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Wil, clean up on aisle three!

I copied some posts from a derail so we may continue here.

BrotherMichaelSky said: 

Since I am always guilty of using the term “vibration” when trying to describe my experiences – i will interject here…
It seems you folks are trying to fit everything about this subject into the descriptions of the very narrow range of audible sound.
I do not think that is going to work.
The reason is this (and please bear with me – I am trying to avoid scientific terms and describe something I experience ) :
If one is to experience vibrations higher ( or lower – for whatever reason ) they will indeed “experience” those sounds using perceptions which are “outside” of the ears…… my entire being vibrates with those frequencies when I explore them – not the bones in my ears….
How do i explain the use of senses you are not even aware you posess? I cannot.

But I CAN tell you that i have worked on boats – I became aware of a phenomenon called Cavitation. When a boat has two props, they must be operated at the same speed or cavitation will occur – an example of the Chaos Theory… the two vibrations will “battle” and all sorts of cross currents and chaos will ensue….

This can be displayed easily in your driveway as well – place a glass of water on the hood of your car… it will vibrate and concentric rings will be seen on the surface of the water as it idles evenly…. rev the engine and the water will splash and thrash until a higher vibration is evenly assumed, where the concentric rings will form again….
the period of thrashing describes the change from one vibration to the other…. a period of chaos….

I believe the asymmetrical frequencies you mention are just these types of frequencies – the contact of two dissimilar vibrations…. portions of reality going through a change….

Symmetry is a message from our Creator. It is representative of Universal Law. It tells us that peace may be had anywhere we exist – if we are aware of our natural state. Furthermore, it assures us that during our moments of Chaos – that peace and rest is to be found at the end of our trials…

Harmony is the result of Symmetry… and it is representative of Perfection – which we are never to forget is our destination ( which is why the examples surround us… )

and to forestall another question – Yes, even asymmetrical vibration is “perfection” – for it leads us in a natural way towards that which is perfect …. one might even say that it is the asymmetrical which is even more beneficial to us at this stage than the symmetrical – it keeps us seeking… one can not relax in chaos….
and do not forget that the physical is where we are confronted by opposites…. and one of those opposites MUST appear “Bad” to us… that’s how the physical works….

I am convinced that vibration will one day be our best road map to the Heavens – i feel the equipment within me to determine vibration in an exact way. I can find the same vibratory “places ” EXACTLY, with no difficulty – in a repeatable way…. and i accept information which directly equates to vibration… which must “lower” itself before i begin to understand….. Life is Movement – of which Vibration is the signature….

seattlegal said: 

Hey, speak for yourself! 

BrotherMichaelSky said: 

well, perhaps I should say ” Relaxing in Chaos has it’s costs…”

seattlegal said: 

Let’s back up a bit here:


Where is the harmony in the symmetry of “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth?” I say “nay,” as hate does not overcome hate.


Oh, you mean like not paying back evil with evil, and such? 

So yes, I can relax in such asymmetry, and balance and harmony can be achevied without symmetry.

We are getting away from sound and sacred geometry here. Maybe we can start another thread?

wil said: 

I look forward to it. (oh and that eye for an eye thing ain’t a minimum, it is a maximum if any penalty at all is imposed)

BrotherMichaelSky said: 

When the Law of Karma is considered, hate is hate’s own destruction…
give hate, and hate is received until the error is noticed…


well, we didn’t actually get to thoroughly link my comment with the topic…. but if you are done….

seattlegal said: 

There is the karma that is the fruit of action, but then there is the karma of intent which affects ones mind. When your mind is overcome with greed, hate, or delusion, you do silly things like killing, lying, stealing, and telling others to do so, which escalates long term suffering. So no, when you apply the law of karma regarding hate, hate does not become its own destruction. Hate actually escalates suffering for everyone, especially if everyone symmetrically plays along.


If you want to start a thread, I’d be happy to continue there. We might even get wil to move these posts there too, if we ask him nicely.

(Discussion in ‘Belief and Spirituality‘ started by seattlegal, May 14, 2012)

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According to this passage found in the Bible, it appears the answer Jesus gave to the Jews shows that he isn’t God, the Lord and Savior that Christians believe in.

