep telling scientologists on the forums that its what they REALLY believe whether they know it or not.
I see that alot on sites with lots of kids. I didnt think Id see it here.
As far as the lawsuits thing I only see copyright or slander suits.
I've never been to xenu.net but I have been to xenutv.com. This is one of the videos they have up there:
Scientology and the Clearwater Police
I don't know how accurate it is but it certainly raises some issues for me.
They also have interviews with people who've left Scientology. A couple of weeks ago I watched the first of this series:
Speaking Freely - "The OT VII Panel"
One of the things I found interesting in that video is that the folks claimed that information they'd given to the church of scientology was being used against them after they left.
Scientology and the Clearwater Police
I don't know how accurate it is but it certainly raises some issues for me.
They also have interviews with people who've left Scientology. A couple of weeks ago I watched the first of this series:
Speaking Freely - "The OT VII Panel"
One of the things I found interesting in that video is that the folks claimed that information they'd given to the church of scientology was being used against them after they left.
greymare
Well-Known Member
to me he sounds like an Amway salesman. Not actually saying much but a lot of blah, blah blah. he did have to stop himself I few times and I imagine it was from saying stronger things. but then again he is a professional liar(actor) so really arent we giving him a bit too much credit. He has all the movies and money in the world. what next? World domination. he certainly has the maniacal laugh working forhim. lol. my apologies to all the amway salesmen out there.
Bruce Michael
Well-Known Member
Hello Pathless,
I have been reading about these "Ontario Consultants"- it seems they don't really give a thorough reading of scientology.
There is no mention of the "free Zone" there- that is the people who operate outside CoS.
I wonder if there is anything about Avatar?- started by a man who broke with CoS.
A little birdie has told me you can get the Avatar materials emailed to you if you find the right site on the internet.
According David Lane the Eckankar movement's founder was a scientologist.
gp1628
Old Man
@Daur: My military training taught me not to look at things as right or wrong, but as propaganda. Probably some truth but worded in a specific slant. Such as "information being used against them after they left". Scientology is not the type of religion where confession clears the record. Its big on self-help courses. The individual must learn to cope with their own life, and talk out things in their past which pushes their buttons (basically a psychiatry point of view). Lets say a person has an incident with their sister in their history which makes them avoid all family gatherings, and getting to that in sessions caused them to leave CoS rather than talk it out until its flattened. True believers in the good of scientology would feel obligated to tell that person that they should return and get that handled. (just a possible other-side version). It would be rather like a christian mentioning that they are involved in a satanic group then leaving the church. To a devout christian that would be a red flag to not leave that alone. There are many who do not have a problem with scientology, but just the Church of Scientology.
@greymare: excellent example. A fanatical amway district level who is talking to the other amway people. Or any group with believers. Maybe a "give money to AIDs" campaign, or the "Save the Childrens" fund, or even the Boy Scouts of America. Any of them would use an excited celeb who offered to give a pitch to the members, inside jargon would be used, and an edited version would tend to look pretty stupid. But in that context it doesnt come off as being scarey world-domination stuff.
@Bruce_Michael: Excellent references. Yes the CoS is having major splitoffs. It makes sense. Most of its purpose seemed to be because in the 1950s you could not offer self-help without being medical or religion. Now of course that is not true. And many splits are occuring from the "church" side of scientology to simply the methods. You might also mention the Literacy programs, Narconon, Criminon, and Corporate Training programs where the scientology methods are used outside of a church environment.
@greymare: excellent example. A fanatical amway district level who is talking to the other amway people. Or any group with believers. Maybe a "give money to AIDs" campaign, or the "Save the Childrens" fund, or even the Boy Scouts of America. Any of them would use an excited celeb who offered to give a pitch to the members, inside jargon would be used, and an edited version would tend to look pretty stupid. But in that context it doesnt come off as being scarey world-domination stuff.
@Bruce_Michael: Excellent references. Yes the CoS is having major splitoffs. It makes sense. Most of its purpose seemed to be because in the 1950s you could not offer self-help without being medical or religion. Now of course that is not true. And many splits are occuring from the "church" side of scientology to simply the methods. You might also mention the Literacy programs, Narconon, Criminon, and Corporate Training programs where the scientology methods are used outside of a church environment.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
Heehee. If you go to Xenu.net (an anti-scientology site), or watch YouTube videos, or the South Park parody they go extensively into the alien thing. The god Xenu is an intergalactic tyrrant who flew millions of prisoners in DC8 aircraft to the young planet Earth where their spirits were imprisoned in clams. Later Xenu was imprisoned in a volcano but the freed alien spirits still infest us.
