Is suicide morally or ethically wrong?

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by Vajradhara, Aug 18, 2008.

  1. Only Special To God

    Only Special To God New Member

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    What you are saying is true! Only God knows what is in the hearts of all of us. Our knowledge is based on what we know or what we have learned either by ourselves or by what others have shown us.

    I try not to judge others, as I wouldn't be able to fit in their shoes. And yes, a lot of things in life are not always what they seem to be or how we would have intended for it to be. I really feel and try to make things better than the way that I have found it.

    Personally, life is not easy, and yes I did try suicide once, and then there was divine intervention. God has better plans for me, I do believe. You see sometimes we do not think of the destination that awaits us. It is the path that matters, the path is what takes us on a journey and gives us choices to make along the way. It consists of the people that we meet, that hopefully will make us better or give us hope in our struggles. And at the most difficult parts of our trials and tribulations is where we pray the most, we ask for help, we ask for guidance, we ask "how much longer must be endure". Those are the times that God is waiting for, he will answer but your heart must be open to hear him. A weak person will not be able withstand a long hard journey so they will not make it to the destination that has been planned out for each and everyone of us. A strong person will find a way to withstand it or to move around it (detour). A weak person will also not have what a strong person will have and that is the memories, the heartaches, the joys, the tears, the laughter that make up what life is all about. It boils down to choice is the first greatest gift that God has given to man. We have a choice to stick it out to the very end or to just throw it away like yesterday's old coffee left in the pot.


    God Bless

    Ian
     
  2. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    There was once a time (a long time ago), when a young detective had a Beretta 9mm SMB and a silver tipped hollow point round with his name on it, loaded, cocked and pointing the way to oblivion...and it would have been so easy to take the trip...

    But then, people and their needs got in the way...:eek:

    funny how that works...
     
  3. Only Special To God

    Only Special To God New Member

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    Yes, it has been a long time ago for me, too! The people and their needs are what kept you from succeeding.

    I am glad that you are here with us.

    God Bless

    Ian
     
  4. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

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    I think, then, if I am summing up the last few pages correctly, Q, Ian/OSTG, and I feel that what determines suicide from sacrifice is intent, though humans can't always know another's real intent. We see actions such as a soldier giving his life for the platoon, or an Inuit elder giving her life for her family, flight 92, etc. as sacrificial actions. These, we think, are different from suicidal actions, which are in only the suicidal beings' interest but not in the interest of others and their needs.

    However, Vaj sees suicide as simply ending one's life, no matter what the intent.

    Is that sum-up correct?

    Vaj's definition is the correct one (in terms of the dictionary) but I think it points out that some people feel intent really defines whether the act is selfish (and therefore possibly unethical, if you think in those terms) or sacrificial (and therefore ethical).

    And Q and OSTG...

    I'm glad you are both here with us.

    Peace,
    Path/Kim
     
  5. Only Special To God

    Only Special To God New Member

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    That is Vaj's opinion and part of the dictionaries interpretation (which is created and defined by man giving a general meaning of words), that I also respect both for.

    You are correct Path in summary! Good job! :eek:

    (now bowing to the lady and taking her hand graciously while saying)

    Thank you very much Path for being glad that I am here. I do not get that much in the real world. You have given me a warm feeling inside my heart "Thank you again", Miss Kim.

    I am also very glad to be amongst all of you!
    And what a fine motely crew we make.......that is including everyone here at the forum.

    God Bless
    Ian
     
  6. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

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    Yay- I think the basics are finally hammered out. LOL I think the topic was confusing (at least, it was to me) because people seem to be operating with differing ideas of what constitutes suicide. At least now we have the lay of the land, so to speak.

