Shinto!!

Discussion in 'Eastern Religions and Philosophies' started by 17th Angel, May 30, 2008.

  1. c0de

    c0de Vassal

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    Wil + TK


    @ Will


    The rule in the real world is, if you are outnumbered: RUN!
    Escape and Evade dude... forget fancy martial arts at that point.
    You do not know which one of those guys could be carrying
    a concealed knife... And as far as knife fighting styles go, I
    think the most effective system is the one they use in inner-city
    prisons... I think its called the stealthy-shiv-stab-you-in-the
    -kidneys-when-you-aint-lookin-ryu.



    @ TK

    Well, the Chinese straight sword styles also focuses more on piercing
    strikes rather than slashing, but the reach of the saber is longer I think
    this is an enormous advantage. But as for comparing the actual method/styles...
    I think its about the individual holding the blade and not the other way around.
    Fencing however can definitely hold its own against any eastern weapon system.
    (I'd still pick the Katana though, just because...)

    btw, thanks for the Kurada beach vid man, i favourite'd it immediatly :)
    there are some other great ones too in the related vids section
     
  2. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    I agree.

    For fun, this is modern kendo vs. fencing. The fencing guy is good.
    YouTube - Kendo vs Fencing

    I want kendo to become an Olympic sport some day like Judo. Kendo is not like the traditional Japanese sword arts, footwork is different, although derived from it, fyi.

    TK
     
  3. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    Well run first.

    An option to fight is, if one is getting chased by like 200 guys and cornered, you get into the narrowest hallway possible and deal with 2-3, ideally 1 person(s) at a time. With a machine gun, they`d think twice if not wearing body armor. If bodyarmored you gotta hope you disable or knock people out so that they`d stack up on each other and get in the way of each other. This sounds familiar right? But I gotta say, that seems like the last option when getting chased around by hundreds of people.

    I saw a water bird with a long beak do this against a swarm of seagulls once. The water bird made sure that he could only be attacked from 1 direction, then he pointed his beak in that direction. It was cool to see the strategy in action.

    TK
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.

    Oh, absolutely! Whilst the sword is common to the world, the sword and kenjutsu is distinctly Japanese, whilst iaijutsu (draw and cut in one fluid movement) is uniquely Japanese.

    Well the Japanese were 'imports' were they not, from the standpoint of the aboriginal Ainu? But you've got a point. I saw one sensei discussing the origins of weapons in agricultural tools. Also the similarity of footwork in some sword schools compared to the shuffle of a farmer hoeing a field.

    The trouble with the West is that we never stuck with one style and evolved it to its maximum potential as did Japan with the sword. We continually switched sword types, not only as metallurgy improved but according to exchanges with neighbour cultures.

    However, I once knew an old Norfolk Boy who used to make willow hand-guards he insisted were used by men and boys training to use the quarterstaff. So I think we did have a tradition of sword and also stick arts, but we lost them chasing the novelty of the next new thing.

    A stout stick, in the hands of a capable man, will put a sword to shame. Also, the dynamics of a stick, which is one piece through-and-through, can in some cases be superior to a sword, which is a metal blade held by pegs in a hilt. It's to do with the physics/dynamics of the peg that holds the sword in the hilt. It was suggested this was why some swordsmen preferred using a wooden stick against a blade (bloomin' risky, though!).

    Thomas
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Well, I have great respect for the volley fire of the British musket. Even during WW1, the rate of fire of the British infantryman led his enemies to believe he was armed with a semi-automatic weapon.

    Then there's drill! In the Peninsula War, the performance of the Light Division under the legendary Black Bob Crauford, cut off and surrounded by French cavalry, was an exemplar of 'fire and manouvre' and is regarded as one of the best examples of combined tactics and timing of Crauford, who brought them out with hardly a loss.

    We-e-e-e-l ... I agree that jump kicks have become the stuff of Hollywood. A jujutsu man told me the only time they were used was by men on foot to take a man out of the saddle. And Judo but that old 'throw someone twice your own weight' only works if that someone walks into it blind and off balance.

    Then again, aikido has 'read world' application ... and what I've seen of aikijutsu is devastating.

    My brother!

    True Story:
    One day my daughter came home from work, and as she walked into the lounge, I was walking out. One of my sticks was standing by the door — just a stout, bokken-length stick I'd picked up in a wood. I scooped up the stick, swung and stopped half an inch from her skull. "See that?" I asked. "Most people would do that in two or three moves, but not the Japanese, one fluid move. Brilliant, isn't it? Such art, such economy, such beauty!"
    What I did not realise was that she didn't know I was in the house. I scared the living doodads out of her. She still tells her friends about it.