Ah. Well, that's all really strange, but whatever. There are also people who believe the world is run by reptilian aliens in disguise and plenty of folks who think aliens helped build the pyramids and the Maya temples.
Well, if it is in fact something that is taught at the highest levels, then that is where the lower-level Scientologists are headed, right? The point is to move up in the levels, correct? So a lower-level Scientologist may not believe in the aliens yet, because s/he hasn't heard of them yet. But perhaps people are just trying to say... down the road, here's what you get.
Not a small number of people have observed that Scientology operates like a cult- requiring a great deal of monetary, time, and social commitment of its members, having a very bad outlook on non-Scientologists, etc. I think people who are throwing the alien thing out there are trying to forewarn people who aren't fully sucked in yet. At least, that's my observation of what is going on.
I can't say I understand any of it, because I wouldn't pay for that stuff in the first place, and at the first sign of any religion telling me to ditch my family and friends because they are against my belief system, I'd be running in the opposite direction. But I figure if Scientologists want to do that stuff, whether or not they believe in aliens, it's their business, so long as they are good citizens and play by the rules of US society. (That latter part is the part I've heard they are having trouble with.)
Ah, but what is behind those lawsuits is the problem. They claim slander, it seems, when anyone in the media states a negative opinion of their religion. They copyright a ton of stuff so that it effectively bars discussing them on Websites and in other media. That is all a sneaky way of making sure your religion is never discussed negatively, by people outside your organization. I find it repugnant.
And aside from the lawsuits, more than a few journalists have said they experienced being stalked and/or threatened after doing pieces on Scientology that were negative. That's just plain wrong, legally and ethically.
Again- I say if a religion is good, it will foster love and goodness. And if it is such, it will be able to weather negative press with grace and without lawsuits and threats. The goodness of its people and its benefit to society will show people what it is really all about. I am wary of any religion that is so desperate to be seen in a good light that it stoops to the level of lawsuits and intimidation. Something is far wrong there...
gp,
I guess you didn't watch the video. It wasn't just people telling them things. The people around them were being told deeply personal information that htey thought was supposed to have been private information between them and the church. One guy was out on the street with some friends when someone he didn't know started shouting that type of really personal stuff at him, someone he didn't know was doing that.
That group that had left laughed together as they recalled how they began to feel so much better once they left.
I note you had nothing to say in response to the other video.
I guess you didn't watch the video. It wasn't just people telling them things. The people around them were being told deeply personal information that htey thought was supposed to have been private information between them and the church. One guy was out on the street with some friends when someone he didn't know started shouting that type of really personal stuff at him, someone he didn't know was doing that.
That group that had left laughed together as they recalled how they began to feel so much better once they left.
I note you had nothing to say in response to the other video.
gp1628
Old Man
@path_of_one Im sorry. I didnt mean to provide that as more information about their belief in aliens. In fact Im much more likely to believe that its an overblown thing that the kids like to repeat than actual fact. I just dont see CEOs, and professors, and scientists, and congressmen going that route. If there is any grain of truth in it then Im sure its worded quite differently. After all, people could also ask how anyone can believe in a magic zombie carpenter. (please dont be offended its only an example of wording). And I havent seen any indication that any lawsuits are more than they seemed.
@Dauer Well Im not here as a scientology representative to answer all questions. I didnt have any experience with those things in the video. I only offer an ex-scientologists experiences. I spent a couple of years near a scientology center so my thoughts are that it might not be a general policy thing. After all, you can go to youtube and find equal things about any religion. I didnt think this was that type of site.
@Dauer Well Im not here as a scientology representative to answer all questions. I didnt have any experience with those things in the video. I only offer an ex-scientologists experiences. I spent a couple of years near a scientology center so my thoughts are that it might not be a general policy thing. After all, you can go to youtube and find equal things about any religion. I didnt think this was that type of site.
namaste gp1628,
What about the story I've always heard about him creating a religion on a bet?
What about the story I've always heard about him creating a religion on a bet?
gp1628
Old Man
I kept hearing that also so I looked into it.
L. Ron Hubbard is widely rumored to have said "The way to make a million dollars is to start a religion." There are also variant rumors. For some reason, this is often mentioned on Usenet. One form of the rumor is that L. Ron Hubbard made a bar bet with Robert A. Heinlein.
