Feb 10, 2008

Really? I took a 2 week course on Personal Communications (which took me a month because I was in the military) for $50. And it was a fantastic course. I couldnt begin to figure all of the time and materials but Im guessing it exceeded $50. The next one, Better Studying was I think $100 and well worth it also. Even at the top you are not too unreasonable since those are 1-on-1 counseling so I think they are priced about equal to other such services.

Perhaps I haven't seen accurate information. From what I understood, lower-level courses were cheap but the farther up you went the more expensive it got. I've seen copied e-mails that quoted prices over $10K for higher-level courses. If, in fact, these higher-level courses are much cheaper, then I concede. But if they aren't, then it appears that people get sucked in for cheap and then when they feel like they're making progress and want to advance, a big bill comes due, which seems underhanded.

But once again, it depends on the person. I would avoid such things, but I don't exactly believe it's my job to go around "protecting" people from making such decisions.

Joining the church is free, attending the services is free. They dont even pass a plate. From what Ive seen of other religions (christian, jewish, islamic, bhuddism) Im not seeing a real problem with the charges.

I thought the church was tied up in moving through the levels, but then I am not a Scientologist, so I may be mistaken there. It may be like the Druidry organization to which I belong- you can be a Druid but if you want all the materials, you have to chip in for their cost at a reasonable rate. Gotta pay for the paper, shipping, ink, and so forth somehow. They have scholarships for people who can't afford it, even given the low rates, and scholarships for workshops too. In that org, the mentors and personal counseling is free, but then it is via mail and/or internet to keep costs down.

Oh I didnt mean little sites. Sites such as CafePress or Yahoo Answers or even Xenu.net for that matter would be flooded with litigation if such things were still going on. I think much of this is 60's stuff.

I'd have to go back and look at the dates. I think there have been more recent cases, but it's not that huge of a deal for me. Not on the fore-front of my interests or concerns.

At one time there was a policy called "fair game" which was pretty nasty. But when Hubbard heard of it he shut it down.

Who started it? I thought he was aware of it and had sent memos encouraging it until it became apparent that it would bring pretty bad PR. It still concerns me that it seems that people are told to severely limit contact with anyone (even their own families) that disagrees with Scientology or has a negative opinion. At least, that is what some ex-Scientologists say. I would think that a believer would be able to hold their own against well-meaning family members without limiting contact? Of course, if a family member is abusive that is one thing, but from what others had written, it was not abuse at all, just disagreement.

Im not sure if any group would want to answer for every church that decided something was right.

Of course they wouldn't want to, but this sort of thing should be carefully monitored, no matter what the religion. If a church does things that is in opposition to the ethics of its overarching religious body, that is a problem. Ethically, it is a problem, but also just in managing the organization. It leads to confusion on the part of members and non-members alike, and distorts the true message, if it is a good one. I think the same way about Christian churches and I cringe when I see them do things that go against the message of Christ. In Christianity, most churches are governed by a denominational organization of some sort that keeps tabs on it. However, there are denominations that branch off and do stuff that most of the rest of Christians disagree with, but have no "jurisdiction" over. I don't know if Scientology works that way or not- where each church is independent? I thought it was more centrally organized, but I don't know.

For a group that is so big on teaching self-empowerment its hard to leave if you dont do it right. If you mumble something about "maybe I will take a break" or "I just want the reactions in my family to die down" then thats abit of a red flag to true believers of self-decision. Kindof like telling the christian church that you are leaving because you have an interest in satanism.

I guess. I'm for spiritual exploration, so to me it is a red flag whenever any church or religious group has problems with people re-thinking their decisions, exploring new religions, or even just taking a break to have fun.

And I don't quite think the analogy is a good one. Taking a break (perhaps to catch up on rest, focus on financial or family concerns, or whatever) and taking time to honor one's familial relationships, to ease them into one's spiritual shift are not antithetical to self-empowerment. In fact, sometimes one needs a break to rest before continuing on a journey of self-actualization.