John 7
13: Yet for fear of the Jews no one spoke openly of him.
14: About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught.
15: The Jews marveled at it, saying, “How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?”
16: So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me;
17: if any man’s will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.
18: He who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but he who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood.

(Discussion in ‘Christianity‘ started by IAMinyou, Sep 10, 2020)

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This is an attempt by me to better understand the need for “the abramelin operation”, as seen in the movie A Dark Song.

I have zero experience of magick and this movie was my introduction to it. Because of the way the movie ended I think a few with Christian backgrounds might find it palatable. I know I did.

My take on the operation as presented in the movie is that it follows the natural path of creation (begins with darkness, continues with a process of separation, and ends with perfection). That’s a gross oversimplification, but here I’m thinking of creation as described in the book of Genesis. To simplify even further, darkness first, then light. The book of Job also crosses my mind, and the principle of death and resurrection.

I’m thinking there might be a way to bridge the gap between the two camps for those who are interested. Likely there will be few, maybe only some of us who have been around for a long time and have taken more than a few trips around the block. If not here at interfaith, then where? To me, it’s at least worth looking into.

My question is a simple one: what can a magical operation give me that I don’t already have by faith?

(Discussion in ‘Magick‘ started by stranger, Apr 9, 2022)

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This is a continuation of a conversation that started in this thread:
https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20095/

To @badger, I apologize for bogging down your writing thread with my discussion.

Badger said:

Hi……. Josephus saved three friends who were taken down from their crosses and given treatment, one of them lived. We don’t know how long these three men were up on crosses before salvation which is a difficulty, but Jesus had only been on the cross a few hours….. convicts could often survive and keep themselves alive up to three days, the whole idea of the punishment…a slow self torturing death in the most shameful way possible because the stripped body would continue to excrete in various ways. The Christian depiction of a fairly clean European Jesus in loincloth being crucified is far from the true picture.

For your info:-
Josephus (b. 37 C.E.) is our best literary source for the practice of crucifixion in Palestine during the Greco-Roman period. As a general in command of the Jewish forces of Galilee in the Great Revolt against Rome (66-73 C.E.), he reports his attempts to save the lives of three crucified captives by appealing directly to the Roman general Titus. One survived the cross under a physician’s care, the other two could not be saved.

Life 76
And when I was sent by Titus Caesar with Cerealins, and a thousand horsemen, to a certain village called Thecoa, in order to know whether it were a place fit for a camp, as I came back, I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician’s hands, while the third recovered.

I am aware that one can be saved from crucifixion before death. It’s someone coming back 3 days after they died that I am skeptical of.

Personally, I doubt that there is any truth to that part of the story. I don’t think it references any natural phenomenon. I think it’s more likely to be an element of later folklore, probably exaggerating Jesus going into Heaven since the earliest account of a supposed resurrection was written several decades after Jesus died (by an anonymous author who likely never met him) and that sort of exaggeration is common with orally transmitted legends.

An exaggeration of legend seems, to me, certainly more plausible than someone coming back from the dead or any of the other proposed naturalistic explanations. For instance, Jesus was not saved from the cross by anyone in any account. On the contrary, he is consistently portrayed to have died on the cross and to have had his side pierced by a spear to prove it. I don’t think he would have survived such a crucifixion.

(Discussion in ‘Ancient History and Mythology‘ started by Ella S., Apr 8, 2022)

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I wonder what happened to the Druids.

Recently, at another meeting place far away, a druid introduced me to his ideas about Druidism, or is it Druidry? I never did get a chance to ask much more because that was the day I emigrated to here, an asylum seeker, if you like. 

But I did buy a book about the Druids from an ebay seller at the enormous outlay of £2.99 with free post. The author had researched the Druids through his lifetime, was a university professor and language specialist and he seemed to know a lot about this subject, but please don’t ask me his name or I’ll have to go to ebay and research my recent purchases before I can answer.

The thing is, as I read through the early chapters it became clear that historians, researchers and modern-day Druids cannot agree about the Druids……. only that they held Nature and all things Natural as dear, special and ‘holy’, which is why I was interested, being a Deist.