To quote various sources "This is definitely not true. It's uncharacteristic of Heinlein, and there's no supporting evidence. There is, however, inconclusive evidence that Robert Heinlein suggested some parts of the original Dianetics."
It was George Orwell who said it. In 1938, Orwell did write "But I have always thought there might be a lot of cash in starting a new religion...". That can be verified by googling the George Orwell letters.
On the other hand, Hubbard was a writer, an excellent researcher, and did appreciate Orwell so its possible that he stole the phrase and used it in some bar at some time. After all, if Hubbard is famous for anything its re-using other peoples ideas.
L. Ron Hubbard is widely rumored to have said "The way to make a million dollars is to start a religion." There are also variant rumors. For some reason, this is often mentioned on Usenet. One form of the rumor is that L. Ron Hubbard made a bar bet with Robert A. Heinlein.
To quote various sources "This is definitely not true. It's uncharacteristic of Heinlein, and there's no supporting evidence. There is, however, inconclusive evidence that Robert Heinlein suggested some parts of the original Dianetics."
It was George Orwell who said it. In 1938, Orwell did write "But I have always thought there might be a lot of cash in starting a new religion...". That can be verified by googling the George Orwell letters.
On the other hand, Hubbard was a writer, an excellent researcher, and did appreciate Orwell so its possible that he stole the phrase and used it in some bar at some time. After all, if Hubbard is famous for anything its re-using other peoples ideas.
arthra
Baha'i
I wouldn't call it an "indoctrination" video...
Cruise seems to be talking as if with maybe another person who ostensibly shares his views in an informal manner... There were some acronyms used too ... I heard something that sounded like "PPSP" ..not sure what that is but anyway and a few other acronyms.
I found this site of scientology acronyms that really kind of blew me away..
Operation Clambake presents: ARS Acronym/Terminology FAQ
I use to drive by a scientologist place that had a deck of a ship with masts and rigging and people in sailor suits running around.. It was rather strange to me. Some of them also got in trouble for falsifying their income to get loans to pay for lessons and such...
Maybe this is how Cruise sounds in real life... kinda inartciulate and spooky maybe..
- Art
Cruise seems to be talking as if with maybe another person who ostensibly shares his views in an informal manner... There were some acronyms used too ... I heard something that sounded like "PPSP" ..not sure what that is but anyway and a few other acronyms.
I found this site of scientology acronyms that really kind of blew me away..
Operation Clambake presents: ARS Acronym/Terminology FAQ
I use to drive by a scientologist place that had a deck of a ship with masts and rigging and people in sailor suits running around.. It was rather strange to me. Some of them also got in trouble for falsifying their income to get loans to pay for lessons and such...
Maybe this is how Cruise sounds in real life... kinda inartciulate and spooky maybe..
- Art
gp1628
Old Man
Yeah he was always overly enthusiastic and childish. People used to think it was charming. Now they think its weird and blame scientology. I think he was always that way. Not even scientologists say "hey look at Tom Cruise"
Its also interesting that of all of the celebs that have tried it, Tom Cruise is the one that dedicated anti-sci people love to bring up. As far as I can see he is the one on the lists that best works as a bad example. But then any group Ive ever been in seemed to have the person that overdid it and made the rest of us cringe.
Its also interesting that of all of the celebs that have tried it, Tom Cruise is the one that dedicated anti-sci people love to bring up. As far as I can see he is the one on the lists that best works as a bad example. But then any group Ive ever been in seemed to have the person that overdid it and made the rest of us cringe.
greymare
Well-Known Member
i wonder would people be half as interested if it was just joe blogs from down the road who was a scientologist and was a convincing speaker. think, just because this guy is famous doesnt mean he is immune to some radical religious rantings. and he has influence with peopel with money and perhaps power. I think he is a looney. pure and simple.
gp1628
Old Man
Well I cant disagree with that.
But on the other hand I think Ive seen the same with many other groups. I would try not to judge any group by its well known fanatics. If we fell prey to that then Im not sure if any of our belief-systems would stand up well to it.
I also remember that Ive seen some really well done analogies done by some professional trolls on other forums where people think they are talking about one group but you discover later that its another group. Such as scientology but it turns out to be catholism, or satanism but it turns out to be christianity, or a dangerous cult and it turns out to be baptists, or methodism but it turns out to be wicca. (Im not trying to pick on christianity but those particular ones stuck in my mind since they involved groups Ive had past experiences with). In any case Ive found the comparisons to be eye-openers about being led by the way something is worded (even if they were purposely insulting which makes them inappropriate to many forums).
Gandalf Parker
