China Cat Sunflower
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I like the idea that there is meaning in the mundane activities of life.
Chris
Chris
Do these commands.....
- Thread starter Joedjr
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Only if God is part of that life...then the mundane is no longer "mundane"...
China Cat Sunflower
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God does whatever it does regardless of whether I believe in it or not. I don't believe, I don't disbelieve. I can be honest about it. I can avoid making an idol of it. So I'm good on at least two commandments.
Seriously, do you think the Hebrews had a flippin' clue what God really is? It might as well be Puff the Magic Jewy Dragon from their descriptions. I'm supposed to believe that God lives in a mountain and collects foreskins? Gimme a break!
I may not crack the grand mysteries of the universe, but life isn't meaningless. There's reason to believe that the actions of each person do make a difference. I call that faith. I suppose it's easier for me, being that I'm a carpenter and not a lawyer. My work is clean, ethical, and meaningful. I do things right. I am a righteous man.
Chris
Seriously, do you think the Hebrews had a flippin' clue what God really is? It might as well be Puff the Magic Jewy Dragon from their descriptions. I'm supposed to believe that God lives in a mountain and collects foreskins? Gimme a break!
I may not crack the grand mysteries of the universe, but life isn't meaningless. There's reason to believe that the actions of each person do make a difference. I call that faith. I suppose it's easier for me, being that I'm a carpenter and not a lawyer. My work is clean, ethical, and meaningful. I do things right. I am a righteous man.
Chris
I'm a carpenter as well. But we look at life quite differently. I think the Hebrews knew God far better than we do, hence they paid heavier prices for screwing up. Make's sense if you think about it. God does what ever He does regardless of whether we believe or not. Faith in God is not idolatry. It is common sense. By fence walking, we violate the prime tennant of Jesus. Hot or Cold, He can deal with US. Luke warm He spits us out of his mouth. He likes you Chris (besides loves you). Your'e honest. You don't fake anything, don't hide your disdain. You wear your heart on your sleave.
You're Paul...
China Cat Sunflower
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Hey, Paul's a big hero of mine!
I do have a concept of God. I'm a student of Kabbalah. Not foo foo, Madonna Kabbalah. I don't have the ability to put any of that stuff into words, though. Like I said on another thread, as long as it stays metaphysical I'm good. I just don't know how to bring it into the physical without making an idol of it. I strongly believe in providence. Don't know exactly where to file that, but I have ample proof of it from my own life experiences.
Chris
I do have a concept of God. I'm a student of Kabbalah. Not foo foo, Madonna Kabbalah. I don't have the ability to put any of that stuff into words, though. Like I said on another thread, as long as it stays metaphysical I'm good. I just don't know how to bring it into the physical without making an idol of it. I strongly believe in providence. Don't know exactly where to file that, but I have ample proof of it from my own life experiences.
Chris
Belief in things as yet unseen, and hope for things that have yet to be...faith
Faith, Hope and Love, these three, but of these three, the greatest is Love...you're on your way Chris.
Hi Dream,
Can I use Luke 6:35, is Luke's G!d in agreement with Joshua? Is Moses' G!d in agreement with Joshua?
My original thought was to contrast the somewhat blood letting OT with the more peaceful way that Jesus was teaching in the NT. The use Matthew and Joshua was not a link between just those two writers. I did find your commentary interesting, thanks.
Joe
Can I use Luke 6:35, is Luke's G!d in agreement with Joshua? Is Moses' G!d in agreement with Joshua?
My original thought was to contrast the somewhat blood letting OT with the more peaceful way that Jesus was teaching in the NT. The use Matthew and Joshua was not a link between just those two writers. I did find your commentary interesting, thanks.
Joe
Hi Chris,
When I went down to the Christian bookstore and brought a copy of the Bible it came complete with the OT and the NT. Reading through, the OT comes first and leads me assume that it is some kind of foundation for the NT. Sometimes though, it's hard to see the connection. Since I'm a student of Christianity and the Christian scriptures contain the OT and the NT as one book I read it as one.
