Namaste path,
thank you for the post.
Hi, Vaj and namaste-
are you are saying that the individual is not as important as the group, the groups feelings (i.e. their desire to avoid pain) take precedence over the individuals feelings (i.e. their desire to avoid pain) and for this reason a being should not commit suicide?
In this particular case, yes. Minimizing suffering would mean that one being suffering is better than several dozen suffering. Particularly when the being who is suicidal is generally able to be healed with patience, medical support, and time. I argue for fixing the social system to allow this and to prevent severe depression to begin with, rather than simply accepting suicide. To accept suicide is to abandon both the group and the individual in their pain, rather than to fix what is broken.
Suicide for particular culture-bound reasons that are socially acceptable is still not the best option to me, but I put it in a different category of behavior. I have been assuming we are discussing suicide in first world modern societies. There are many other types of suicide in other times and cultures that have different social results.
what if there is no healing available, no cure so to speak?
Generally, there are preventative measures (socially) and cures (socially). It is quite rare that this is not the case, but in those cases, I would consider it euthanasia and not suicide. I think in such cases as severe chronic pain for which the patient attempts to find palliative care and is unable to withstand such pain, euthanasia should be an option and this should be something that the family can work through together, just as the case with terminal illnesses. But I do think that the unselfish thing is to try all options before concluding something is incurable. Most mental illness is curable or manageable (or can be prevented), as indicated by relatively low incidences of these issues in non-first-world and non-modern societies.
why not? it is the group that is desiring to have their feelings spared, that seems selfish on its face. i don't have a problem with selfish actions per se as there are degrees of such.
I think I answered this above. I am for minimizing suffering of beings. And I agree there are degrees of selfishness, but I think all selfishness is short-sighted and deleterious overall, since I believe all beings are actually one (and in that context, should work for the whole).
such a view clearly posits the "other people" as the more important group and their desire to avoid pain is as selfish as the person committing suicides desire to avoid pain.
If the group is never held as more important than the individual, then what can be said to be unethical? Why is murder a problem? Stealing? Adultery? All beings have desires to alleviate some sort of suffering and to gain some sort of pleasure. Why is any behavior unethical if everyone's desires are equally selfish? How would society function if beings were never expected to sacrifice something of themselves for the good of the group?
i realize you think that death doesn't prevent pain though for beings that do not share such a belief the fact that pain is transmitted through the physical from is a strong indicator that death stops pain.
I recognize that beings may believe this. It does not make me feel it is accurate. Humans used to believe that the sun went 'round the earth and that the earth was flat. The earth certainly appears to be flat much of the time. So while I understand that beings may not agree with my beliefs and that I could be wrong, I also posit they could be wrong and I don't agree with them. I understand why people commit suicide. I just don't think it actually helps.
to prevent your own pain you would deprive others of their liberty and their choice. you don't think that such a view is selfish?
I said nothing of myself. I was speaking of the group as a whole. A suicide rarely affects only one person. Secondly, I think that it isn't only about preventing others' pain, but also protecting the person from harming themself until they can try to be healed. Thirdly, there are circumstances where it is appropriate (in my opinion) to deprive people of liberty for the good of society. I am not saying this would be one of them, but I certainly think it is appropriate to deprive people of their freedom when they murder, rape, and otherwise harm others. We are social animals. For survival, we must have some ground rules.
you're not talking about disagreement, you are talking about involuntarily committing people to psychological institutions.
No, I'm not necessarily. My own experiences have been with people who wanted to be in institutions until they could get better and were denied care. I do think, however, there is a place for committing people to institutions if they will harm themselves or others and there is hope for healing. It's the same question of putting someone on life support for a while to see if they can make it through a coma. It is (I think) inappropriate to do it indefinitely, but for a while to see if healing can take place, it is helpful.
nevertheless, i understand that you think that suicide is immoral and unethical, is that correct?
I think it's difficult to say, because ethical and moral are diversely defined. I think suicide (as opposed to euthanasia) is unethical in most cases, unless socially sanctioned. This is apparent statistically. Most societies view suicide under most circumstances as wrong behavior (the definition of ethics). I agree, because suicide threatens others' psychological health and the social fabric. When socially sanctioned, I may not agree with it, but I would not argue that it is socially unethical. I think God doesn't punish people for suicide or anything like that, but I think we work through our sufferings until we can live without them. So I think that suicide simply moves one's suffering from one lifetime to the next, plus adds on the suffering one has caused others in the process, plus means the being misses the rest of that life's lessons and so must face all of those again. It isn't that I think God finds it immoral, but rather that it simply is pointless for the being who is suffering and detrimental to others. So it is a wrong behavior because it is out of harmony with alleviating suffering and because it is ultimately useless to all involved.
