Feb 10, 2008

[Saltmeister]

this being neither lives nor dies for any other being.

no being is my lord, though i do acknolwedge my root guru as my teacher.

perhaps you are asking for whom i would engage in such actions for?

Just a bit of humour.....and a metaphor for a person on a mission.

I used to use the idea of a warrior to get through life's struggles, and achieving my dreams and ambitions. I was excited about the idea of a fighter, leading the cause against metaphorical dragons and demons in my life, with my own imaginary army of "will-power." But I wasn't fighting against anyone. It was more like competition and self-improvement.

in that case i say to you that i struggle for those that cannot or will not. it has always been my view that facism, no matter how it is presented or implemented, should be opposed by any means that a being deems ethical.

am i frightened? yes, i am. in the same way that Tom Crui$e knows psychology i know $cientology; the time has come for direct action through the use of psy ops, overt ops and intel ops. i would, of course, not advocate violence nor the intentional harrassment of any $cientology believer for a being is entitled to have whatever religious view that they may want. it is the criminal enterprise which must be engaged and defeated though all ethical means.

it is, of course, somewhat troubling to me to realize that many Anonymous will use unethical means to achieve this end for they have a different ethical standard than i. to the best of my ability, as meager as it is, i shall endeavor to help other Anonymous choose a more ethical path of action.

I think I remember a while back watching a program about a group called the Exclusive Brethren. Just like $cientology, the group asserts a lot of power over people's lives. Anyone who wants to leave or questions the leadership is systematically persecuted by the rest of the group. Most importantly, they will try to separate husbands and wives or threaten them financially or socially. If you are somehow seen as a threat, you get a "you are not to have sex with your wife tonight" message when you go to sleep that night. Because they isolate you from the rest of the world, it's very hard to escape. They don't have television, telephone, computers or Internet. They probably can't call the police for help if they wanted to escape. If you do escape, they take your family away from you. They might actually move them physically to some unknown location so you can't find them.

Exclusive Brethren - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've always wondered what it would be like to sabotage cults. Infiltrate their ranks, pretend you're one of them, behave as they do, sow dissent, stir up trouble, divide the leadership and lead some people astray. Even better: build up an army of saboteurs with a common agenda. Each does their job of confusing and diluting their ideology. The hope is to eventually cause so much confusion, dissent, trouble and to dilute their ideology so much that the group disintegrates. Capture their leader, put him in the boot of a car and have him locked up in your garage....... Perhaps you could cause a civil war and there's a lot of infighting. Then each saboteur becomes a protagonist for sub-groups with different agendas and leads a coup de'tat to dissolve the leadership, taking turns to depose each other, all for the purpose of causing chaos in the group. Eventually it could degenerate into gang warfare as they try and regain their lost unity.....

But that would work best only with the Exclusive Brethren since they actually live close together. If I was to fight a war with $cientology with their lawyers and powerful legal team, I'd have to be a fearless warrior. Maybe I could start a counter-cult called the Church of Anticultology. Train and indoctrinate thousands of Anticultologists to infiltrate cults. We'd have our own lawyers too. Sue them to death!!! These Anticultologists will be renegades behaving like the cultists they serve. Even better. Turn them against each other. $cientologist vs. $cientologist. Let them fight over the scraps. Actually, one of them is really an Anticultologist who wants to sabotage $cientology. They won't know where we're hitting them.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Salty,

thank you for the post.

the current $cientology is the result of a palace coup, so to speak. David Miscavage was born into the cult and is now its leader. prior to LRH dying (interestingly enough his autopsy revealed he was taking anti-depressant medication.. hows that for hypocrisy!) he appointed two sisters to run the organization when he died. once he was gone Miscavage, who was in charge of the $cientology navy, had them rounded up and sent to their slave labor camps... a purge of those that had been loyal to LRH took place not unlike the purges in other facist regimes.

infiltration of $cientology is extremely difficult as they are looking for such. by the time one is in a position to have access to classified material you will have had to undergo 25-50 hours of intense interrogation, Sec Check in their lingo, while connected to their lie detector the E-meter. for most people this will be sufficient to determine who is there for counter-$cientology work. it does not take much training to pass the e-meter as it is an extremely crude instrument, essentially just a galvanic detector. it is the mental training to withstand the Sec Check that takes the time to develop.