Just trying so show where my thought is here, not trivializing your comment. thanks
Joe
When I went down to the Christian bookstore and brought a copy of the Bible it came complete with the OT and the NT. Reading through, the OT comes first and leads me assume that it is some kind of foundation for the NT. Sometimes though, it's hard to see the connection. Since I'm a student of Christianity and the Christian scriptures contain the OT and the NT as one book I read it as one.
Just trying so show where my thought is here, not trivializing your comment. thanks
Joe
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
I read the OT and ponder it, but I see where Chris is going here. It is customary for mainstream Christians to see the OT as the foundation to the NT. However, what gets me is what to do with the very clear statements in the NT that Jesus came for the Jews. Yeah, us Gentiles got the message and that's wonderful, but according to the OT and Judaism today, the Gentiles were only bound by the Noahide Laws. We weren't supposed to leave our own ethnic/religious groups and become sort-of Jewish Christians. We were given the message of Jesus and that would have been overlaid on the Noahide Laws and our own traditions. At least, after a lot of thought and study, that was the clearest "answer" I could come up with.
Personally, I see the OT as important for understanding the background history and mythology leading to Jesus. Furthermore, I actually think that many Christians today have inaccurate theological concepts because they have not studied the OT and Jesus' words in the context of Judaic thought, but instead imposed modern Western thinking on these texts. No offense (and I don't think it matters for salvation), but that is just what I find.
That said, I am not Jewish. So I chose to retain/revive the traditions of my own ancestors, but inform them with the Noahide Laws and what I can learn from Judaism, and to follow Christ's message as a Gentile.
Personally, I see the OT as important for understanding the background history and mythology leading to Jesus. Furthermore, I actually think that many Christians today have inaccurate theological concepts because they have not studied the OT and Jesus' words in the context of Judaic thought, but instead imposed modern Western thinking on these texts. No offense (and I don't think it matters for salvation), but that is just what I find.
That said, I am not Jewish. So I chose to retain/revive the traditions of my own ancestors, but inform them with the Noahide Laws and what I can learn from Judaism, and to follow Christ's message as a Gentile.
Dream
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Very respectable point of view, Path of One. All of this stuff takes time to go through. As you learn enough to narrow down the possibilities and throw away the junk answers you sometimes feel like a tired swimmer.
As far as I can tell, these are all written by people with the same basic understanding of what God is. There are many cultural differences that separate us from these in authors in the past, which means there are language hurtles for us. Some training in any second language is very helpful, because it sharpens your intuition about the translated Christian texts. More importantly, you've got to have some Jewish cultural and historical knowledge before you can understand even John 3:16 in depth. Without a basic storyline of Genesis - Exodus and knowledge of Leviticus, some of Numbers and Deuteronomy you can find the gospels and Paul's letters to be quite the head-banging (or mystical) experience. Things just don't work together without it. Everything you read in the Tanach helps when reading the Christian authors, because the gospels and letters are completely saturated with Torah allusions, references, utterances, ideology, arguments, and decrees.
China Cat Sunflower
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That's true, but when one examines those Torah allusions within their own context one finds that the NT material is an adaptation which often bears little direct correlation to the original context. That's fine so long as we understand that just because the NT authors strung their story around the pegs of older Jewish themes, that doesn't prove a connection between their thesis and the original intent of the material they borrowed.
Chris
Hey Path. Enjoyed the comradarie with you and yours and me and mine.
The irony of the NT is that we miss the simple but profound statement from Jesus, that no one can erase, not even the root faith and those that follow it. Jesus may have originally come for the Jews, but knew before hand he would be rejected. But everytime in the NT, his message was gladly received by non Jews, who were astounded at the fact that God loved them as well as the chosen.
For example, Jesus met the samaritan woman at the well, and told her the secret to life. He then explained how the gentile was being "grafted" onto the tree of life (that is Jesus), and even the indiginous branches that did not produce fruit would be cut away and burned as chaff. Then there is the woman who refused to let the Lord dismiss her, by stating that even the dogs get the scraps that the children let fall from the master's table. Jesus' response was amazement, at such a powerful faith! Finally Jesus declared that a prophet and hero is welcome everywhere but home.