Satanism, on the other hand, (if you mean LaVeyan Satanism) is antithetical to Christianity in that it espouses focus on self whereas Christianity espouses focus on God and others.

That said, I still think if a person decides to leave a Christian church to explore Satanism, people should be loving about letting them go. They can pray for the person, or seek to have a few heart-to-heart talks, letting them lovingly know their worries. But each individual is an adult and responsible for themselves. I think we should uphold the dignity and capacity of each person to find their own spiritual path without fear, threat, intimidation, shunning, and so forth. We should love others and be available to them, but avoid patronizing attitudes where we think we know what is best for them. That's just my belief.

Most of the time, when people say they are "helping" others by shunning them or threatening them, it is actually because they are fearful of contamination. Another person's lack of conformity attacks the solidity of their own beliefs. It makes others in the group wonder, "What if s/he is right? What if I need to do that? What if I've got blinders on?" Personally, I think this type of reflection is good. From my experience, it weeds out things I am buying into because a group buys into it from things I truly believe because it has been my spiritual experience. Doubt yields greater faith, if fear is pushed aside and one truly seeks after love and goodness.

And most of the ones I see are slander or copyright cases.

I understand that. What I am trying to say is why sue over slander? It is costly and unnecessary. If it is a spiritual organization that is furthering good, it will be redeemed by its goodness no matter what some people say. Law suits to prove goodness are unnecessary. Most religions face slander by some one, even (or especially) the big ones! I think the way this is typically handled, through ignoring it, is most mature and shows the most patience. Over time, goodness and love, if they are present, show the value of a religion.
 
Francis,

A most uncharacteristic post from you!! Well at least the first post of yours I have felt you to be pompous, arrogant and, perhaps worst of all, conservatively middle class. Reading your post I had the line from the Dead Kennedys song 'Holiday in Cambodia' ringing in my ears. The line that goes "Play your ethnicy jazz to parade your snazz on your 5 grand stereo....bragging that you know how the niggers feel cold and the sun's got so much soul". When were you last in Darfur.....helping?


Tao

LOL


And pathless.. I heard it taste like chicken. :|
 
Perhaps I haven't seen accurate information. From what I understood, lower-level courses were cheap but the farther up you went the more expensive it got. I've seen copied e-mails that quoted prices over $10K for higher-level courses. If, in fact, these higher-level courses are much cheaper, then I concede. But if they aren't, then it appears that people get sucked in for cheap and then when they feel like they're making progress and want to advance, a big bill comes due, which seems underhanded.
Hmmmm well even going to the hate sites such as Xenu.net they quote that the higher levels are at a couple of hundred dollars an hour. Whether anyone agrees that its equal to psychiatry that is basically what it is to them so the price seems comparative. How much a person finally spends would depend on how much they needed to work out. And the horror stories mention people spending as much as $300,000 to reach final levels. Thats the price of a small house. Not exactly the breaking I have heard. And by comparison that would be vatican levels. Not something most would do. And I believe that the price is very reasonable compared to reaching the same levels in other religions.

I also dont really see a direct connection between the general self-help courses and the ladder to becoming staff. At least no more so than any other religion. I dont think that communications, study courses, detox from drugs and alcohol, etc necessarily lead me to want to become a scientology minister.

On your comment about not being the one to protect people against scientology I totally agree. I also dont want myself to seem to be in the business of pushing anyone towards it. It does have its faults and is definetly not something I would direct everyone to do.

