Faith and Politics

Janz

Janz

What's Amatta U
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I have been lurking around CR for some time and I don't really know if this thread belongs here or even if this issue has been discussed before; but, the subject of how faith informs political policy is one that has interested me for some time now.

I live in the United States in a very politically conservative part of the country where theologically conservative Christians have a strong voice. Something that I have noticed is that those who are the loudest tend to be against reproductive choice for women as well as against gay rights. They also line up with limited government, pro-business, pro-war, anti-Global Warming positions of the Republican Party and if you belong to the Democrat Party, you can't be a "true" Christian.

Another strong belief is that the USA was founded as a Christian Nation (one nation under God) and needs to pass laws that are based upon what they believe to be "Biblical Truths." I am wondering how does your faith inform your voting?

Where do the lines of separation of church and state begin to be threatened by a theocracy and is it possible for secular democracy to survive when many people of faith want their religion to be the law of the land for all citizens?
 
Jamarz said:
...I am wondering how does your faith inform your voting?

Where do the lines of separation of church and state begin to be threatened by a theocracy and is it possible for secular democracy to survive when many people of faith want their religion to be the law of the land for all citizens?
Click to expand...
Namaste Jamarz,

Well we know the separation of church and state is something buried in our minds and has some case law background but as of constitutionally we've only got "Congress shall pass no law..." Which is hopefully enough to keep the Huckabee types from making this a 'Chrisitian' nation and adding the 10 commandments to our laws.

Now I like the 10 commandments but I'm as against creating unenforcable, unfathomable laws like you'll not covet whatever, or honor your father and mother...that could easily be quickly worse than Sharia law. Where some neighbor indicates another had some coveting look, or defining what honor means...yikes.

Again, I'm a Christian, but I respect the constitution and don't wish to see it modified by zealots of any kind.

And does my faith affect my voting?? Sure does, I didn't vote for Huckabee.
 
Hi Jamarz,

Southern Colorado? South of Canon City? Up here in the Springs, also known as the Evangelical Vatican, Democrats have formed a liberal underground. We meet at Poor Richards resturaunt and discuss ways to keep our country free from the domination of what we call OREO or Oppressive Religious Evangelical Overlords.

Okay, I made that up, but seriously all the liberals do get together occasionally and the both of us keep voting democrat...
 
Thanks for the replies and yes, Paladin I do live in the Springs..for the past 26 years. What I think that I am experiencing here is an example of politics informing a person's faith. I just finished reading an interesting book that was written in 1990 by James W. Skillen called The Scattered Voice, Christians at Odds in the Public Square.

He identifies 7 different political perspectives that he believes are held by Christians in the USA's political arena of the early 90's...can't believe that was 18 years ago..but I think what he has to say still holds true today. Anyway, I don't know if anyone here has read the book or is interested in discussing this issue any further; but I found some of what he discussed to be interesting although he really didn't offer any solution that I found appealing.

So does anyone have a theory to why Mike Huckabee ran for President? Did he really believe that he could win the Republican nomination or was he the candidate that Evangelicals could vote for and feel comfortable doing so. I really believe their goal was to sink Mitt Romney's bid for President because no matter what is said publicly, there is no way, Evangelicals would support a member of the Mormon church running for the highest office in this country.
Just my thoughts.
 
Jamarz,
I'm not familiar with Skillen or his work, care to talk about some of his ideas?
I like to think people like Huckabee do what they do out of a deep seated value system, and beliefs about what this country should be. The Christian influence in politics still has me a bit confused sometimes because of what the Republican party stands for and what Christianity originally stood for seem at odds to me. De-regulating business to the point that atrocities are committed by business every day, exploiting third world workers, using bullying tactics to get their way, running roughshod over every idea that I was taught coming up in the Lutheran faith. Then there is the idea of preventative war and this more than anything has me wondering what it is Christianity stands for today. Is it that a blind eye is turned to issues like this because the GOP promises to cater to the more shall we say aggressive side of the Christian faith?