    Thomas
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    I followed a discussion on a US martial arts site among serving police officers, so guys with experience of both worlds. The final agreement was, the best skill in a fight (clearing a house was the topic under discussion) was to send in the dogs, and stand back ...:eek:

    I recall as a kid the horror of reading about a 5th-dan Karate guy who went to someone's assistance and was killed — by a drunk.

    Thomas
     
  7. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    I've never considered the Shinto influence on the development of Kempo before...
     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    I've read of a similar samurai technique, you pass the guy in the street, then as he passes, tip his hat forward over his head, and cut him down.

    I would argue otherwise. Some ryu use very long swords, some ryu use comparatively short blades — my iai blade length is determined by the reach of my arm for a comfortable draw. Length doesn't matter, it's have you got the small spherical pendula it takes to 'get in and do the business'.

    But stabbing with a straight blade means the blade is, for a time, stuck in your opponent's body, which is a huge disadvantage if multiple opponents. Whereas with the curved blade it's primarily slice 'n' dice — the blade is free of the body (although a stabbing technique was one of my 'favourite five' at demos). I think for that reason the curved cutter is better all-round than the straight stabber. Again, stabbing multiple opponents requires a piston action, whereas the katana can flow gracefully from one to the next ...

    Re East and West ... don't know, but I will brag at this point and say my brother in law, now 7th dan kyoshi, is the only Brit to reach the finals of the Japan Kendo Championships. He was up against a Japanese, and there was no way a Brit was going to win, but it was a split decision, and for a time — 15 minutes — he was famous in Japan.

    Thomas
     
  9. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    Hmm.. well there are many theories on the origin of the Japanese. There is a theory that a group of Ainu came from the north, invaded the south, forgot they came from the north, and then invaded the north again. Then there`s the mainstream theory that the main culture came(started) from the south (most likely the horse and bow people, and possibly the bronze or iron age IMO) from a foreign country. I`ve even heard a theory from a Chinese guy in the US that Japan was sort of a resort for Chinese aristocrats, who defected and decided to stay in Japan. There`s the Sumerian theory. And all of this could be all true, I think.

    I personally view Japan as the ancient America of Asians starting from historic times. When someone wants to leave mainland Asia, there`s only one place you can go if you don`t want to go south or Siberia, and not be bothered by many people. And that is Japan.

    I read somewhere (I might be a bit shaky on the numbers..)that Japanese DNA is roughly, 40% Chinese, 30% Korean(mongolian), 20% native, 2%unknown (forgot the 8%). Japanese are mostly born with the Mongolian blue butt birthmark which probably means we are not just Chinese. The 2% unknown.. I suspect DNA like Sumerians.. its a mystery.

    I have purple rims on my eye pupils, and if you look closely they are others like me.

    Absolutely! fyi, My gandma who came from a Samurai family told me blades got rough edged after like 2 kills and after about 5 kills the sword would reach its limits in terms of cutting(this signify`s how tough people are when they are alive because I was told that dead things couldn`t do the same to the J sword). So from there on, I assume it was about stabbing people. So its nothing like the Samurai movies like ridding 50 bad guys in clean slashes etc..

    An oak stick is absolutely lethal when put in hands of swinging experts. My point with the stick was somewhat, I personally think maybe even in the stone age, whomever was in Japan was probably starting the origins of Japanese swordsmanship. It might have been the same for everyone on the planet, and I think stick cultures could have started even that far back in history.

    TK

    p.s. I like the fact that some prominent figures in history held sticks or talked about it.
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    A famous master said the first rule of swordsmanship is: Don't get hit.

    Yagyu Shinkage Ryu teaches something like 'circling crows' from the way a flock of birds spirals on take-off or landing. So when one against millions, you circle, they're surrounded! You keep moving, so they can never form up against you, don't let them surround you, and then pick 'em off, one by one.

    Psychology helps — if fighting a hundred, 90 will hesitate to let the courageous 10 rush in first. Not everyone's a battle-mad hero.

    Yagyu Munenori was riding escort with Tokugawa Ieyasu at the 2nd Battle of Osaka (1612?). They were over a mile from the 'front' when the party was jumped by a group of the enemy, some kind of deep penetration fighting patrol. Panic ensued, as no-one expected to have to fight, I'm not even sure everyone was in armour.

    Munenori was, and true to his calling he was ever vigilant. He immediately attacked by running across the enemy front, and began to turn and corral the enemy force. In a matter of moments he took out seven men, all in full armour. This is a prodigious feat of swordsmanship (modern films make it look a doddle), an almost unprecedented feat and I think the only one recorded historically by eye-witnesses.

    The speed and devastating effect of his riposte allowed the party to recover their wits (zanshin), organise a defence of Tokugawa and attack the foe, but he had already broken their spirit.

    Thomas
     
  11. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    Whats up! Seatlegal :).