Who started it? I thought he was aware of it and had sent memos encouraging it until it became apparent that it would bring pretty bad PR.
I dont remember. Its stuff that Ive seen in other scientology arguments on other boards. But I was in scientology at the time that was supposed to be rampant and I dont remember anything even close to it. If anything it strikes me as being quite opposite of what they are about and what I saw. But then some people would say they were all evil actors and I was duped. Pardon me for not believing that. :)

It still concerns me that it seems that people are told to severely limit contact with anyone (even their own families) that disagrees with Scientology or has a negative opinion. At least, that is what some ex-Scientologists say. I would think that a believer would be able to hold their own against well-meaning family members without limiting contact? Of course, if a family member is abusive that is one thing, but from what others had written, it was not abuse at all, just disagreement.
Basically its their version of non-aggression. They are not into direct conflict. They are into empowering yourself to achieve your own goals. Its not just about scientology. If there is any goal which you yourself feel that you should be achieving, and people around you are not helpful, then their instruction is to pull back. The only manifestation of it Ive ever seen is that scientology refuses certain courses while you are still in conflict with your family. That could be put into a good light, or a bad light. Personally I think its just to avoid hearing the whining of nothing getting done while listening to "my mommy is against me being here". They say go handle it.

On the other hand, doesnt most religions have something along that line? Shunning, ex-communication, etc.
Shunning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Christianity, most churches are governed by a denominational organization of some sort that keeps tabs on it. However, there are denominations that branch off and do stuff that most of the rest of Christians disagree with, but have no "jurisdiction" over. I don't know if Scientology works that way or not- where each church is independent? I thought it was more centrally organized, but I don't know.
They do try to control. More so than most. But of course that also gets painted in a bad light. They publish strict guidelines, but of course that leads to people saying how controlling they are (usually neglecting to mention that its controlling of their own ministers). They have a problem with their 'tech' being debated and watered down outside of trained ministers, but of course that leads to people "leaking their secrets". As I always say, everything has its pros and cons. To view something in only one light is the road to fanaticism for both sides.

I guess. I'm for spiritual exploration, so to me it is a red flag whenever any church or religious group has problems with people re-thinking their decisions, exploring new religions, or even just taking a break to have fun.
They are non-denominational. They really do not care what religion a person is. And they have no problem with any of those. Its not usually the decision that causes a problem but the way its presented. To a group so big on self-empowerment there is a difference between "I feel Im done and Im going to leave" vs "ummm well Ive been thinking that maybe I want to take a break for a while".

That said, I still think if a person decides to leave a Christian church to explore Satanism, people should be loving about letting them go.
Your experiences with christian churches seems very different from mine. When people say "cult" and talk about pushing strange beliefs, invasive into homelife, asking for money, and making it hard to quit.. then I have to think tha I ahd much more problem with the baptists than I did with the scientologists.

Most of the time, when people say they are "helping" others by shunning them or threatening them, it is actually because they are fearful of contamination. Another person's lack of conformity attacks the solidity of their own beliefs.
I totally agree.

I understand that. What I am trying to say is why sue over slander? It is costly and unnecessary. If it is a spiritual organization that is furthering good, it will be redeemed by its goodness no matter what some people say.
I agree. I dont think that the lawsuits over slander help. And I think the lawsuits over copyright hurt them also but they are locked into that.

As far as seeing the good... thats debatable. I feel like I should agree but I see so many incredibly stupid posts about scientology (not yours, you dont spout cartoon knowledge and refuse to discuss. Thank you for that). I rarely see mention of benefits. People want to assume that when scientologists are doing well in life that its faked, when they are smart and happy then they must have been brainwashed since smart people wouldnt do that. Or when donations are made they dont mention the many charities and programs. If they do mention them its as "front organizations". People seem to work awfully hard at painting everything scientology in a bad light.

On the other hand, maybe you are right. No matter what I seem to see there is a growth. Mostly from friends bringing in friends. (but of course you know how that is painted also, right?) :)
 
Namaste gp1628,

thank you for the post.

Hmmmm well even going to the hate sites such as Xenu.net they quote that the higher levels are at a couple of hundred dollars an hour.

do you suppose that you can substantiate your claim?

it is, of course, quite common to hear $cientologists lable all sites that expose the facts behind the creation of $cientology and those that are critical of the organizations tactics as hate sites... even going so far as to claim they are victims of hate crimes from such sites.

Whether anyone agrees that its equal to psychiatry that is basically what it is to them so the price seems comparative.

psychiatry is a business. religion is free.. and so is $cientology now.