2 Feb the second Orlando Fla protest:

YouTube - 147 Floridians call out Scientology

thank you for the link to the Exclusive Brethren, i'm going to check it out now.

metta,

~v

 

[bob x]

Mike Huckabee, Tim Lahaye, and Jerry Jenkins are equally as queer in their own ways.

Did you choose that particular adjective deliberately? Them's fighting words, to those guys!

 

[Pathless]

Did you choose that particular adjective deliberately? Them's fighting words, to those guys!

Oh yes, it was deliberate. I knew what I was doing.

 

[seattlegal]

Namaste Pathless,

thank you for the post.



i'm complex



i am not Anonymous nor is it my wiki site it is, however, a site that one can use as a resource to help to keep the internet free.

Knowledge is Free and those that try to suppress it and charge for it should be opposed. those that would clear the planet of all non believers should be opposed at every opportunity.

i'm not a good Buddhist.

metta,

~v

Namaste all,

good news!

the Christians have joined with Anonymous to fight the good fight!

YouTube - Message To the CO$ & RTC/CALLING ALL CHRISTIANS

metta,

~v

What Buddhists would call a fascist approach to knowledge for money parallels the Christian approach of "You cannot serve God and Mammon," and "the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil." Carry on the good fight!

 

[cyberpi]

I find that the way to defeat those who sell what should be free in the spirit of love, is to learn what they do and to do it for free. If a scientologist wishes to take me to court for doing what is good for free, or to infringe on their copyright, then their founder can return from the grave and personally sue me.

What I am saying is that I see some good, and I see some evil, in what I hear that Scientologists do. In a sense, detecting lies and ailments, and auditing one another is good. Charging each other for it is what psychologists, psychiatrists, and doctors do. I hear the Scientologists love their competition.

 

[Francis king]

I'm amazed, really...

that so many ppl would devote their time to chasing a load of muppets, simply because they exist... why not get back on with the job of living?

u can dress it up, and say it's okay to hate scientologists because they're evil, but... some ppl think that about buddhists, some ppl think that about gays... when does it stop?

It stops when you, as an individual, decides to stop it...

That shouldn't mean that you waste your time fighting them... what for? To feel superior? To them? Ppl who you already don't rate?

Wow...

The king of the dung heap feels superior to those at the bottom, but he still still smells of ****, even if he stands at the top in a gold crown and a golden robe...

Clinging, grasping to these petty little hatreds... give them up...

You want to have a real fight? Sign up at your local dojo or boxing club. Get on the mat and punch the living daylights out of a person who will do the same to you. It feels really good. And it's allowed.

You can even be mates afterwards!

You want to fight them because they are a threat? Not to you they aren't, so whats your worry?

Ahh, you're all doing it to save the morons, how good you are... how noble of you...

isn't that just an excuse?

Of course, being a buddhist doesn't mean you have to be a doormat, but don't use it as an excuse to be an arsehole either. It doesn't work either way.

Yes, I love the thrill of protest and heckling, marching down the street with a million folks all banging the same drum, filled with the giggly naughtiness of it all, refusing to cooperate, but I'd be singing a different tune if it was a Warsaw ghetto, or Tianamen Square...

of course, if you do it because, like Tao says, you think it's amusing- then enjoy, my friend...

I am a heckler... I love it... I do it because I can... I don't have to make excuses...

you want to hate them? why not just do it? There's always someone that society deems to be an acceptable victim...

I am not a peasant... I can see beyond that... You all take a nice high moral stance, but it's not that high at all, in truth... ppl getting brainwashed... it happens everyday... if you are stupid enough to get involved, then more fool you... I have some empathy for you, but little sympathy...

they have fleeced you out of money? More fool you for giving it away in the first place... they play the system for tax breaks and special privileges?

What, like the majority of everyone else does?

Sod them... why give them the free publicity?

But you "hate" "them", so you can bring them down, and it's okay... isn't that what the Nazi's did with the jews..?

of course, that doesn't fit in with what you think is buddhism... such a good buddhist, but so full of misery and hate... how then can you be a good buddhist?