    Kempo is a derivative of what the Dharma brought to China from India. Karate is mostly likely to be derived from Kempo, they are from the same buddhist origins, and kempo means (fist style/way/law). Ken(m) literally means fist. Karate (air/sky hands), fyi.

    I don`t know the extent to how Shinto influenced kempo, but if you see any buffed up guy from Japan who looks macho like a karate guy, who swings the sword extremely well with both hands, looks like could cut through steel, well thats a kempo guy influenced by Shinto, because the karate(buddhist) guys don`t originally swing the sword like that. They punch with both fists as evident with some Indian weapons, or maybe sometimes a long staff weapon, or one handed sword.

    I am yet to find out about the extent of how well Samurai`s could utilize the sword, like Karate experts utilize their hands. As I`ve seen Karate guys cut through bottles with a chop. One Chinese guy cut through 12 pencils with a small knife. Well, that seems to be something that is not emphasized in J swordsmandship, probably because a beginner in J swordsmanship with a real sword is rumored to be the equivalent as a 8th dan Karate expert. Kind of like a kid with a bazooka might take out a military expert and vise visa.

    TK
     
  12. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    Wow........ you have the rights to brag.


    All the Yagyu experts were probably mentally prepared and fit enough to take down hundreds of soldiers if not thousands, especially in the mind. The most recent person who was trained to do this, was Takeda Sokaku ( the real last old-Samurai ) from early 1900`s and the founder of Aikido. Sokaku would knock out people with wet towels, he was invited by Ted Roosevelt to the United States.

    TK
     
  13. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    I was thinking more in terms of techniques, rather than feats. (Compare the various animal forms from China to the more synthesized movements touched upon by Thomas. Two totally different approaches.)
     
  14. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    Yes they are, to an extent, its the difference between Japan, and buddhism as an import.

    But I think it also has something to do with maturity of the two countries. China is 4000 years old whereas Japan is 2000 years old. Based on what I see in the Chinese grappling styles, I wouldn`t be surprised if at one time some Chinese fought like Samurai`s in the old days, or like Aikido, as the way martial art looks and is derived has something to do with similar principles and depends on personality as well.

    Who knows, most kung-fu seems like a dance these days, Japanese martial arts may not be as practical in 2000 years from now as knowledge and the essence does get lost over the years. Whereas America might have the preserved arts 2000 years from now.

    In that sense what we see in Japan is an assimilated(distilled J style) version of the passed on knowledge.

    TK
     
  15. c0de

    c0de Vassal

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    TK + Thomas



    @ TK


    LOL that is the video I watched a long time ago which got me
    interested in fencing. its funny cuz I am actually starting fencing
    classes next week :) (along with kendo classes, that'll be fun...
    .....in a painful kinda way)





    @ Thomas



    [​IMG]

    ... clearly she needs a touch up on the old spidey-sense


    Trust me I wish they did as most of my formal experience is in TaeKwonDo and my kicks are naturally high... The only good thing about some kicks is that you only need to land one, and its game over. A spinning back kick for example connects your heel, with his temple (instant knock-out). But the problem is that in a real fight I wouldn't even attempt to lift my foot off the ground unless my opponent is already tipsy or there is blood in his eyes, or he's just really inexperienced...

    Recently, I figured out that punching was not my strong suit as my wrists are narrower then most (high agility for weapons, but low dexterity) so I was forced into developing an abbreviated style for myself. And in my research, I found out that, punching with a closed fist isnt really a good technique for anyone... and started developing an open palm striking technique. So now I don't even need hand wraps, let alone gloves for working on the punching bag. The only closed fist punch I throw now is a left hook aimed at the temple.


    Well, as I am sure you already know, Miyamoto Musashi defeated his greatest opponent with a bokken... that he carved out of a branch on his way to the duel no less...


    The second rule is probably do not let your sword touch metal (of the other guy's sword)... What really annoys me are these sword duels you see in movies with the swords constantly clanking!! What respectable swordmaster would risk damaging his beautiful instrument by constantly banging it against metal? I guess the same principle applies to the wooden weapon defeating a metal one. Just don't let your wooden branch touch his metal stick. simplicity... i like it.




    I am currently undecided as to the level of honor that was subtracted from warfare with the advent of firearms... The only reason why I am as yet undecided, is my love of firearms... There is just something about facing your opponent eye-to-eye before going at it that is lacking in modern warfare...




    These guys clearly were not S.W.A.T... cuz they can't wait to get in and clear a house.... I have to say, if there is one discipline of firearms training that can be considered in the league of martial arts, it is CQB... there is just something about the economy, grace, and focus of the whole synchronization of the whole concept behind clearing corners with a 9mm Mp5...



    No I was talking about the Chinese straight sword used in Kung Fu, I am pretty sure it is smaller in length then the saber. The Japanese definitely have longer blades then the Chinese... case in point: the no-dachi, which was the actual field blade of the samurai. Impossible to field with one hand.