I dont remember. Its stuff that Ive seen in other scientology arguments on other boards. But I was in scientology at the time that was supposed to be rampant and I dont remember anything even close to it. If anything it strikes me as being quite opposite of what they are about and what I saw. But then some people would say they were all evil actors and I was duped. Pardon me for not believing that.

what level were you, either in terms of $cientology hierarchy or the Tone Scale or the Bridge?

They are not into direct conflict.

Paulette Cooper:
AGORAVOX - The Citizen Media

$cientologists at their "everyone welcome street fair"

YouTube - Scientology Crazy Followers

both of those seem to be fairly incontrovertible.

I rarely see mention of benefits.

there are demonstrable benefits to some of the techniques which are used, ones which are used in psychology and other theraputic practices dealing with emotional and mental states.

People want to assume that when scientologists are doing well in life that its faked, when they are smart and happy then they must have been brainwashed since smart people wouldnt do that. Or when donations are made they dont mention the many charities and programs. If they do mention them its as "front organizations". People seem to work awfully hard at painting everything scientology in a bad light.

$cientology does that itself and the videos which have been released, along with material from the Source demonstrates this quite conclusively, in my estimation.

perhaps all the ex-$cientologists that lost all their money, family and friends are all lying simply to save face or try to get some revenge... perhaps they are telling the truth... perhaps its somewhere in between but i wouldn't characterize them as "working hard" to present $cientology in a bad light.

just fyi.. i'm one of the evil people, the SPs that cannot be helped by the Tech and must be eliminated to produce a more harmonious society so it is unlikely that we will find any common ground regarding the organization though, as i've stated previously, you are free to hold whatever beliefs that you would like though reading through some of your responses it seems as if you do not think that is the case. perhaps some folks don't think you should hold $cientology beliefs, but i'm not one of them.

metta,

~v
 
Namaste gp1628,
do you suppose that you can substantiate your claim?
To what? The cost or the hate site comment? Surely even if you feel xenu.net is the fountain of truth it must also bear a title that its purpose is anti-scientology. Even as far as a hate-site. Just as I would list scientology.org as an overly pro-site. Usually I would avoid crediting either one but in the case of making some points saying that "even xenu.net says" is helpful.

what level were you, either in terms of $cientology hierarchy or the Tone Scale or the Bridge?
Like most people (62% according to xenu.net) I took a couple of courses then left. Im sure that will allow you to say that I was blind to the vatican level knowledge but for most of the posts that feels to me to have as much force as a christian not knowing the vatican secrets.

there are demonstrable benefits to some of the techniques which are used, ones which are used in psychology and other theraputic practices dealing with emotional and mental states.
Exactly. And many of the self-help techniques can now be found in other self-help programs.

perhaps all the ex-$cientologists that lost all their money, family and friends are all lying simply to save face or try to get some revenge... perhaps they are telling the truth... perhaps its somewhere in between but i wouldn't characterize them as "working hard" to present $cientology in a bad light.
All of the ex-scientologists? Millions in 162 countries? We see maybe a dozen over and over on youtube and you feel that the rest are all hiding. And try to categorize me into some nice little niche also. Im guessing that all scientology true believers are also insane, or brainwashed, or "in on it"?

as i've stated previously, you are free to hold whatever beliefs that you would like though reading through some of your responses it seems as if you do not think that is the case. perhaps some folks don't think you should hold $cientology beliefs, but i'm not one of them.
Thanks I appreciate. I actually never thought of myself as being pro-scientology. If anything I considered myself in the middle and definetly did not plan to spend much time on scientology posts. But on some forums I see such rampant dung-rolling (getting bigger and bigger with each person) that it makes my fingers itch to type something.
 
I took a couple of Scientology courses many years ago. Never did any auditing, though. I have a couple of friends who are Scientologists. There are a lot of different levels of involvement with Scientology from which one can choose, but there is always pressure to increase one's commitment. My impression of the students and teaching system is that it's a lot like Dale Carnegie on steroids. What I mean is that, well...if you've ever had to attend one of those gawd awful "how to be a power salesman" seminars for your job-- it's like that.