For example, some explain that the Druids held the sun in awe but not particularly the moon, others wax lyrical about the moon as well, which I do too…… I could bore you to death about the moon, in fact that’s a another thread (  ). Some explain that Romans loved killing Druids, really good sport, whilst others explain that Druid priests simply inserted themselves in to the new culture or religion as it swept swept over them…. as the people of an area were drawn in to the new way, so the priests went with them. I suppose that both of these possibilities happened, just at different times and in different places. But almost everybody agrees that the Druids held Nature in high esteem, even worshipping aspects of it. And that is what caused my interest.

As I approached about halfway through this introduction to Druids it became fairly clear that the Druids were mostly without a written language which is why nothing much has been left by these ancient folks, and the Romans and any Greeks who wrote about them could have been so filled with prejudice and bigotry that their perceptions were inaccurate.

Maybe, Could be, Think so, Think not, Possibly, Unlikely……….. these were the fruits of research, as far as I could tell. The great stones ‘probably were there before’, or so I read, so there’s not much point in a Druid going to fall on face before a stone circle unless s/he just wants to have fun with imagination….some kind of New Age thing.

Get it? So I have not got a clue about the Druids, apart from ‘Nature is it’.
So……….. what have you got? Almost certainly more than me……. I didn’t finish that book!!!

(Discussion in ‘Pagan‘ started by badger 16/04/2022)

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This is only one potential scheme.

Monad – Ever-present silent stillness.

Sun – The Teacher
Moon – The Caretaker

Salt – Id. One’s instinctual and emotional drives, similar to the epithymia and eros.
Mercury – Ego. One’s identity and sense of virtue, similar to ethos.
Sulphur – Superego. One’s analytical mind and goal-driven sense of reason, similar to the logistikon.

Earth – Discipline. Also associated with the Melancholic Temperament, characterized by cautiousness.
Water – Wisdom. Essentially one’s maturity and perspective. Also associated with the Phlegmatic Temperament, characterized by introspection.
Air – Intellect. Essentially one’s capacity to reason, problem solve, and remember. Also associated with the Sanguine Temperament, characterized by extroversion.
Fire – Will. Essentially passion and motivation. Also associated with the Choleric temperament, characterized by aggression.

I’ve been thinking about how to best describe these archetypes for years now and, ironically, I feel like I finally found the best way to describe them now that I am no longer enmeshed in Hermeticism. Perhaps they will be of use to someone else, probably one of those people that collect long-running lists of Hermetic correspondences.

I’m open to discussing why I came to the understandings that I have here.

(Discussion in ‘Pagan‘ started by Ella S. 17/04/2022)

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Back in the 70’s a nice man listened to my ideas and beliefs and told me that I was a Pantheist, and explained to me that believing in everything being a part of God was ….Pantheism. Many years later I discovered that Theism is all about aware, involved, participating God/s, which didn’t actually fit with my ideas at all, because the Whole of everything is far to vast to be aware of me, or this planet, or this sun, or even this entire universe……. I mean, the whole of everything is certainly vast!

That’s when I discovered that Deism is about everything, every force and anything else being part of the Whole, or God, but a God so enormously huge that God is quite unaware of us or even this universe…… I expect that there are countless universes. If you look closely at the back of your hand, maybe focusing upon a finger, you’ll see tiny little hairs; so select out just one for consideration and realise that you have never been aware of that part of you ever, never in your life, nor have you ever cared about it until this time. That’s I think the Whole, God, exists.

It took me all that time to find this out because the dictionaries and scholars and academics have taken Deism and stuffed it in amongst the definitions of Theism……… they’ve put Theism and Deism together.

Theism is about aware, involved God/s.
Deism is about unaware, uninvolved God/s.
That’s not similar at all.  In fact Deism is a kind of anti-Theism….. does not belief in aware God/s, a step towards Atheism, if you like.

But there is a resident Power and Force that rules here on behalf of the Whole, the Deity. It governs everything in this tiny universe, those countless trillions of stars and billions of galaxies…….. Mother Nature. It doesn’t matter who we are, or what we are, we all bow to her. And that’s how I perceive Deism to be a kind of Paganism.

