Do these commands.....

[China Cat Sunflower]

OK, I'm familiar with the Balaam story, I've looked at the material in Deuteronomy, Jeremiah, Romans and Corinthians, and I still don't have a clue what the point is. Romans 2 is part of the preamble leading up to Romans 3 where Paul makes point number one: Pragmatically, Jews aren't any more lawful than anyone else.

Chris

 

[Dream]

What is your faith, and what is your purpose Dream? I'd like to know.

But I'm willing to entertain arguements contrary, particularly to Modern Christianity And I think this is an issue that both you and Chris have difficulties dealing with. So, let's debate/discuss/contemplate...ok?

{
Your original question was "...so when are your going to relieve me of my pain?"

Which is it?

I think you are deliberately mucking up the works here. Not cool.
}

I appreciate your honesty, however when I said that arguing about these things with you might be emotionally taxing I was being honest with you, too. I really am a believer who has found out that Christianity has changed a lot. Your point of view is that I'm having difficulty dealing with issues with your beliefs, but you don't know much about what I believe. I have shared a few things, but I don't see the point in arguing them across. On the other hand, Seattlegal brought up an interesting concept called 'Subjectivity' in another thread, which was completely out of the ballpark and messed with me a little. She's always floating like the butterfly -- stinging like the bee, and I want revenge. Also, I know from experience its possible to waste a lot of time looking through useless information, and she's said that she has gone through a lot of study to get to where she's at. I believe that. Perhaps she can save me some time and 'Pain' if she will start laying down some devastating words?

 

[Dream]

Romans 2 is part of the preamble leading up to Romans 3 where Paul makes point number one: Pragmatically, Jews aren't any more lawful than anyone else.

Maybe, however it seems like he's laying down the basics of what it means to be Jewish in a way that gentiles will relate to. "What is the advantage in being a Jew?" A Jewish person is supposed to strive to keep the law ideally and strive to change inwardly, so Paul is explaining that as background information -- not a major revelation. It is a necessary part of his argument of how Gentiles are added to the household of faith - not as Jews but not as strangers either. The argument falls apart though if Matthew and Joshua are not talking about the same God.

 

[seattlegal]

OK, I'm familiar with the Balaam story, I've looked at the material in Deuteronomy, Jeremiah, Romans and Corinthians, and I still don't have a clue what the point is. Romans 2 is part of the preamble leading up to Romans 3 where Paul makes point number one: Pragmatically, Jews aren't any more lawful than anyone else.


Chris

Conscience (subjectivity.)

Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

2 Corinthians 3
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

The Spirit, Not the Letter

4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Glory of the New Covenant

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.​

 

[seattlegal]

I appreciate your honesty, however when I said that arguing about these things with you might be emotionally taxing I was being honest with you, too. I really am a believer who has found out that Christianity has changed a lot. Your point of view is that I'm having difficulty dealing with issues with your beliefs, but you don't know much about what I believe. I have shared a few things, but I don't see the point in arguing them across. On the other hand, Seattlegal brought up an interesting concept called 'Subjectivity' in another thread, which was completely out of the ballpark and messed with me a little. She's always floating like the butterfly -- stinging like the bee, and I want revenge. Also, I know from experience its possible to waste a lot of time looking through useless information, and she's said that she has gone through a lot of study to get to where she's at. I believe that. Perhaps she can save me some time and 'Pain' if she will start laying down some devastating words?

You also said you were a dispatcher. So when are you going to dispatch me? The subjectivity angle you took was threatening, but you merely introduced it. Why not pull out the ol' Blade of Silk and get swishing?

Dream, I'm more into transformation, rather than slicing and dicing, as per my above post.

A Jewish person is supposed to strive to keep the law ideally and strive to change inwardly,

You've got the idea.

 

[seattlegal]

.....come from the same place?

From the NASB

Joshua 10:40
Thus Joshua struck all the land, the hill country and the Negev and the lowland and the slopes and all their kings. He left no survivor, but he utterly destroyed all who breathed, just as the Lord, the G!d of Israel, had commanded.

Matt 5:44
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Joe

From hearts of stone vs. hearts of flesh....

 

[seattlegal]

Also, I know from experience its possible to waste a lot of time looking through useless information, and she's said that she has gone through a lot of study to get to where she's at. I believe that. Perhaps she can save me some time and 'Pain' if she will start laying down some devastating words?

Hey, Dream, sure I've studied, but I study because I enjoy it. I don't think it would be correct to say that my studies alone have gotten me to where I am, though, except perhaps from the perspective of becoming somewhat aware of the scope of all the stuff that I don't know.

 

[seattlegal]

Maybe, however it seems like he's laying down the basics of what it means to be Jewish in a way that gentiles will relate to. "What is the advantage in being a Jew?" A Jewish person is supposed to strive to keep the law ideally and strive to change inwardly, so Paul is explaining that as background information -- not a major revelation. It is a necessary part of his argument of how Gentiles are added to the household of faith - not as Jews but not as strangers either. The argument falls apart though if Matthew and Joshua are not talking about the same God.