Chris
 
Namaste GP,

thank you for the post.

To what? The cost or the hate site comment?

the hate site comment.

Surely even if you feel xenu.net is the fountain of truth it must also bear a title that its purpose is anti-scientology. Even as far as a hate-site. Just as I would list scientology.org as an overly pro-site. Usually I would avoid crediting either one but in the case of making some points saying that "even xenu.net says" is helpful.

that someone or something is critical of another person or orgnization does not mean that the being or thing is hateful.

claiming that sites which take alternate points of view are hate sites is quite unusual. if that were the case THIS forum would be a hate site.

Like most people (62% according to xenu.net) I took a couple of courses then left. Im sure that will allow you to say that I was blind to the vatican level knowledge but for most of the posts that feels to me to have as much force as a christian not knowing the vatican secrets.

ok.

so do you know where you were on the Tone Scale?

All of the ex-scientologists? Millions in 162 countries? We see maybe a dozen over and over on youtube and you feel that the rest are all hiding. And try to categorize me into some nice little niche also. Im guessing that all scientology true believers are also insane, or brainwashed, or "in on it"?

who said anything about millions? that there ARE ex-$cientologists, OT VII Auditors and higher, if that means anything to you, is sufficient evidence for the claim that there are ex-$cientologists which have a far more comprehensive working knowledge of the organization and its operations.

i don't care much for conversations regarding who's a true believer and who is not, if someone claims to be a true believer then that is sufficient for me.

Thanks I appreciate. I actually never thought of myself as being pro-scientology. If anything I considered myself in the middle and definetly did not plan to spend much time on scientology posts. But on some forums I see such rampant dung-rolling (getting bigger and bigger with each person) that it makes my fingers itch to type something.

do you feel that any of the posts in this thread are "dung-rolling"?

metta,

~v
 
the hate site comment.
that someone or something is critical of another person or orgnization does not mean that the being or thing is hateful.
claiming that sites which take alternate points of view are hate sites is quite unusual. if that were the case THIS forum would be a hate site.
There is a big difference in this site vs xenu.net. The entire purpose of xenu.nets existence is anti-scientology. And the tone of many of the articles are pretty hateful. Truthfully its not the most extreme case but I wouldnt consider it to be a site trying to provide simple facts.

so do you know where you were on the Tone Scale?
This was decades ago. I had to look it up. But in general Id say that Im usually a 6.0 but I was probably 8.0 when I left.

who said anything about millions? that there ARE ex-$cientologists, OT VII Auditors and higher, if that means anything to you, is sufficient evidence for the claim that there are ex-$cientologists which have a far more comprehensive working knowledge of the organization and its operations.
Is there a percentage? How does that compare to ex-catholics, or ex-Amway_Distributors, or ex-boyscouts. Ive seen some pretty burning (and hard to believe) dissertations by ex's of many types. I dont tend to automatically take them as the way things really are in those groups. I dont dismiss them entirely but I dont take a small group at their word (even if who they are talking about makes me really really want to)

do you feel that any of the posts in this thread are "dung-rolling"?
None on the subject of scientology leap to mind here. This board has a better standing in that than forums such as (surprisingly) BeliefNet, or AnswersYahoo. Way better than YouTube or Amazon.


Gandalf Parker
 
Is there a percentage? How does that compare to ex-catholics, or ex-Amway_Distributors, or ex-boyscouts. Ive seen some pretty burning (and hard to believe) dissertations by ex's of many types. I dont tend to automatically take them as the way things really are in those groups. I dont dismiss them entirely but I dont take a small group at their word (even if who they are talking about makes me really really want to)

I think it's quite reasonable to think that so-called ex-adherents of a tradition influence those still adhering to be "more hostile" by their own hostile attitude, to the point that the tradition itself seems more hostile.