    Definitely agree with that.



    that is brilliant!
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Wow, quite interesting conversation. I'm a friend of the answer when it comes to a street fight...run. Although I've never actually tried it. My typical method is to use my mouth to talk my way out of it, while my feet are moving me slowly out of range.

    Only been in a few altercations in my fifty years...talked my way out of countless ones (the issue is though and no surprise here...it was usually my mouth that got me in trouble in the first place). As far as the few that I did get into I'm somewhere between even and barely ahead, but memories enough to continue to plan on the talking, walking and running response.

    I tried boxing once, but made the mistake of going in the ring with somone who was a lousy instructor...all I saw was a blur every time he got close to me and decided never to play in that arena again.

    I do know a local fellow by the name of Dennis Brown, well known in the Kung Fu circles back in 70-80's
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Hi TK —
    I've a little Judo book somewhere (written around 1900 for Europeans, it's lovely), there's a torn portrait photo of the author stuck in a panel on the cover, in which the author discusses the possibility of a link between England and Japan!

    He was watch a Morris Dance side (hope this makes sense) doing a stick dance, and saw straight away it was a derivation of training kata. When he heard the side was called "Kemp's Men" for reasons long lost, he reckoned there weas a link between 'our' Kemp and 'his' kempo...

    ... probably the most attenuated link I've ever come across, but the book's a little gem, so I won't hear a word said against it!

    Thomas
     
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    And was himself beaten by Muso Gunnosuke Katsuyoshi. The story goes Musashi went up against Katsuyoshi's spear, chopped the head off, and said "what ya gonna do now, big boy?" Like all good samurai, Katsuyoshi withdrew to a Shinto Shrine, and there developed jo-jutsu, shorter than a bo staff ... and went back and beat Musashi.

    Musashi was supposedly beaten by ninja armed with a fan (jessen ... jitten?).

    Unless it's side on, then his metal sword will bend!

    But AArrrgghhhh! I mean OwOwOwowowowowo! That rasping noise when they draw their blades, that stupid, Hollywood, fingernails down the blackboard noise that tells you Mr. Serious Samurai is blunting his blade by rasping it's edge as he draws it! (Ignore the fact that the saya is wood, therefore no such noise really).

    Katanas should sigh from the saya ... When I got my iaito from Japan, the pound (sterling) was up against the yen, so they threw in a really nice tsuba (guard) and some nice sword furniture. "Let's hear your whistle, then!" Was the cry. This meant demonstrating a classic two-hand sky-to-ground cut, and everyone listens to the whistle as it cuts the air. Course, if you're a newbie, or rusty, you can't make it sing, but once you get the hang!

    And, course, if it was a live blade, it cuts the air too fine even for the air to whistle!

    But rattles and rasps! Even my family react with horror now, when they hears it! To me it's as fake as watching Pershing tanks with black crosses painted on 'em rumbling around in war movies! (Band of Brothers was a joy, in that regard)

    Have you seen a film called Gohatto?

    Thomas
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Quick story:
    'Little Robbie' was a friend of a friend. He was a 'Geordie' from Newcastle, an industrial seaport in the North East that's infamously 'hard'. Even the girls wear miniskirts in sub-zero temperatures and are famous for legs the colour of corned beef. Robbie was on the diminutive side (hence the nickname), but not only a Geordie, he was ex-Durham Light Infantry, which in the British Army is a 'hard' outfit. Anyway ...

    Little Robbie lived in a very rough part of London and coming home very late stopped in at an all-night grocers for something. The place, as usual, had its complement of big, leary geezers just ... hanging around. Robbie plonked his stuff on the counter, pulled out a wallet thick with cash and thought, "that, Robbie my boy, was a very stupid thing to do ... " There's martial art — "Rule No.1: Presence of mind" – zanshin, as the budoka say.

    Three paces out of the shop a hand tapped him on the shoulder and a voice said, "Got the time, guy?" Robbie turned round and punched the bloke out without a further moment's thought.

    "Rule No.2: Hit first and hit for keeps"

    Just not my disposition. I'd make a crummy samurai. That's why I ended up more interested in the history of the doings, than doing the doings ... still enjoy doing the doings, though.

    Whatever your top-kiddie warrior: Noble, honourable, gentlemanly, kind, thoughtful ... under all that is one hard SOB who'd 'do' you without batting an eye.

    Thomas
     
  20. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    I wonder why he lived after the duels if he ever lost? Didn`t he kill everyone he beat? or was it not like that?

    Is this true!?? thats fascinating. I didn`t know that!


    btw, come on now, we`d all feel fine if our $500k sword blades clashed with other blades if our lives depended on it.. or maybe not.. but I gotta say most of these swords were constructed to cut through iron helmets, so its unlikely they`d chip with just pushing other swords around.


    TK
     

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