But surely that's the point... grasping is grasping, whether its' to something deemed good or bad...

ultimately, all is emptiness...

 

[cyberpi]

Clinging, grasping to these petty little hatreds... give them up...

I hate organized crime, I hate murder, I hate rape, I hate greed, I hate addictions, I hate liars, I hate... and I hate, in my way, anyone who does these things. I also hate coconut. Does that make me a hateful person?

Yes? You think so? Well then lets examine the opposite: "I love organized crime, I love murder, I love rape, I love greed, I love addictions, I love liars, I love... and I unconditionally love anyone who does these things." Does that make me a loving person?

Or perhaps the apathetic approach: "I don't care about organized crime. I don't mind if you murder. I don't care if you rape me. I don't care if you get addicted. I don't mind if you lie. I just don't care, and I don't mind if people do these things." Well, nope, that is no better.

Be careful with my words though because I picked an extreme to make a point. I submit that Loving people and hating sin are NOT polar opposites. Hating sin doesn't mean fighting crime with crime either.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Francis king,

thank you for the post.

how then can you be a good buddhist?

i'm not a good buddhist and have said so many times, on this very thread even.

metta,

~v

 

[Saltmeister]

you want to hate them? why not just do it? There's always someone that society deems to be an acceptable victim...

But you "hate" "them", so you can bring them down, and it's okay... isn't that what the Nazi's did with the jews..?

of course, that doesn't fit in with what you think is buddhism... such a good buddhist, but so full of misery and hate... how then can you be a good buddhist?

But Francis.....

Have you not seen the audio clip, explored the web sites and read the stories? People have died from $cientology. They do have lawyers and a powerful legal team. Many of the people who died were found clutching onto a small bunch of cash: the only money they had left. They probably went insane knowing that only a small part of their lives were left. $cientology had sucked the life out of them. That's probably why Lisa McPherson went nude after a mild car accident. She was confused and didn't know what to do with herself.

Not doing this to score points here. Just thought I might reply.

$cientology? Not much I can do about it. I don't live in the country where $cientology reigns. Doesn't really affect me much. But it's the same country that's plagued by fundamentalist Christianity. One of the guys in the audio clip said there were already too many cults in their country. Quite true.

 

[Francis king]

Vaj... I know you have said you are not a good buddhist... what I meant to say was...

there's no point describing yourself as a buddhist at all if you are not going to practise the basics and uphold the tenets... that's what a "good" buddhist does... or at least, tries to do...

to be a "good" buddhist all you need to do is... take refuge, practise samatha meditation, read or hear the texts, and give the mahadanas... the five mahadanas are?

not to kill, not to lie, not to hate(not to keep bad blood), not to drink intoxicants and not to steal...

that's it... you do those things, you're a good buddhist... everything else is window dressing...

not to kill... yes, easy to manage... not to steal and drink? easy... not to lie, not to hate?

the hardest parts...

A litle white lie is different to out and out deliberate deception for gain... but not that different... it's hard to live in the real world and not lie... "I didn't do that important assignment, Boss, as I couldn't be bothered- I watched the football instead..." Of course, this might mean you are sacked, so you lie... no big deal... Honesty isn't always the best policy, after all... It's still deceit though, this refusal to accept responsibility for your actions... If you lie, it makes your stance against liars less valid, surely?

not to hate? even harder... hate is a stong word to use for ppl you do not know... I could say I hate too, but I don't... in truth, those ppl (it's always ppl) who I "hate", I do not really hate them at all... instead, I find their behaviours repugnant, or I find their attitudes difficult to understand, as they differ to my own...

I know you have been a buddhist for some time, Vaj, and identify with it, but... to my way of looking at things, you've missed the point completely...

one of the most important things is giving up these concepts that you cling to which you think defines you, the individual, and realising that these ideas and notions, far from being original, are just ideas and concepts...

there is nothing to stop you protesting, to stop you fighting, but... why pick on this group? There's lots of cults out there, there's even buddhist ones...

if they were Muslims, for instance, or Jews, you wouldn't dare... After all, ur a buddhist, right? A decent person, yes? But what's the difference, really? Ultimately, it all boils down to one group of ppl imposing their will onto a group of other ppl...

why not do something positive instead, like... raise some money to send off to Darfur? You know, that place in Africa where ppl are really dying, really suffering? These ppl are not middle class fools with too much money and not enough sense who have been led astray by a shady religion... they are poor, destitute, starving... if you have time and money to waste pursuing these scientologists, why not instead devote that time and money and effort into helping these other folks, the ones who are really suffering, and suffering through no fault of their own?