    Thank you for your interactions. Interacting with people is a great joy in my life, and so I'm grateful for each being that is alive. It's a wonder and a gift to me. I kind of know how you feel about the real world. My family and a handful of close friends appreciate my presence, and I always do well at work (but that is such an impersonal place, for the most part), but a lot of people I meet don't enjoy my presence that much. I'm told I'm a bit intense for a lot of folks. CR has been a wonderful place for me, because even when I felt lonely in the "real world," I found others here genuinely interested in spirituality too, and who put up with me and even seem to enjoy the banter. :)

    I'm also just really grateful for every person I meet who has survived. Survived war, depression, abuse, illness... everything and anything. There is something precious about life for me, and something profoundly beautiful in people sticking it out and surviving. I dunno- that's a tangent. It's late and I'm rambling. :eek:

    Here, here! :D
     
  7. Nick_A

    Nick_A Interfaith Forums

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    I don't believe suicide is either morally or ethically wrong but it is a severe criminal reaction in that it insults society. Suicide assumes society cannot make ones situation better. This simply cannot be tolerated since suppose others started to think the same thing. It makes a very bad impression. Only the state has the intelligence to determine if you are worth killing.

    The severity of the crime of suicide as with some other crimes against the state demands the death sentence which not only affirms the severity of the criminal insult but proves how the state and its collective superiority can kill you more efficiently than you can.
     
  8. greymare

    greymare New Member

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    ok, now its time for me to add my two bobs worth, and you may not like it



    suicide is a cop out. Its an easy way out for someone who cant handle their problems, but it doesnt fix the problem for those that are left behind

    im a little harsh on this subject but thats just me, so if i lose friends, so be it.

    we have all been there, where stuff/life has been too hard to handle. Im glad those who thought they wanted to, didnt, really I am. But you know what, those who really do want to, well, they are the idiots that do it.

    You dont know whats going to happen in the future, what life will chuck at you, what happiness you may bring to others, death will come, eventually, why rush it?

    Think about this, if you are ever contemplating it........... Did your mother go through the nine months of carrying you, the (probably) hours of agony delivering you into this world and the life of nuturing you (for some) just to have you go and "top" yourself???? No she didnt.......and if you dont belive me,,,,,,,,, ask her!

    Sorry i get a little cranky at this subject, ill leave it alone now.

    .
     
  9. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    What if the person is bed ridden and to live is pure pain... Real pain? Suicide ok then?
     
  10. greymare

    greymare New Member

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    like i said, ill leave it alone now
     
  11. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

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    I love your spunkiness, Grey. :)

    That's my point too. Although I understand that life can be rather agonizing for some people, I just think suicide (for reasons of depression or mental illness, not for reasons of sacrifice) is a lose-lose situation. I don't even think it's that easy way out for the individual, but even if it is, it perpetuates more suffering than the original suffering of the individual.

    Sadly, I have met people whose mothers didn't care if they died or lived, but it's a rarity. Almost all people have some family, friends, or pets that need them and care about them. Sticking it out is important for their sake, and, generally, also part of the support network that enables one to overcome depression.

    As for the person who is in intense physical pain and bedridden-- this is unusual unless one is already dying. That said, I've known far more people who learned to deal with the pain and embrace each moment they can of life than people who haven't. Our own InLove was a great example of that. All of the suicides I have known were due to depression or other mental illness. While I realize there is variety, I can also say that all the people I've known with cancer and other painful conditions fought to hold on to life, and then when they knew they were dying, they still were determined to live each moment to the fullest until their death. In my own experience, physical pain is less of an issue (and also more an issue of euthanasia than suicide) than other reasons for suicide (typically in the US, some sort of mental anguish).
     
  12. greymare

    greymare New Member

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    thanks pathbaby, i agree with what you say, you just say it far more eloquently (big word, LOL).
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I have a friend in her late 60's, a Brit, transplanted as an Aussie and now in the US.

    Her favorite line, is "When the time comes I'll walk east till my hat floats" Like the natives who left to freeze so they wouldn't be a burden, she doesn't wish to be.

    I think the morally, ethically obviously has to do with societal norms. And if a family or society has differing views of death than current convention suicide can be quite an admirable thing.

    We seem to enjoy placing blame in this current world. Suicide could just be the ultimate personal responsibility.
     
  14. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    It has to do with personal choice, and why an action is being done.

    You people just don't get it. Suicide is WRONG for self interests. The rules are established. don't like it...go take it out on yourselves...

    yes that was a cheap shot. But then, ending a life is anything but cheap.
     