(Discussion in ‘Pagan‘ started by badger, Mar 21, 2022)

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No. Then there would be two gods.

(Discussion in ‘Abrahamic Religions‘ started by muhammad_isa 27/03/2022

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The Rebels.

This document, written in Western Aramaic, was discovered during an archeological survey being carried out at the Misr Railway Station Car-park in Western Alexandria prior to the construction of a seven acre bus-depot.

The jar which held the scrolls is dated to circa 10 BCE, but the manuscript has been dated to between 55 and 60CE. There is worldwide contention over its authenticity but several researchers and historians are confident that it is a genuine document from that period.

The Vatican has declared the document to be a fake, but has shown extreme interest and is requesting that it be made available for further testing by its own experts. The Egyptian Government has refused to allow the papers to be taken outside the Cairo museum. Copies and translations of it have been banned in several Christian countries.

Translator’s Note
There are already several translations, all held in heated contention. Generous liberties have been needed to translate the document into modern day English since a transliteration of the document would be unintelligible to most Western readers. Its author ‘Matthias’, who was almost certainly an Eastern Aramaic speaking Galilean Jew, wrote this book in Western Aramaic Hebrew with grammatical and spelling errors on nearly every line of the manuscript. It has been my undertaking to translate the Hebrew into idioms of modern English. If I have strayed too far with such liberties then I beg forgiveness.
Doctor L Bartel MA TTSF (Truth Through Science Foundation)

The Beginning
I wonder whether this will survive? I am old and can hardly see, so I have to trust in Matthias who writes for me. I knew and worked with the Genessaret boatmen and want to pass on the true story of these hard men, what they did and the amazing man who led them during their attempted uprising.

Much of this story is based upon the memories of my friend and mentor Cephas, our patron Zeb and of several other people, together with my own experiences, because we were often separated during those months.

And I can also tell you something about the other Yeshua, because one of his comrades, Job, took refuge here where he lived for a time before he died, and it was he who told me about their rebellion, and I have included all in my account.

The priests here are devoted to me and cherish me, and whilst I am indebted to them for their kindness I know that if they find this account then it will certainly be destroyed. Matthias is one of them yet he declares that he loves me and promises to hide copies in many places in the hope that one day, beyond the madness, people might find it. I can only hope and pray that he will succeed.

I must have been so naive to have once believed that humankind is basically honest, true and good, when in fact it is wicked, devious and unbelievably cruel. And yet Yesh, who was our leader in the quest for justice loved every single person that he ever saw and all that he did not, just as Matthias loves his raptors which can kill without a second thought. Yesh saw beauty in us, just as Matthias sees beauty in those amazing birds.

Enough. I wonder if my story will survive?

The Monster
Zeb’s boats were as narrow and long as they could be without attracting too much attention from the officials, because such boats are faster for evading the lake’s watch boats. But just at this time we would have been much safer in a short tubby craft, because a huge monster was caught up in our nets, furiously thrashing about and threatening to turn us over. I don’t know how our flax ropes held together under the strain, or how the cleats which they were belayed to did not tear out of the boat’s gunwales, but somehow all our gear held against the enormous force straining and fighting far below in the black depths. But Yeshua had fitted the cleats… so they would hold!.

Terrified of these Demons that we knew lived down in the deeps we would have cut the lines and got clear, but Yesh’s presence reassured us. If Yesh said that a situation was safe, then it almost certainly was, and Yesh’s only worries were shown by his constant pleas to us to be as quiet as possible. Noise could attract a watch boat, it was an unusually calm night across Genessaret, and sound carries far over still waters.

And so we struggled on defiantly, hauling on the lines until our bleeding hands could reach and haul on the net itself. Farmers grew and harvested the flax. Capernaum wives and their children cut and beat it. Capernaum youths dragged it through nail beds until fine, and then widows drew the strands until they were as thin as hair and spun the threads into yarn. Then the netmakers wove it into lines and tied the fine netting; and that was all that was holding that monster beneath our boat, lunging from side to side and threatening to kill us all. Even courageous Ceph looked worried, and although It wasn’t our net he must have been concerned for his master’s boat and our lives.