That's far more noble...
...

saltmeister: I have, of course, read some things about scientology, but no, I have not bothered myself with these new articles and new stories...

the reason for that? I simply don't care... All of these ppl involved have a choice- they choose to become involved... they want something from it, they wind up dissapointed... it happens every day... the whiners should collectively... "suck it up"...

... I find it highly unlikely that scientologists actually kill ppl... okay, maybe what they do means ppl feel so bad they kill themselves, but that is the responsibility of the individual... if you are weak enough to fall for the hype and then, when it all goes wrong, kill yourself, then maybe the world is better off without you anyway...

you can't blame other ppl for killing a person who takes their own life... that decision is theirs, not the scientologists... the ppl who died where found clutching a small amount of cash... I think that says it all, doesn't it?

so miserable, and so bereft of a future they kill themselves, yet die holding a wad of greenbacks... that's hilarious...

It's funny what ignorance and greed greed can do... It's funny that a hokum religion dreamt up by a science fiction writer has so much power... but by itself it has no power... the only power it has is the power given to it by other ppl...
...

the people who get involved in religion are of two types: sheep, and wolves... the majority are sheep... they have been, like the rest of us, conditioned to believe they need a master, a father, a guru, a group, a leader, a title, some descriptor... and so they go off looking for one...

Ten years ago I probably would have been there with you, with my placards, fighting this evil, and I would have made the same excuses too-

I am behaving like any bog-standard ignorant type does, but it's okay, as I'm a buddhist, and somehow, my fascism is then acceptable... ignoring the fact that the majority of ppl involved are nothing more than idiots, and adults, and should be left to do their own thing...

People need to stop being such fools... unfortunately, I cannot prevent them from acting like fools... So, what do I do? Do I try to impose my will upon them for their own good? What kind of adult relationship is that? It isn't.

I am doing this for the good of others? Rubbish... ppl do things because there is some gain or reward for them... as individuals...

I am grateful, in fact, to all those cults who remove morons from normal society... I would prefer that they took these moron sheep followers and hid in the outback, far away from me and mine, as then I would not have to rest my eyes upon them. I would not have to listen to their whining like little girls when it all goes wrong.

But no, instead, I have to listen to these crying fools who won't accept responsibility for their own idiocy, who seek to blame others for corrupting their minds or dipping into their wallets or stealing their souls...

take responsibility for yourself... you've been played? So what.. deal with it...

suck it up

 

[cyberpi]

Well, I think there is more to it Francis.

Imagine if I designed and made a drug that I think is good for people. In truth it is highly addictive and once you have tried it your body is going to go into withdrawals if you don't come back for more. You don't realize it though. So I begin marketing the drug because I really want to own people... that is, to get rich. Now those who bought into the drugs and spent years learning its effects, might have more information about it than even I do. Afterall, I didn't really run a large batch of drug tests or case studies to see what the results would be. That would cost money. Besides we are not practicing medicine, we are practicing a religion. But it is bad for sales to have people sharing my secret recipes and talking negatively about the minor side effects. If someone who has used my drugs actually speaks out against me... that would be bad for sales. What can I do? Well I could sue the culprits. For what? Copyright infringement. Our secret drugs are copyrighted... we are a business-religion so if anyone reveals our secret recipe then we will sue them. Well now the secret recipe is out there, but people are still talking about its harmful side effects. So we will coerce them to shut them up.

Now if this addictive drug was heroine, then the government would be against me. If this addictive drug is nicotine, alcohol, gambling, or prostitution, then I'd still be the sin master. But if my addictive drug is biofeedback relaxation in combination with my beliefs.... well then the government is on my side. I can convince the government to respect my copyright, and have federal marshals raid the homes of anyone who dares to post information about my secret higher level designer drugs. Furthermore, it will be nearly impossible for individuals to sue me for the coercion that my empire is going to inflict to shut them up.