There are congregations here in the Springs that I find exhibit the best of what Christianity has to offer. The Rev. Jim White, now retired pastor of First Congregational Church downtown is a brilliant man and tireless worker for justice and peace. And he is only one , there are others, like Rev Jerry Trigg who used to be pastor of First Methodist, another great man I admire.
The Pikes Peak Justice and Peace organization here works so very hard as do the sisters down at the soup kitchen.
So what gives? Have Christians jumped into bed with the devil to further their aims? Or am I simply confused?
 
Namaste all,

generally speaking i'd prefer to have a political leader thinking that his actions will have consequences and that they would have to answer for them.. perhaps it will help them make a moral or ethical choice when they may not have.

regarding the separation of religion and government, i'm all for it.

"religion makes politics look noble, politics makes religion a sham."

metta,

~v
 
Jamarz said:
I have been lurking around CR for some time and I don't really know if this thread belongs here or even if this issue has been discussed before; but, the subject of how faith informs political policy is one that has interested me for some time now.

I live in the United States in a very politically conservative part of the country where theologically conservative Christians have a strong voice. Something that I have noticed is that those who are the loudest tend to be against reproductive choice for women as well as against gay rights. They also line up with limited government, pro-business, pro-war, anti-Global Warming positions of the Republican Party and if you belong to the Democrat Party, you can't be a "true" Christian.

Another strong belief is that the USA was founded as a Christian Nation (one nation under God) and needs to pass laws that are based upon what they believe to be "Biblical Truths." I am wondering how does your faith inform your voting?

Where do the lines of separation of church and state begin to be threatened by a theocracy and is it possible for secular democracy to survive when many people of faith want their religion to be the law of the land for all citizens?
Click to expand...

Hi Jamarz, Great to see you posting!

I also don't see how we can separate our faith from the rest of our lives, including our views on politics. What is politics but trying to figure out relationships on a societal level? It's a good thing we don't have a true democracy but a modified version that avoids some of the traps of the tyranny of the majority.

As far as I can tell, the "Christian" right does not support my views about what Christianity is about:


6 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?

7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe him,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness [a] will go before you,
and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.

9 Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
"If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,

10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.
 
I think that, under a slightly different definition, religion is one component of a larger sense of group identity. Superman fights for truth, justice and the American way. The "American way" is a sort of catch-all marker for all of the cultural components that make up our nationalistic sense of identity. Religion, in terms of the "Religious Right" is more than just faith, affiliation, and dogma. It's part of an identity which includes everything that makes conservative "Christians" feel unique, superior, and connected. It includes all of our mythological heroes like John Wayne or Ronald Reagan. It includes the American work ethic. It includes a racial and ethnic superiority complex, classic misogyny, and class consciousness. Lots and lots of things besides just religion.

Chris
 
I agree, Chris. I think the "Religious Right" is only partly about religion- the rest is other aspects of cultural identity that unifies the group and is partly responsible for the Religious Right's departure from Biblical Christianity (i.e., what Lunamoth is pointing out).

Basically, from my point of view, following Christ is in direct opposition to much of "American" culture. It is against materialism and capitalism. It is against class and other distinctions. It is for working tirelessly for the most "insignificant" people in the society (the poor, those without family, those in prison). And, though I know many would disagree with me... I really think that following Christ means abandoning nationalism all together. Christ calls us to see humankind as brother and sister, as children of God, as He Himself. We are not called to serve only our friends- for everyone does this. We are called to raise to a higher level of love- to serve all of humanity, all beings.

Does my faith influence my politics? You betcha. I can't see how it could be otherwise.

But do I want a theocracy? No.

I believe every person is on a path toward spiritual awareness- a path toward God, an awakening of Christ within them. I believe God is sufficient to move people to serve one another, to encourage each other. I believe God is sufficient to spread His love- through us and in us. We can't mandate love. We can't mandate faith. We can't even mandate morality. We can only mandate behaviors that allow society to continue to function. But none of that (law) can cause a person to become loving, giving, good, moral. People must come to that awareness on their own, and we can only help them by showing God's love to them, by being Christ's hands and feet on earth. It is by demonstration, not demand, that we spread the message of Christ, which is love.