You asked me to break out my sword. What do you think about this?

Jesus said:

Matt 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”​

Taking this in conjunction with the scriptures from Ezekiel 36:26 and 2 Corinthians 3, where it speaks about the "ministry of life" and the "ministry of death?"

Dream, you have prompted me think pretty deeply about this. Thank you.

 

[Joedjr]

Hi seattlegal,

From hearts of stone vs. hearts of flesh....

Interesting contrast between the old and the new. Does the question still remain? Hearts of stone vs. hearts of flesh, do these come from the same place?

Joe

 

[Quahom1]

I appreciate your honesty, however when I said that arguing about these things with you might be emotionally taxing I was being honest with you, too. I really am a believer who has found out that Christianity has changed a lot. Your point of view is that I'm having difficulty dealing with issues with your beliefs, but you don't know much about what I believe. I have shared a few things, but I don't see the point in arguing them across. On the other hand, Seattlegal brought up an interesting concept called 'Subjectivity' in another thread, which was completely out of the ballpark and messed with me a little. She's always floating like the butterfly -- stinging like the bee, and I want revenge. Also, I know from experience its possible to waste a lot of time looking through useless information, and she's said that she has gone through a lot of study to get to where she's at. I believe that. Perhaps she can save me some time and 'Pain' if she will start laying down some devastating words?

Touche. Now En Garde. Christianity hasn't changed one iota. People have. The Commandments have not changed. Our perceptions of them have. God does not change. Man does. I think that is what Seattle Gal was pointing out. As far as your beliefs, well in order for others to discuss with you issues of import, you really aught to bring your beliefs to the forefront. Otherwise we get a skewed view of you and can't answer you to your satisfaction (we can't even come close to trying).

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

From hearts of stone vs. hearts of flesh....

Ecclesiasties comes immediately to mind here. There is a time and place for everything under the sun...

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Conscience (subjectivity.)

Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

2 Corinthians 3
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

The Spirit, Not the Letter

4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Glory of the New Covenant

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.​

Thanks. I understand what you're saying. I don't really understand what Dream is getting at. Since you do maybe you could break it down for me?

Chris

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Dream,

Are you one of those neo-originalist re enactors? IOW, are you most interested in some sort of pristine Judeo-Christian neo-Israelitism with extra emphasis on the foundational Hebrew mythology? Like Q said, it would help to know where you're coming from.

 

[seattlegal]

Thanks. I understand what you're saying. I don't really understand what Dream is getting at. Since you do maybe you could break it down for me?

Chris

Turning a curse into a blessing...

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Yes, right. But I don't understand the concern over Joshua and Matthew having the same God. I'm pretty sure the whole Bible is talking about the same God. But a composite figure derived from every single God concept in the Bible is hopelessly contradictory, in my view. There has to be some element of common sense, some nagging little voice of pesky objectivity which says that the descriptions of God as genocidal ethno purist in the foundational myths are not to be taken without a large, cow lick size block of salt.

Paul may be using Jewish themes, but his theological thesis in Romans essentially removes the idea of ethnic bias on God's part. Israel, along with all other nations, now fits within God's larger plan.

In Paul's formulation, Christ supersedes and absorbs, or re enfolds Israel back into the larger plan.

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

Yes, right. But I don't understand the concern over Joshua and Matthew having the same God. I'm pretty sure the whole Bible is talking about the same God. But a composite figure derived from every single God concept in the Bible is hopelessly contradictory, in my view. There has to be some element of common sense, some nagging little voice of pesky objectivity which says that the descriptions of God as genocidal ethno purist in the foundational myths are not to be taken without a large, cow lick size block of salt.

Paul may be using Jewish themes, but his theological thesis in Romans essentially removes the idea of ethnic bias on God's part. Israel, along with all other nations, now fits within God's larger plan.

In Paul's formulation, Christ supersedes and absorbs, or re enfolds Israel back into the larger plan.

Chris

You got kids right? Do you treat them or discipline them the same? Or do you make the discipline fit the situation and the age of the child at the time? Think about it. Same God, different time, different age group of mankind. Notice something about God and punishments for man? Early on God was harsh, man knew God more intimately, and did not complain about their punishments. Later on, God is fuzzy and God is not so harsh in disciplining man. Why? Maybe man doesn't know God so well as in the past.

Today? Man is dis-owning God altogether (that's going to go over real well in the long run). But there are enough of man that hold to God (if there are even 10 righghteous men, I would spare the city), that He says, "I'll wait awhile longer in the hopes that a few more come to me."