It is where Freedom of Speech meets Scientology, that I take an interest:
Scientology and the Internet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am a strong proponent of freedom of speech. I also submit, that when you hook up a couple of electrodes to someone, it is now called a medical procedure. It is not just a religion. You are now taking information so that you can administer the drug that you want to induce into the person. You find out what stirs their emotions, by the biofeedback, and you can utilize that. You use their brain to manufacture a drug. They don't ingest it, their brains produce it. A week later they will want to come back for more without even realizing what they are getting into. People don't realize the power of true relaxation due to biofeedback.

Now, I've personally never done drugs. The reason is, people told me of its harmful side effects, and I placed faith into their testimony. But if I did not have that information then I might be convinced by someome to try it (placing faith in them), and there are some drugs I hear where you do it once then you are hooked.

I personally think the biofeedback is good. I have played with it. It is used by doctors. I think the relaxation techniques are valuable. However, I demand public scrutiny of it. There is a drug and I see people getting hooked. I see addiction. I see prostitution. If it were a medical procedure then it would be required that it be reviewed by the public. The medical community does that.

The difference between Christianity, Buddhism, and Scientology that I see, is that presently with one of them someone could come sue you for posting a verse here. You can't compare it. The difference is also that Scientology hooks electrodes up to you, to measure how well the drug is being taken. People don't realize the power of that, because it looks harmless. To a child, Heroine in their hand looks harmless too, and so does a cigarette, or a prostitute. Society I think is behind the curve on biofeedback... it is still something relatively new. If it gives a person control of their own relaxation and helps them, great. If they become addicted... that is not good. I want to hear from former Scientologists about it with freedom of speech. I have played with biofeedback personally, but I have never been 'audited'.

I am personally opposed to the 'war on drugs' instituted by Government if it involves incarceration... if you do drugs it is your business. However, I personally value the 'war on drugs' if it involves education. Educating children about addiction, before it happens. I value the freedom of speech to talk about it. If there were a secret drug that teachers are not allowed to talk about, because the 'auditing' techniques are protected... I see a problem.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Francis King,

thank you for the post.

there's no point describing yourself as a buddhist at all if you are not going to practise the basics and uphold the tenets... that's what a "good" buddhist does... or at least, tries to do...

hence my use of the term "Buddhist" to describe the religious paradigm that i adhere to.

If you lie, it makes your stance against liars less valid, surely?

this is an interesting argument that i've heard many people make.

essentially, it seems, the argument is that if you actually do something and have experience with it your views regarding the positive or negative aspects are less valid than someone that has not done them.

applying this sort of view it would seem to make the convicted felon telling me not to comit a crime because prison is terrible less valid than the person who has not been to prison telling me it's valid.

isn't the terribleness of the prison validation enough?

not to hate? even harder... hate is a stong word to use for ppl you do not know... I could say I hate too, but I don't... in truth, those ppl (it's always ppl) who I "hate", I do not really hate them at all... instead, I find their behaviours repugnant, or I find their attitudes difficult to understand, as they differ to my own...

i typically do not use the term hate either as it really is very imprecise and i don't recall feeling that way towards any thing or any being, my verbiage with regards to expressing negative feelings would tend to things like "deplorable" and "strong dislike".

I know you have been a buddhist for some time, Vaj, and identify with it, but... to my way of looking at things, you've missed the point completely...

thanks for your view.

one of the most important things is giving up these concepts that you cling to which you think defines you, the individual, and realising that these ideas and notions, far from being original, are just ideas and concepts...

if you are saying that ideas and concepts are ideas and concepts it seems banal to even say.

if you are suggesting that i cling to ideas and concepts i would have no contention with that, i have only made some progress along the path and have not uprooted i-making nor identification of views. i practice more mindfully at sometimes than others.

there is nothing to stop you protesting, to stop you fighting, but... why pick on this group? There's lots of cults out there, there's even buddhist ones...

i had thought i made my views clear on this.