So in exposing "the truth" about something, you actually change the object you are describing. That happens a lot in this world of our's. In our attempts to expose truth, we change the truth because of the way people respond to what we say.

Take a bunch of fundamentalists (of just about any tradition). Talk about how evil, vindictive and hateful they are and how they destroy people's lives. They will, of course, try to defend and justify their actions and attitude. That just makes the phenomenon even more "evil" (in your perspective). So it's like they become even more fundamentalist by asserting and defending themselves. In your/our view, the fundamentalist should keep quiet. But if we hadn't said or done those things, they would not have said or done those things. We influenced their behaviour.

Yes they are separatists, but deep inside, despite their separatism, they do have some kind of peace-loving attitude inside their own community. We are their enemy. In a way, we are all separatists. From the fundamentalist point of view, we are the separatists.

But if everyone is a separatist then there are no separatists. It's just a sea of conflicting political and ideological forces and influences. Separatism implies that there is an absolute authority, an absolute standard by which all things can be evaluated. Where there is no absolute authority/standard, there is no real separatism. There is merely conflict.

A lot of politics works that way as well. And politics.....is driven by perception. Is there hatred and evil all around?.....not necessarily. Fill the sea of conflicting political and ideological forces and influences with empathy and understanding......and the hatred and evil simply dissolve and disappear. The hatred was never really there. It was just paranoia....the illusion of an enemy. People don't really hate. They just don't understand. Their perceptions are wrong. So they participate in this vicious cycle/circle of wrong perceptions. They continue to stick labels on others that are no better than just mere perception. When we all wake up from this ridiculous dream where we vilify what we don't understand, peace and justice will reign like it never did before.....:eek:

Maybe I'm just another dreamer.:eek::confused:
 
...don't ya just love it when ppl throw that "middle class" stone at ya when u disagree with them...?

I will be going to Darfur, Tao, after I have made sweet love to ur mother... again...

(we could trade "middle class" and "mother lover" insults all day, if u like...)

...we could build a little fence, and throw flaming bags of dog poo onto each other's patios...

....

I followed ur link to wiki, cyberpi, and even had a look at clambake and Zenu... thanks for that... I have to say I agree with the old man gp1628- clambake is more humerous, but they both could be described as hate sites...

...

Vaj...

my point was, albeit banal, that if you, personally, haven't been fleeced, or if you personally haven't had your mind warped by them, then what's the big deal?

You yourself say: any group that has the avowed aim to clear the planet of anyone that doesn't share their views and speaks out against them should be oppposed... but aren't you playing the same game, Vaj?

You want rid of them because?

"you're concerned about the undue influence that celebrities have upon the democratic process and the specific intentions that $cientology has towards celebrities and how to use them to further their cause.... [and because you're] ... concerned about the undue influence that celebrities have upon the democratic process and the specific intentions that $cientology has towards celebrities and how to use them to further their cause".

Maybe where you come from, ppl listen to celebs, but here, we mock them, quite openly, in magazines like "Heat"... If a person is such a fool that they listen to a celeb's political opinions and allow those opinions to effect their own political decisions, then maybe they should not be able to vote in the first place... Honestly... would you take political advice from Tom Cruise?

...

Path-of-one...


Of course I am in favour of large powerful corporations stalking journalists... it makes good copy...
....

okay, scientology is a wierd one, but they are not luring you from your home country with the promise of a low paid job in the service industry only to tie you up in a brothel and force you into having sex for money for five years to pay off a debt you didn't know you had...

scientology does not burn hundreds of it's followers in ritual suicides, like the Solar Temple did, it does not make it's followers drink Kool-Aid and lay down like they did in Guyana, it does not encourage child marriage or flirty fishing, it does not inspire it's followers to commit acts of terrorism, nor does it steal babies from african countries and pass them off as miracles...

these are the kinds of behaviours which, in cults, we should not tolerate...

...I still feel that although it is noble to campaign against injustices, and try to make a difference, your motivation should be noble too- there is no point using campaigning as an excuse to hate out-groups when the out-group itself is not especially dangerous to you or anybody else, in the great grand scheme of things...

