What is a Soul?

[LeoSalinas22]

hey quahom,

to you the soul is the part that gives the personality? is that what you mean?

 

[dauer]

Q,

could you say a little more about the difference between soul and spirit? It sounds like you're expressing the idea that the soul is the individual at their root, who they are, while spirit is more something that enlivens.

edit: Leo beat me to it. :O

 

[Quahom1]

hey quahom,

to you the soul is the part that gives the personality? is that what you mean?

I don't know if "personality" would be the sole (pardon the pun), point of the being. (I mean personalities change, or go dormant, or can be erased). But the history of the individual can not be removed. Sum total of all he/she has been that makes them what they are now. The soul is like a story board, that needs light to shine on it (the spirit), for others to see and remember. Spirit makes the soul come to life, beyond the basic functions of a body, simply surviving.

It is said that the soul can be forgotten, but that the spirit can make the soul to be remembered forever. The soul is the mover, while the spirit keeps the time and the preservation of the soul.

Does that make sense?

 

[LeoSalinas22]

oh yes. perfect sense. thanks quahom. i ask because i am of the mind that the soul as i mentioned earlier IS the person. i don't know what soul means in hebrew (maybe dauer can help here), but from what i understand, soul means the person. everything. the physical and the mind of the person. in other words, its everything rolled into one word. soul. wether it be a human being or an animal. they are the soul. i know. weird, but thanks for responding.

 

[Quahom1]

oh yes. perfect sense. thanks quahom. i ask because i am of the mind that the soul as i mentioned earlier IS the person. i don't know what soul means in hebrew (maybe dauer can help here), but from what i understand, soul means the person. everything. the physical and the mind of the person. in other words, its everything rolled into one word. soul. wether it be a human being or an animal. they are the soul. i know. weird, but thanks for responding.

I agree with that, and note, that the spirit is a funny thing. Not all living beings have it I think. True they have a sum total of their existence but, unless there is a "spirit" within them, they are not remembered.

For example: There are animals, who are born, live and die, and we never know about them. But then again there are animals, that we can never forget, even if they are with us for only a short time (even a moment). What "spark", is it that causes us to remember some (indeed hope to see them again), or lack of, that causes us to not give a second thought to them?

Could possibly be that all have that spark in self, but some "sparks" (spirits) are duller than others, as in not recognizing of the rest. Or, that "spirit" could be missing all together.

Interesting thoughts, to consider.

 

[LeoSalinas22]

Interesting thoughts, to consider.

will do, my friend, thanks again.

 

[17th Angel]

See above. What is a soul? Your perspective, your religion's perspective, it's all good.

-- Dauer

You in your most real self.... *gives a thumbs up*

 

[17th Angel]

Hey Dauer... Just going over Gen.. Could you do me a big favour?

Gen 1:20.. Gen 1:30.... Gen 2:7 In Hebrew... If you translate them... How does that come across In English?

 

[seattlegal]

Hi Dauer,

I was hoping you could help out here. Regarding the creation of souls, I saw reference to the creation of animal as “nephesh chayah” - which is singular = life.

For the creation of human, it's "nephesh chayim” - which is plural = lives.

What is the meaning? Why plural for the human soul? Something about a "heavenly double"?....

Netti,

I can't answer that question for you. It's the nature of Jewish exegesis to draw different meanings and levels of meaning from nuances in text and language so I'm not certain in what you were reading what the author was getting at. It could be that they were getting at many levels of the soul in humans and one level of the soul in animals.

-- Dauer

I have a question: isn't -yim the plural for things usually found in pairs, like two hands, two ears, a pair of socks? (I don't speak Hebrew, it's just a random piece of information floating around in my mind.)

 

[Netti-Netti]

I have a question: isn't -yim the plural for things usually found in pairs, like two hands, two ears, a pair of socks?

Like geese - a generic category. But this does not explain why the same term is not applied to animal life.

I've decided that the Bible is written in Hebrew code and it is silly to be reading English translations of it. I said so to a Rabbi and they agreed.

 

[mee]

its what God teaches, mee. not the bible. big difference. don't praise the bible. praise God. i'm sure you would agree, my friend.

yes that is correct ,God teaches us the truth , the bible is like a letter from God . the bible teaches us many truths


2 timothy 3;16
All Scripture is inspired of God

 

[mee]

SOULThe original-language terms (Heb., ne´phesh [נפ?]; Gr., psy·khe´ [ψυχή]) as used in the Scriptures show "soul" to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.

SPIRIT​

The Greek pneu´ma (spirit) comes from pne´o, meaning "breathe or blow," and the Hebrew ru´ach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ru´ach and pneu´ma, then, basically mean "breath" but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense.