any group that has the avowed aim to clear the planet of anyone that doesn't share their views and speaks out against them should be oppposed, in my estimation.

i'm concerned about the undue influence that celebrities have upon the democratic process and the specific intentions that $cientology has towards celebrities and how to use them to further their cause.

i support freedom of religion and freedom of speech and oppose any group that would seek to limit that.

if they were Muslims, for instance, or Jews, you wouldn't dare... After all, ur a buddhist, right? A decent person, yes? But what's the difference, really? Ultimately, it all boils down to one group of ppl imposing their will onto a group of other ppl...

so you would be in support of organized crime, then?

of course i would oppose any group of beings that have the same stated aims as $cientology. i spoke out regarding the Muslim demands for censorship of the Muhammad cartoons and shall do so again.

why not do something positive instead, like... raise some money to send off to Darfur? You know, that place in Africa where ppl are really dying, really suffering? These ppl are not middle class fools with too much money and not enough sense who have been led astray by a shady religion... they are poor, destitute, starving... if you have time and money to waste pursuing these scientologists, why not instead devote that time and money and effort into helping these other folks, the ones who are really suffering, and suffering through no fault of their own?

That's far more noble...

why do you suppose that i have not?

more to the point, of course, is that these two things are not related.. one does not have to choose one or two causes to be motivated to bring change to, in my estimation.

if you honestly think that $cientology is comprised of middle class fools then i would suggest that you read the links and some of the testimony by ex-$cientologists.

by the by.. when we are talking about $cientology killing people i don't mean through neglect or depriving them of medication to stave off suicide, i'm talking about orders given to have people killed.

just like Tom Crui$e knows about psychology and psychiatry, i know about $cientology.

metta,

~v

 

[Tao_Equus]

Francis,

A most uncharacteristic post from you!! Well at least the first post of yours I have felt you to be pompous, arrogant and, perhaps worst of all, conservatively middle class. Reading your post I had the line from the Dead Kennedys song 'Holiday in Cambodia' ringing in my ears. The line that goes "Play your ethnicy jazz to parade your snazz on your 5 grand stereo....bragging that you know how the niggers feel cold and the sun's got so much soul". When were you last in Darfur.....helping?


Tao

 

[path_of_one]

I find the whole Scientology thing problematic because of the freedom of speech and press issues with which it is associated. It is not as if it only negatively effects its own members. Journalists and other members of the press who were never members have reported being stalked and threatened by Scientology people. That is illegal as well as just plain immoral.

Basically, Scientology has a bunch of cash and believes it should not have to play within the rules of the rest of US society. I think all groups who think that way, be they religions/cults, corporations, or individuals are wrong and a problem for law-abiding society in general.

Whether or not we should be trying to protect weak-minded (or spiritually weak, depending on your view) people from cults is another matter entirely.

But I think it is clearly right to fight against Scientology's attempts to control the media. At least if you believe in freedom of speech and press. If you're pro-censorship and for organizations with a bunch of money getting to ignore the laws and stalk journalists, then to heck with it.

 

[gp1628]

Im guessing that no one on here has ever tried scientology?

If any of the litigation stuff was still true then most of my favorite sites on the net would be looking very different. Im guessing that this one would also. The only real difference I see is that they can sue for copyright infringment. Thats only because they started in the 1950s and can still "prove" the source author (altoh I think more of it is taken from other religions and self-help sources than actually invented by Hubbard)

 

[Pathless]

I've never tried scientology, but I have heard from a good source that it tastes like chocolate cake.



Save me a piece, L. Ron!

 

[Saltmeister]

I didn't know it was something you could eat.

 

[path_of_one]

Im guessing that no one on here has ever tried scientology?

I don't pay a bunch of cash for spiritual growth. Plain and simple. I will pay reasonable sums (i.e., to cover the costs of a building, a reasonable salary for directors, and the cost of materials) to help along a group that I feel is doing good work and is a good "home" for me. From the costs I have read about the lessons in Scientology, they are unreasonable. They far exceed any costs I have seen in any other religion I've been involved with.