...scientology, like cults before it, will eventually end... how many of the, lol, "powerful" ppl are still into Kabbalah? But hey, in the 1990's ppl were saying the same thing about that- it was shady, a secret club for the powerful and rich elite, when in truth, it was just a fad... much like scientology is...

...there's more important things to worry about, surely?
 
Namaste GP,

thank you for the post.

There is a big difference in this site vs xenu.net. The entire purpose of xenu.nets existence is anti-scientology. And the tone of many of the articles are pretty hateful. Truthfully its not the most extreme case but I wouldnt consider it to be a site trying to provide simple facts.

are you sure it is "anti" $cientology and not pro-$ciengologist? the founder of the site was a high ranking member of the Org and spent time in SeaOrg as well, iirc.

does speaking out against something make something defacto hateful?

This was decades ago. I had to look it up. But in general Id say that Im usually a 6.0 but I was probably 8.0 when I left.

interesting.

i was a 1.0.

Is there a percentage?

it's hard to say since $cientology is not very forthcoming with things like membership numbers and so forth.

by some accounts there are less than 50,000 $cientologists worldwide but other accounts put the numbers in close to 1,000,000 so i suspect your precentage would depend on the number of $cientologists there actually are.

How does that compare to ex-catholics, or ex-Amway_Distributors, or ex-boyscouts.

since i'm not talking about those groups i really couldn't say though i would have to suppose that there are far more ex-Catholics and Boyscouts than current $cienotology members.

Ive seen some pretty burning (and hard to believe) dissertations by ex's of many types. I dont tend to automatically take them as the way things really are in those groups. I dont dismiss them entirely but I dont take a small group at their word (even if who they are talking about makes me really really want to)

what if you read account after account from various beings which confirmed previous accounts? would you give more creedence to them then? of course one should always try to investigate the issue from both sides of the debate, so to speak.

None on the subject of scientology leap to mind here. This board has a better standing in that than forums such as (surprisingly) BeliefNet, or AnswersYahoo. Way better than YouTube or Amazon.

i'm glad that is your view.

metta,

~v
 
Namaste Francis King,

thank you for the post.

Francis king said:
Vaj...

my point was, albeit banal, that if you, personally, haven't been fleeced, or if you personally haven't had your mind warped by them, then what's the big deal?


i did gather that was your point though i may not have communicated it well.

You yourself say: any group that has the avowed aim to clear the planet of anyone that doesn't share their views and speaks out against them should be oppposed... but aren't you playing the same game, Vaj?


only if you equate organizations with the people that are part of them. i am, and have said repeatedly, all for a $cientologist having any beliefs that they want. i am opposed to the organization of $cientology specifically the RTS and the AIM which control the Orgs and the Church.

You want rid of them because?


i oppose genocide?

"you're concerned about the undue influence that celebrities have upon the democratic process and the specific intentions that $cientology has towards celebrities and how to use them to further their cause....

Maybe where you come from, ppl listen to celebs, but here, we mock them, quite openly, in magazines like "Heat"... If a person is such a fool that they listen to a celeb's political opinions and allow those opinions to effect their own political decisions, then maybe they should not be able to vote in the first place... Honestly... would you take political advice from Tom Cruise?


maybe they shouldn't be able to vote.. but they can vote and they do vote.

i wouldn't listen to Tom Crui$e telling me a biography of Tom Crui$e let alone take political advice from him. that does not have any particular relevance though as i'm not a politician in need of money and votes and the sort of rub-off celebrity that being associated with celebrities often brings.

metta,

~v
 
does speaking out against something make something defacto hateful?
Not at all. But there is a difference between providing facts and spewing hate. Its all propoganda. The same facts can be provided with very different words chosen to specifically lean things a certain direction. Its often done and takes some training or practice to spot it. But some are done lightly, and some are done so strongly as to turn the facts into something quite abit more questionable.

interesting.

i was a 1.0.
Thats kindof one of my points. People get the impression on some of these forums that everyone is either 100% brainwashed scientologist, or an ex-scientologist that fled them in fear of the church. With abit of reading its not hard to see that its much more normal than that. There are plenty of scientologists who are willing to speak out against some things the church is doing but still stay scientologists. And according to xenu.net 62% of people take a few courses then leave. Out of millions that would appear to be alot of people like me who took courses, liked it, but moved on without joining staff. About what would be expected.