But Yesh had suggested to Zeb the boat’s owner, how we could save a young man’s living (who had got himself and now ourselves into all this trouble) and gain him some drachmas out of certain ruin, whilst still earning for Zeb’s boat and crew…. only brilliant Yesh could have thought of such a plan.

This young man had inherited his father’s boat and net, and in proud hot headed arrogance he had declared that he was going to gain his fortune in a single trip by laying his nets out in the deeps where the old hands did not dare to venture. He was going to fill his boat with fish, pay his taxes and be rich! The only problem was that huge demons lived out in the deeps where the old hands would not go, and it was one of these that had got caught up in the nets and dashed the young fool’s hopes. The terrified and dejected lad and his crew had cast the net loose and rowed back to shore so hard that they had worn the skin off the palms of their hands.

Yesh had treated their flayed hands with herbs and ointments, bound them and listened to account’s of how they had been surrounded by Satanic Demons on every side, and their personal bravery in being able to cut free from the nets and save themselves.

Zeb had chuckled throughout Yesh’s description of that conversation, sometimes bursting into loud guffaws of laughter, whilst we boatmen were all very subdued by what we had heard. Then Zeb agreed that Ceph could take out the fast boat to recover net and dispose of the catch, but Yesh would need to be aboard to subdue any demons, and since we had all seen him subdue others before, we reluctantly agreed to do it.

It’s very dangerous to fish the depths, not only because of the satanic monsters below but because any watch boats that see a fishing craft working off station will seize it and may even confiscate it. The officials of the lake make good money at the expense of hard worked fishers. But fortunately they were just as terrified of demons as us.

Yesh had wandered along the shoreline for the first time many summers before, offering his own make of net needles in bone, and since all the fishermen needed good needles he was soon a popular worker around Capernaum. Zeb soon took on Yesh as his general craftsman, making everything from stone anchors to spars and carrying out repairs to the boats. His ideas about spars that doubled as oars and secret thole-pins allowed Zeb’s boats to be much faster whilst still seeming to keep within the Lake’s rules. Yesh was a very valuable colleague and friend, and when he showed how he could cure illnesses, deseases, wounds and even cast out demons from folks, it proved there was something powerfully special about him.

And now here we were, in the middle of the lake in the darkness, fighting to haul in that net in as much silence as possible, while worried Ceph threw himself from one side to the other to keep the boat upright… and Yesh just sitting there, so calm and confident.

And up came the monster, thrashing on the surface, the greatest demon-fish anybody had ever seen before, longer than any man and twice as heavy, it’s great maw of a mouth opening and closing could have taken a man’s head. And Yesh leaned over, grabbed its lower jaw and with Cephas and Andrew they dragged it over the side onto the deckboards where it thrashed and fought.

Yesh called out a chant to it, something like ‘Come out! …. leave!’ and as he did so he clubbed the great beast over the head with an anchor-rock and it lay still. He told me later that the fish themselves are not demons, but that demons invade them. We crew all retreated to the boat’s gunw’les and stared in horror at the beast.

‘Phew!’ gasped Andrew, Ceph’s older brother.

‘What now?’ asked Philip.

Ceph didn’t answer, he just stared at the beast still slightly quivering on the bottom boards, and it was Yesh who answered.

‘Down to the Gadarenes, Ceph? It’ll fetch good money down there.’

Ceph nodded his head slowly, and then sat up, ‘Yes…. let’s get on with it. We might as well benefit from tonight lads, but let’s not get caught, eh?’

‘Young Mark!’ Ceph called to me, ‘Help Philip to clear the net and fold it; we’ll see how bad the damage is in the morning.’

The crew shipped the extra tholes, hung the oars and we began the long pull to the South East. I had only been on Ceph’s boat for one week and every day had been exciting, but this was my first night run. I thought that I would spend my whole life on Genessaret, but that was not to be…… At that time I had no idea about just how famous Yesh and the crew would soon become.

Read on …

(Discussion in ‘Member Writing Forum‘ started by badger 31/03/2022)

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