Chris. This world is killing itself. You see it as well as me. There is no stopping it, only slowing it down. Your kids, my kids...can they buy a house like you and I have? Hell no. Can they get jobs like you and I have had despite their massive education and degrees? Hell no. Charities are struggling to get support because people (families) are struggling to support themselves.

Go to church...hell no! pray to God...hell no! Give up self satisfaction...hell no! It is all about ME (as in the individual). That never worked in history, and will not work now.

What will work is this. "Hey neighbor! What do you need?" As soon as that mentality takes hold, you will see your miracle. And I suspect you will see God in the making. But it has to start somewhere...

As for me and mine, we will serve the Lord...

v/r

Joshua

 

[juantoo3]

I cannot find a 1000 year rule in Isaiah.

I suppose I must stand corrected if one holds to Isaiah being literal.

But passages like:

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

and a whole lot of Isaiah, especially chapters 2-4, sure provide a prequel to the much later book of Revelations and the Millenial Rule found there.

 

[seattlegal]

Yes, right. But I don't understand the concern over Joshua and Matthew having the same God. I'm pretty sure the whole Bible is talking about the same God. But a composite figure derived from every single God concept in the Bible is hopelessly contradictory, in my view. There has to be some element of common sense, some nagging little voice of pesky objectivity which says that the descriptions of God as genocidal ethno purist in the foundational myths are not to be taken without a large, cow lick size block of salt.

Paul may be using Jewish themes, but his theological thesis in Romans essentially removes the idea of ethnic bias on God's part. Israel, along with all other nations, now fits within God's larger plan.

In Paul's formulation, Christ supersedes and absorbs, or re enfolds Israel back into the larger plan.

Chris

Jesus said:

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.​

Is a heart of stone a pure heart? Minds blinded by a veil don't see (understand) God well. (see 2 Corinthians 3:13-18 above.) We humans tend to fill in the gaps in our perceptions with our own desires and rationalzations, hence the difference between perceiving God with a heart of stone as contrasted with a heart of flesh, or a "pure heart." {Whatever that is supposed to mean.}

However, it is possible to be blinded by a bright light. In such a case, the assistance of someone with a veil might be handy. (Turning a curse into a blessing.)

So, when faced with being blinded by bright light, do you trust the person with the veil, or go it alone and risk being tripped up the the person with the veil? Hmmm...

 

[juantoo3]

What will work is this. "Hey neighbor! What do you need?" As soon as that mentality takes hold, you will see your miracle. And I suspect you will see God in the making. But it has to start somewhere...

The bad part Q, is that it usually takes a catastrophe to bring people together and humble them enough to get to this point.

And human nature being what it is, as soon as the storm is passed, people go back to doing what they seem to do...

The attitudes of the generations are changing. Life in the city makes people soft, lazy and apathetic. There likely have always been the predatory among us who take advantage of others and find ways to justify such behavior to themselves.

Country folk in general tend to interrelate more, and interdepend more. Their survival depended on it. Modern conveniences, bombardment with commercials (gratuitous consumption) and amorality (sexual perversion and extreme violence), overwhelming exposure to criminal activity and a list of other ills contribute to people holing up and isolating themselves.

In the country, I knew my neighbors. Not intimately, but we spoke and said hello, and watched each other's property when one was away.

I moved to the city, 30 miles away, and I've seen one neighbor twice, and have never seen the other neighbor. Not that I haven't tried, but I'm not going to bust any doors down just to meet them either. There is a paranoia in the city that largely evaporates in the country. Until that paranoia disappears, I don't think we will see a return to the neighborly "good ol' days."

 

[Quahom1]

The bad part Q, is that it usually takes a catastrophe to bring people together and humble them enough to get to this point.

And human nature being what it is, as soon as the storm is passed, people go back to doing what they seem to do...

The attitudes of the generations are changing. Life in the city makes people soft, lazy and apathetic. There likely have always been the predatory among us who take advantage of others and find ways to justify such behavior to themselves.

Country folk in general tend to interrelate more, and interdepend more. Their survival depended on it. Modern conveniences, bombardment with commercials (gratuitous consumption) and amorality (sexual perversion and extreme violence), overwhelming exposure to criminal activity and a list of other ills contribute to people holing up and isolating themselves.

In the country, I knew my neighbors. Not intimately, but we spoke and said hello, and watched each other's property when one was away.

I moved to the city, 30 miles away, and I've seen one neighbor twice, and have never seen the other neighbor. Not that I haven't tried, but I'm not going to bust any doors down just to meet them either. There is a paranoia in the city that largely evaporates in the country. Until that paranoia disappears, I don't think we will see a return to the neighborly "good ol' days."

I suppose that is true, since I live in the country and depend on my "neighbors" miles away, to look out for my well being, as I tend to look out for theirs. But I lived for years in the city (in appartment complexes), and opened house to potluck dinner Fridays with games and such, and the same mentality pervaded the halls of the complex, after time...so I have to call "check" on that one Juan. It is about people, not space.