  15. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

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    Wil, I don't think death by exposure is suicide, even if one realizes that one will likely die. The only examples of people who died by exposure this way are people who are terminally ill or elderly and sacrificing self for the group. I think that's different than the folks that shoot themselves or OD.

    If I ever have a terminal illness, I would not want to be in the hospital at the end. If I at all could, I would walk out into the woods.

    But I would tell people where I was going and I'd hope my loved ones would come to say good-bye. That people see dying as a burden to others is sad. On the contrary, in my family several people have said they got the ultimate gift to be with our elders when they died. They got to see the veil lift for a moment, and their loved one transcend limitation. There are lessons at the very end that are amazing to witness.

    I love my family enough to give them that gift when it's my time to go and I hope my parents will give that gift to me, even if it is uncomfortable at times.
     
  16. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Kind of morbid topic this... As far as medical issues go I'm still fairly healthy and as long as I'm able to serve others in some way would probably not consider suicide for myself...

    Suicide or taking one's life is forbidden for Baha'is however there was a notable Baha'i who drowned himself in despair after the passing of Baha'u'llah from this life back there in 1892.

    He was a poet named Nabil-i-Azam who composed a lengthy poem which was also a history and known today as "Nabil's Narrative".

    "Though the Night of Parting endless seem as thy nigh-black hair,
    Bahá, Bahá,
    Yet we meet at last, and the gloom is past in thy lightning's
    glare, Bahá, Bahá!
    To my heart from thee was a signal shown that I to all
    men should make known
    That they, as the ball to the goal doth fly, should to thee
    repair, Bahá, Bahá!
    At this my call from the quarters four men's hearts and
    souls to thy quarters pour:
    What, forsooth, could attract them more than that region
    fair, Bahá, Bahá?
    The World hath attained to Heaven's worth, and a Paradise
    is the face of earth
    Since at length thereon a breeze hath blown from thy nature
    rare, Bahá, Bahá!
    Bountiful art thou, as all men know: at a glance two
    Worlds thou would'st e'en bestow
    On the suppliant hands of thy direst foe, if he makes his
    prayer, Bahá, Bahá!"

    His act of suicide was still forgiven:

    “He will be immersed in the ocean of pardon and forgiveness and will become the recipient of bounty and favour.”

    See:

    Nabíl-i-A`zam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  17. LenoBee

    LenoBee New Member

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    Suicide is often about a tipped scale of enormous pain and darkness when it becomes a viable option. Financial loss, loss of loved one pain, divorce pain, physical pain, no hope for tomorrow pain, failure pain. Some who have done it may not really have wanted to die.

    Perhaps the question is best answered by those who have tried it, know people who have tried it, fail or succeed, for those who have contemplated it, by those who are there to offer help and guidance and for those who have studied it, especially those who are matured survivors and have survived the loss of one they love.

    I am not for or against suicide.
     
  18. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste greymare,

    thank you for the post.

    since i'm curious about everyones view it could hardly be fairly said that i wouldn't like yours when offered, could it?

    whilst that may be that doesn't tell me if you think it is moral, ethical, immoral, unethical, neither or both.

    i note, curiously, that there is a strong aspect of putting ones own feelings before those of the potential suicide which makes the suicide wrong. it's a view which not paritcular to yourself, greymare, just one which i find to be rather unusual.

    essentially your argument, if i can understand it, is that there are other options for a problem and the people effected by the suicide make suicide the wrong choice in your view. does something being the wrong choice in your view mean that said something is unethical or immoral?

    metta,

    ~v
     
  19. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste Wil,

    thank you for the post.

    it is my view that such is demonstrably correct as the previous examples in this thread indicate.

    interesting point of view, i'd not considered it in this manner though i can see it's application.

    metta,

    ~v
     
  20. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste Q,

    thank you for the post.

    we *get it* Q, we don't agree. they are two different things and you do a disservice to all involved to confuse them.

    is it your self interest that forms the basis of such view? why is something wrong if it is motivated by self interest?

    on the contrary, the rules are certainly not established and seem to vary from culture to culture and from historical epoc to epoc.

    metta,

    ~v
     

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