Im not blindly believing that everyone who leaves the church leaves it high-tone. But I dont like the leading of the internet sheep down the path that everyone leaves it bottomed out either.

it's hard to say since $cientology is not very forthcoming with things like membership numbers and so forth.

by some accounts there are less than 50,000 $cientologists worldwide but other accounts put the numbers in close to 1,000,000 so i suspect your precentage would depend on the number of $cientologists there actually are.
Im not seeing that much of a problem. Scientology (and alot of anti-scientologists) tend to treat any membership as being a "scientologist". But scientology does not require conversion to take a course. The lower numbers tend to be based on census surveys and such for how many people claim scientology as their religion. According to Xenu.net 53% of scientologists are christian. That means that those 53% are counted by CoS as being scientologists, and pointed to by the downsayers as a gap in the numbers.

what if you read account after account from various beings which confirmed previous accounts? would you give more creedence to them then?
Oh Ive read accounts I agreed with. But what I tend to see is that the most flaming fire-and-brimstone accounts are often posted to forums, and the supportive ones are the lighter ones which support one or two minor items of the first post.

of course one should always try to investigate the issue from both sides of the debate, so to speak.
Of course. I spend far more time over the last few years reading the anti-scientology sites than I do the pro-scientology sites. In fact it seems like, in my situation, the only time I get news of something in their favor such as a new charity or program they support, is by reading the version on something like xenu.net then going to news.google for the media version.

Gandalf Parker
 
Namaste GP,

thank you for the post.

Not at all. But there is a difference between providing facts and spewing hate. Its all propoganda. The same facts can be provided with very different words chosen to specifically lean things a certain direction. Its often done and takes some training or practice to spot it. But some are done lightly, and some are done so strongly as to turn the facts into something quite abit more questionable.

can you give me an example from the site in question?

i agree that providing information and promulgating hatred are different things.

Thats kindof one of my points.
Im not blindly believing that everyone who leaves the church leaves it high-tone. But I dont like the leading of the internet sheep down the path that everyone leaves it bottomed out either.

as well you should not believe that, LRH's own private biographer left the Org as a 1.0 on the Tone Scale.. of course that was after LRH died and Mi$cavage started the purge of all those loyal to the Broekers.

how have you determined that those reading the posts are sheep? that seems to proclaim a knowledge about a great many beings which seems somewhat impossible to verify.

according to the Source only about 2.5% of the population are 1.0 on the Tone Scale so it wouldn't be accurate to say that everyone leaving $cientology is at a 1.0.

Im not seeing that much of a problem.

i am not see what you are saying here. you asked what % of people were ex-$cientologists who write about $cientology, or so i presumed, and i stated that there was no manner by which i'm able to give you a % since we don't know the amount of people that are in $cientology.

Scientology (and alot of anti-scientologists) tend to treat any membership as being a "scientologist". But scientology does not require conversion to take a course. The lower numbers tend to be based on census surveys and such for how many people claim scientology as their religion.

how else would one determine someones religion without asking them and then accepting their word that they believe what they profess?

According to Xenu.net 53% of scientologists are christian. That means that those 53% are counted by CoS as being scientologists, and pointed to by the downsayers as a gap in the numbers.

"downsayers"? :)

53% of 50,000 does not get one to 1,000,000..... even with the new math as near as i can tell.

Oh Ive read accounts I agreed with. But what I tend to see is that the most flaming fire-and-brimstone accounts are often posted to forums, and the supportive ones are the lighter ones which support one or two minor items of the first post.

interesting but that is not what i asked.

metta,

~v
 
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