"Peace cannot be created through force. It can only be achieved through understanding." (Einstein)

Not only outer, but inner...
 
path_of_one said:
I believe every person is on a path toward spiritual awareness- a path toward God, an awakening of Christ within them..
Click to expand...
For the whole post ~ Amen Sister!

Now maybe we need to jump over to a new thread, but can you expound on the above?

Is "the Christ" an ideal, or Jesus?
 
wil said:
Is "the Christ" an ideal, or Jesus?
Click to expand...

Here's little 'ole Kim's take on it. But of course, I put forth first that these are my current concepts, and they aren't the basis of my faith. The basis of my faith is an embracing of the Mystery that is Christ through spiritual experience and awareness, not through thought. So, what I say here is my thought about that Mystery. But it only points to it; I really can't define the Christ any more than I can define God.

I believe the Christ is neither only an ideal nor Jesus. The Christ is the Logos of God, the grace and love of God made manifest in humanity- overcoming all seeming opposition to unify humanity and divinity. The Christ is the light of God, that which penetrates the darkness and guides us home.

Jesus was a historical person, who was born and died. The Christ is an eternal Truth- not an entity that is, but rather more like Being itself. ("I am that I am.")

Jesus, the historical person, was a manifestation of the Christ in the flesh. He possessed the light of God, the Divine Light, without measure- it consumed Him entirely. We could say that Jesus was Christ incarnate, or the Logos made into physical reality. Timelessness entering time.

This Divine Light, the consciousness of Christ, the awareness of the grace and love of God, is in each of us as well. As we die to self, we come alive in Christ.
 
path_of_one said:
This Divine Light, the consciousness of Christ, the awareness of the grace and love of God, is in each of us as well. As we die to self, we come alive in Christ.
Click to expand...
Namaste all,

Sorry to divert we'll get back to politics...

I'm with you all the way so far Kim. Now as we all have the Christ within (as I believe indicated by namaste), do you also believe that the same result, oneness with the creator could be accessed thru following Buddha, Krishna, Moses, the Tao, etc?
 
wil said:
I'm with you all the way so far Kim. Now as we all have the Christ within (as I believe indicated by namaste), do you also believe that the same result, oneness with the creator could be accessed thru following Buddha, Krishna, Moses, the Tao, etc?
Click to expand...

I do not think a person has to identify with the religion of Christianity or even know about Jesus to grow in Christ. Christ always has been and always will be. It is a blessing to have the teachings and life (and death) of Jesus through the Gospels as a guide, but without them Christ would remain.

I think it is entirely possible to grow in Christ (overcoming the apparent separation of divinity and humanity) by following the teachings of Buddha, Krishna, Moses, etc. (or even no tradition at all).

I think that if one is growing in Christ, which is evidenced by becoming more like Him, then that is ultimately who one is following (whether one knows it or not). I find the oneness through the teachings of Jesus and the old Celtic myths and practices. Another may find it through the teachings of Buddha. Still another, through Muhammed. And so forth. I have seen people of all faiths become aware of oneness and exhibit what Christians call the fruits of the Spirit. So I conclude that the Spirit of God is at work within them, and they are honoring the Divine Light within them. This is not only, I feel, the most rational and simple conclusion, but also is intuitively right when I experience the energy of these people. (It's hard for me to explain what I mean- it isn't a feeling so much as a sense.)

The teaching is a vehicle for our journey. It isn't the destination or the journey itself.

Christ is the healer of the breech between humanity and divinity, and it always existed as a Truth. I believe Christ is "the way, the truth, and the life" (and yes, the only way to the Creator) (John 14:6). I just don't think people have to share the same religion or doctrine to find that way, truth, and life. What they must share is sincerity in their seeking.
 
Namaste all, and thank you for allowing the diversion. I hear you loud and clear Kim and love it all!

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

I'd bet higher percentage of Catholics voted for John Kennedy, and that Lieberman got a good Jewish vote, and Romney a good Mormon vote, I don't know how many Quakers Nixon brought out of the woodwork.