(Compare Hab 2:19; Re 13:15.)

They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit.
(Compare Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, pp. 877-879; Brown, Driver, and Briggs’ Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, pp. 924-926; Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Friedrich, translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol. VI, pp. 332-451.)

All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.


​

Another Hebrew word, nesha·mah´ (Ge 2:7), also means "breath," but it is more limited in range of meaning than ru´ach. The Greek pno·e´ seems to have a similar limited sense (Ac 17:25) and was used by the Septuagint translators to render nesha·mah´.

 

[Netti-Netti]

LeoSalinas22 wrote:

to me the soul is THE person. or it can be an animal. to me, nothing transcendant about it or spiritual. it just reverts to dust.

that is what the bible teaches .

Where's this in the Bible?

 

[17th Angel]

LeoSalinas22 wrote:

to me the soul is THE person. or it can be an animal. to me, nothing transcendant about it or spiritual. it just reverts to dust.




Where's this in the Bible?

Everywhere?

I have only just raised a question to the hebrew master, my dawg, my bro! my haimish! Dauer... post 28.. http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/156693-post28.html These are but a -few- where they use the word soul... So I am waiting to see what Dauer can tell me about these from the original language..

 

[Netti-Netti]

Everywhere?

I'd be interested in one citation that says there's nothing transcendent about the soul and that it will revert to dust.

 

[dauer]

Alex,

I'm not fluent enough in Hebrew to translate a passage word-for-word. The grammar gets me. I'm studying with some software now that teaches hebrew grammar and will soon be learning the different binyanim which are basically fixed ways the verbs can be structured to make them passive,active,reflexive and so on. However biblical hebrew grammar varies a bit from modern and classical hebrew grammar and I'm not sure if this software gets into that. Is there something specific from those passages that you wanted to know about? In 1:30 it's nefesh chayah. In 2:7 it's nishmat chayim and later nefesh chayah. Nefesh and neshamah are two different words for soul or alternatively refer to two different levels of the soul. That could be the nuance that netti netti was bringing up earlier. Nefesh is the part of the soul that's a counterpart to physicality, to the passions and basic impulses. Neshamah is more connected to the intellect. The more obvious discrepancy between all of those passages you presented imo is that the tetragrammaton is introduced beginning in 2:4. Previously the word Elohim was being used and YHWH is absent. In 2:4 YHWH Elohim starts being used. At one level, Judaism understands each of these names, YHWH and Elohim, to refer to different Divine attributes. YHWH is associated with mercy. Elohim is associated with justice. But there are still any number of ways the passages could be taken depending on the level at which they're approached.


Seattle,

-im is masculine plural. -ayim is dual and can be either masculine or feminine.

Netti,

I think, being written in a language in an entirely different family whose roots contain very different meanings than the English ones that's very true in a sense. It's hard to find accurate translations of words. There aren't always counterparts. However, I don't think it's a bad thing to look at translations so long as the Hebrew is referred to for clarification and the English is not considered authoritative. But, I only think that's true if the Torah is seen as a Hebrew text. If a translation in another language is considered authoritative I don't think it's so important to do so. For me, the Hebrew is central and where I turn for clarification on a passage.

-- Dauer

 

[Netti-Netti]

SOULThe original-language terms (Heb., ne´phesh [נפ?];

SPIRIT​

....the Hebrew ru´ach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ru´ach and pneu´ma, then, basically mean "breath" ....

Another Hebrew word, nesha·mah´ (Ge 2:7), also means "breath," but it is more limited in range of meaning than ru´ach. The Greek pno·e´ seems to have a similar limited sense (Ac 17:25) and was used by the Septuagint translators to render nesha·mah´.
​

It seems spirit and soul are different things even though they seem to share some properties.

Mee, why are you explaining "soul" in terms of "spirit"? Just because they are both invisible?

 

[dauer]

Well, the word nefesh is used in a number of places that could be taken as referring to living things or probably more accurately, breathing things. If it's taken to mean soul though, it could be referring to breathing things as souls. There's another passage where it says that the nefesh is in the blood and that is why blood is not consumed but instead is supposed to be returned to the earth.

 

[dauer]

ruach is sometimes translated as spirit. The holy spirit for example is a translation of ruach hakodesh which is taken to refer to a specific state rather than an entity within Judaism.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Well, the word nefesh is used in a number of places that could be taken as referring to living things or probably more accurately, breathing things. If it's taken to mean soul though, it could be referring to breathing things as souls. There's another passage where it says that the nefesh is in the blood and that is why blood is not consumed but instead is supposed to be returned to the earth.

I believe the term "blood" designates 'life substance.' But that could mean physical life - not the soul. Likely because the physical body is material substance whereas soul is not.