I regard religion as a non-profit endeavor. So whenever I see large sums of money being charged, it automatically turns me off to that religion, no matter what the religion espouses. This includes certain Christian churches I have been to, so it is not limited to non-mainstream religions. There are just too many good social and environmental causes for me to give my money to, and too many free or very low-cost workshops, churches, groups, courses, and other materials for helping me on a path of spiritual growth.

If any of the litigation stuff was still true then most of my favorite sites on the net would be looking very different. Im guessing that this one would also.

Please explain? I think quite a few sites fly under the radar until they get enough attention. The larger sites and most certainly television and print media seem to have the bulk of the litigation threats.

Additionally, if it was only litigation, I would probably still think that it's a poor way to handle the situation as a religious organization, but whatever. But the reports of threats and stalking by journalists is disturbing. Of course, it is the reports from journalists and not from Scientology. However, there does seem to be evidence that at least at one time leaders did encourage poor treatment of people who spoke out against Scientology, and there are ex-Scientologists who say they had problems after leaving the religion. Furthermore, I doubt there is some sort of conspiracy of journalists against Scientology to spread rumors about stalking.

Of course, lots of people play on the strangeness of Scientology, but that's a different issue to me. All religions are pretty strange when you look at them through a different person's perspective. What concerns me are when religions charge a lot of money or attempt to force others to join with them or to limit opinions (some negative) about them.

 

[gp1628]

I don't pay a bunch of cash for spiritual growth. Plain and simple. I will pay reasonable sums (i.e., to cover the costs of a building, a reasonable salary for directors, and the cost of materials) to help along a group that I feel is doing good work and is a good "home" for me. From the costs I have read about the lessons in Scientology, they are unreasonable. They far exceed any costs I have seen in any other religion I've been involved with.

Really? I took a 2 week course on Personal Communications (which took me a month because I was in the military) for $50. And it was a fantastic course. I couldnt begin to figure all of the time and materials but Im guessing it exceeded $50. The next one, Better Studying was I think $100 and well worth it also. Even at the top you are not too unreasonable since those are 1-on-1 counseling so I think they are priced about equal to other such services.

Of course those are the self-help courses which I think you were actually referring to. Joining the church is free, attending the services is free. They dont even pass a plate. From what Ive seen of other religions (christian, jewish, islamic, bhuddism) Im not seeing a real problem with the charges.

There are just too many good social and environmental causes for me to give my money to, and too many free or very low-cost workshops, churches, groups, courses, and other materials for helping me on a path of spiritual growth.

True enough. I cant really argue with that. In fact, now that its possible even the scientology stuff can be gotten from the library or from a group such as Free Zoners outside of the churchy aspect.

Please explain? I think quite a few sites fly under the radar until they get enough attention. The larger sites and most certainly television and print media seem to have the bulk of the litigation threats.

Oh I didnt mean little sites. Sites such as CafePress or Yahoo Answers or even Xenu.net for that matter would be flooded with litigation if such things were still going on. Its not like scientology is operating like the catholic church which I see in court quite abit lately. I think much of this is 60's stuff.

However, there does seem to be evidence that at least at one time leaders did encourage poor treatment of people who spoke out against Scientology,

There is that. At one time there was a policy called "fair game" which was pretty nasty. But when Hubbard heard of it he shut it down. Im not sure if any group would want to answer for every church that decided something was right. What was that church recently that was doing such horrible things at a military mans funeral because he was gay?

and there are ex-Scientologists who say they had problems after leaving the religion.

I have theories on that. For a group that is so big on teaching self-empowerment its hard to leave if you dont do it right. If you mumble something about "maybe I will take a break" or "I just want the reactions in my family to die down" then thats abit of a red flag to true believers of self-decision. Kindof like telling the christian church that you are leaving because you have an interest in satanism.

Furthermore, I doubt there is some sort of conspiracy of journalists against Scientology to spread rumors about stalking.

According to the EFF.org the last major case scientology did was 2001. And most of the ones I see are slander or copyright cases.

Of course, lots of people play on the strangeness of Scientology, but that's a different issue to me. All religions are pretty strange when you look at them through a different person's perspective. What concerns me are when religions charge a lot of money or attempt to force others to join with them or to limit opinions (some negative) about them.

Agreed. It sets me off also.