I'd say for most of us our faith plays a roll. It does with those that base pro-life, pro choice decisions on faith, others base it on science, or personal ethics and that affects their vote.
 
i'd say that kennedy got voted in because protestants were prepared to overlook his catholicism (and because his father bought all those votes from the mafia) and leiberman because a lot of people were prepared to overlook his being jewish, etc, etc. in the same way, reagan owed his election to the "reagan democrats", thatcher to disaffected labour voters and blair to disaffected conservative voters. i don't think it's as simple as you're all saying. the trouble with us politics is that it reduces all questions of faith to a bunch of simplistic yes/no "hot-button" issues such as abortion, gay marriage, school prayer and the like, which make for absolutely no intelligent discussion at all.

if you want a really good book on why the us "right gets it wrong and the left doesn't get it" i thoroughly recommend rev. jim wallis' "G!D's politics", which you can buy at any good bookstore.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Jamarz said:
I am wondering how does your faith inform your voting?
Click to expand...
That is a twisted question because the word faith is being used as a belief or a religion, rather than having true faith in God or in a person. A book or a ritual or a belief has been supplanted for God. Voting for someone and giving them power over a third of you (30% tax bracket), is placing real faith in them. The vote is between candidates with whom you will place faith in. Imagine if I lined up two potential spouses for you and said, "Thou shalt place 30% of your will, mind, and heart into one of these two candidates". Whatever God has given us... 30% must go to one of these two administrations. Or must we willingly place that degree of faith in individuals who do not place faith in us?
 
path_of_one said:
I do not think a person has to identify with the religion of Christianity or even know about Jesus to grow in Christ. Christ always has been and always will be. It is a blessing to have the teachings and life (and death) of Jesus through the Gospels as a guide, but without them Christ would remain.

I think it is entirely possible to grow in Christ (overcoming the apparent separation of divinity and humanity) by following the teachings of Buddha, Krishna, Moses, etc. (or even no tradition at all).

I think that if one is growing in Christ, which is evidenced by becoming more like Him, then that is ultimately who one is following (whether one knows it or not). I find the oneness through the teachings of Jesus and the old Celtic myths and practices. Another may find it through the teachings of Buddha. Still another, through Muhammed. And so forth. I have seen people of all faiths become aware of oneness and exhibit what Christians call the fruits of the Spirit. So I conclude that the Spirit of God is at work within them, and they are honoring the Divine Light within them. This is not only, I feel, the most rational and simple conclusion, but also is intuitively right when I experience the energy of these people. (It's hard for me to explain what I mean- it isn't a feeling so much as a sense.)

The teaching is a vehicle for our journey. It isn't the destination or the journey itself.

Christ is the healer of the breech between humanity and divinity, and it always existed as a Truth. I believe Christ is "the way, the truth, and the life" (and yes, the only way to the Creator) (John 14:6). I just don't think people have to share the same religion or doctrine to find that way, truth, and life. What they must share is sincerity in their seeking.
Click to expand...

path_ of_ one..I so agree with what you are saying here..thanks so much for sharing because the "personal is political" if I may borrow a phrase from the "old leftist, feminist guard" and then stretch the metaphor a bit. :D

The experiences, feelings, and possibilities of our personal lives and beliefs are not just a matter of personal choices that we hold in private but they are defined and molded by the broader political and social setting. And they can shape the broader context as well through our actions.

Sometimes humanity will approach their faith beliefs through the lens of a specific cultural bias and read into their religious sacred text, those prejudices.

I believe that is what Skillen was addressing in his book however, I find that he is not free of the same problems that he criticizes but he does have some interesting thoughts about voluntary organizations ie families, churches, businesses, non-profit charities and foundations, that are differentiated as distinct from the political order- that is to say that the many organizational structures exist for different purposes, on different terms, under different authorities and in considerable independence from one another.

So what Christians here in the USA need to address is what they believe should be the proper responsibilities belonging to the political order in contrast to the responsibilities that belong to the nonpolitical institutions.

More in my next post...
 
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