What's more, the strength of faith in God between Jew and gentile is quite different, with the gentiles showing greater grasp of faith than the "people of the law". In reality, it seems as if the Jews are mind knowledgeable of God, while gentiles are "heart" knowledgeable.
Like so many of us, the heart and the head don't always have a clear connection, so both miss something important from the other.
One other thing I thought about. Israel wasn't only Judeac. At one time there were 12 tribes. The others being scattered became lost, and when they saw the Lord, remembered. the tribe of Juda kept the vestiges of their dignity even until 70AD, before themselves being scattered. Why they were able to maintain their collective identity for 2000 years, with no country is a mystery, but with it came a certain arrogance and pride, that can be irksome to enraging.
But the commandments (Noahidic), are meant to be for all, including Jews. The Hebrew commandments, were written on tablets of stone, as an addition (I guess because the Noahidic commandments written in every man's heart just wasn't enough for some people)...
If Jesus was concerned about a western flavor, then why did He reach out to the west? Maybe because we had no bad habits concerning laws, rituals, and the like (which and plug up the channel between Head and Heart)?
Just a thought.
v/r
Q
That's because you're trying to read it like a history book, or a scientific journal, instead of what it was intended for, namely to get one thinking about the relationship between God and Man.
Would you analyze a "love story" in this manner? Well, you are.
v/r
Josh
China Cat Sunflower
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I think adaptive, or micro religion is good. Christianity started out that way. If the Christ, or Logos is a universal principle there's no reason we have to be bound to the stuff Paul and the Gospelers ripped. I agree that it's important to study the foundational material, but, do we really HAVE to all play the same creative anachronism?
Christianity owes its success to it's cultural flexibility. If you read the later books in the NT like James and such, it's clear that what the earliest Christian communities were trying to achieve was a mutually beneficial social structure like the Jews had, except theirs was to be more egalitarian. Theirs would be trans-ethnic and Hellenistic. They would do away with the inner and outer court and have one big tent where anyone was welcome. That idea forms the sociological core of Paul's ideals and creates his unique trans-ethnic appeal.
Chris
Christianity owes its success to it's cultural flexibility. If you read the later books in the NT like James and such, it's clear that what the earliest Christian communities were trying to achieve was a mutually beneficial social structure like the Jews had, except theirs was to be more egalitarian. Theirs would be trans-ethnic and Hellenistic. They would do away with the inner and outer court and have one big tent where anyone was welcome. That idea forms the sociological core of Paul's ideals and creates his unique trans-ethnic appeal.
Chris
China Cat Sunflower
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How would you examine similar ancient documents from a set of cultures and traditions unknown to you? What's a person supposed to do, accept uncritically a set of built in biases called "belief"? There are certain critical appreciation skills relevant to a particular genre. A certain amount of voluntary immersion goes along with that. But nothing gets a free pass.
Chris
Dream
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That is the real crux of the matter. That's the sort of thing I'm interested in. Most material that's written about this subject only considers the pros for Christianity, or else discusses the woes of modern Christianity -- which means it doesn't address the fundamental questions. Do you have any book ideas for a hardened heretic like myself?
If an open mind is used while reading holy text, then, yes Chris. If pre-conceived notions are brought into the equation (sp), then what we get is a colored perspective of what we are observing. And that is what you are doing, yes? Observing...
China Cat Sunflower
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Dream
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Hey, Quahom1. When I called myself a 'Hardened heretic' I honored myself more than I should, but it was only in jest. Certainly I have a lot of respect for those who have died for being honest about what they think. I'm a believer that found out that Christianity has changed quite a lot from its original form.
China_Cat has brought up the biggest issue with Christianity and also his most interesting objection:
China_Cat has brought up the biggest issue with Christianity and also his most interesting objection:
When I said that I'd like to see a book, Quahom1, I meant that works I've seen that criticize Christianity tend to deal with modern Christianity and focus upon its weaknesses, either its ideology or some currently disgusting practice. Critics tend to spend a lot of effort pounding away at money grubbing clerics, the illogic of trinity or other new and winking doctrines. They do not treat the original Christian arguments. China_Cat mentioned problems with the original context of scripture quoted in 'NT material', which is where my interest lies.