One Way: the reason why Christian ecumenicalism is impossible

[holysmoke]

In our times traditional Christianity has lost its former intolerance of other paths to God which many non-Christians think is a good thing given the historical record of traditional Christians in action. But is this new stance true to the teachings of Jesus Christ? I think not. Jesus Christ was pretty adamant in the Gospel of John about the pathway to the Father being only through the Son and nowhere does Jesus hold up any other religious leaders for Christians to follow, not even Moses or certainly not Abraham. The point here is that the modern movement towards watering down Christian intolerance of other religious paths is not Christian but a pretty drastic revision of Christian teachings.

As a Gnostic Christian I believe I know why God intended there be only One Way to authentic holistic spiritual knowledge of God. If there were two paths or more to such knowledge which would be right? How do human being determine which way they go in life? They make choices and they cannot choose two directions at once. Jesus' wisdom still prevails: no one can serve two masters at the same time nor ride two horses or pull two bowstrings at once. So we have to make a decision which spiritual pathway is the one we have confidence in to reach knowledge of God.

Outside of those who inherit their religious traditions and never question them, no intellectual believer in God chooses a spiritual path that he or she believes inferior to others. We choose what we believe to be the very best one out of the bunch. Otherwise, it would be eeny, meeny, miny, moe, and who chooses their religion this way?

Yet in our times there is heavy social pressure on Christians to view other religious pathways as equal to Christianity. In other words, Christians are being asked to suppress their Christian views in favor of promoting peace and harmony between all religious faiths. Christians are being told it isn't nice to criticize Judaism or other religions even though Jesus Christ himself was a heavy critic of Pharaisic Judaism from which modern Judaism developed. I bring this topic up for discussion because in the past I have run into conflict with the owner of this forum because I do stick to Christian belief that Christianity holds far more spiritual truth than any other spiritual path. I believe I am only being honest and faithful to my religion yet if I post criticism of other religious paths such as Judaism I run afoul of the forum owner's belief system that seems to think all spiritual paths are of equal value. That's his opinion. Mine is different and mine follows the teachings of Jesus. I would like the freedom to be able to post my Christian views here without risking censorship. People who read the New Testament won't see anything really new from me, only modern explanations of these Christian texts, but try posting reasons why Jesus opposed the Pharisees for example and you too will be asked not to make waves in the interfaith comraderie that is supposed to replace competition between the faiths for spiritual truth of God.

God knows how human beings minds work and knows that people decide to follow leaders based on those leaders defeating their opponents in whatever arena exists for such battles. Jesus deliberately put himself in the Arena of conflict with the highest temporal and spiritual authorities of his day, the Roman Empire's man in Palestine and the Sanhedrin. It appeared the Roman Empire's man and the Sanhedrin won the confrontation but did they? Within 300 years the Roman Empire was Christian and the Jews lost their country..again. Such is the way we human beings learn to follow leaders; we choose the winners of the Arena battles, even the late winners..

This said, I ask for tolerance to be able to be Christian and intellectually opposed to other religious paths that do not in Christian belief lead believers to God. I want to be able to post why One Way means what it means to Christian believers who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

 

[wil]

This said, I ask for tolerance to be able to be Christian and intellectually opposed to other religious paths that do not in Christian belief lead believers to God. I want to be able to post why One Way means what it means to Christian believers who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Namaste holysmoke,

If this is your belief I have no issues with it. It isn't my belief, can you tolerate my belief that the Christian way is not the only way? After all would that not be the golden rule?

So if your way is the only way, what is your purpose on an interfaith board? To witness to this fact? Well surely not outside of the Christian forum as that would be againt our Code of Conduct.

In general sure you can post, but if you only want to preach to the choir, if you don't want any questions or discussions, this may not be the place. There are other venues for you to find a bunch of folks nodding their head and hollering halleluah, and amen to your one way thought, this just isn't one of them.

It also begs the question, which one way is the only way? The baptist? The only one and true and orginal religion as established by our saviour Jesus Christ, Catholicism? Jehovah's Witness? Mormon? Lutheran?....Oh I am sure you are to tell me it is your way, and one or more of the above is the wrong way...

 

[Quahom1]

Namaste holysmoke,

If this is your belief I have no issues with it. It isn't my belief, can you tolerate my belief that the Christian way is not the only way? After all would that not be the golden rule?

So if your way is the only way, what is your purpose on an interfaith board? To witness to this fact? Well surely not outside of the Christian forum as that would be againt our Code of Conduct.

In general sure you can post, but if you only want to preach to the choir, if you don't want any questions or discussions, this may not be the place. There are other venues for you to find a bunch of folks nodding their head and hollering halleluah, and amen to your one way thought, this just isn't one of them.

It also begs the question, which one way is the only way? The baptist? The only one and true and orginal religion as established by our saviour Jesus Christ, Catholicism? Jehovah's Witness? Mormon? Lutheran?....Oh I am sure you are to tell me it is your way, and one or more of the above is the wrong way...

"There are many paths which lead to truth, but since Christian truth has a salvific value, any one of these paths may be taken, as long as it leads to the final goal, that is to the Revelation of Jesus Christ." - John Paul II

 

[wil]

"There are many paths which lead to truth, but since Christian truth has a salvific value, any one of these paths may be taken, as long as it leads to the final goal, that is to the Revelation of Jesus Christ." - John Paul II

If your quote is correct what is this quote of his?

"It is my ardent hope that Muslim and Christian religious leaders and teachers will present our two great religious communities as communities in respectful dialogue, never more as communities in conflict."

Would your quote mean that the annual interfaith conferences he established were a sham to proselytize?

Or which quote is older...could the first be prior to a more enlightend JPII?

 

[Quahom1]

If your quote is correct what is this quote of his?Would your quote mean that the annual interfaith conferences he established were a sham to proselytize?

Or which quote is older...could the first be prior to a more enlightend JPII?

I see no conflict. JPII stated that there are many ways to the truth, but in the end it must lead to the revelation of Jesus. Perhaps that was missed the first go round...

 

[wil]

I see no conflict. JPII stated that there are many ways to the truth, but in the end it must lead to the revelation of Jesus. Perhaps that was missed the first go round...

then that would be one way.

I've never thought PJII to be this disengenous, I could be wrong. If you are correct his interfaith adventures were not the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help me.....

 

[path_of_one]

Does One Way (through Christ) mean one religion?

What does The Way have to do with the human institution of religion? How, if at all, are the two interrelated?

Can a person come to Christ without Christianity? Without the scriptures?

I believe there is one way, and that is through Christ. I believe any religion, including no religion, can guide a person in The Way. I believe every sincere seeker after God will find God, as the scriptures say: Ask and it will be given, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you.

Christ is more than Christianity. We have to first ask ourselves who/what Christ is, and what, if anything, human labels, social institutions, words, and categories have to do with salvation.

 

[Nick_A]

Does One Way (through Christ) mean one religion?

What does The Way have to do with the human institution of religion? How, if at all, are the two interrelated?

Can a person come to Christ without Christianity? Without the scriptures?

I believe there is one way, and that is through Christ. I believe any religion, including no religion, can guide a person in The Way. I believe every sincere seeker after God will find God, as the scriptures say: Ask and it will be given, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you.

Christ is more than Christianity. We have to first ask ourselves who/what Christ is, and what, if anything, human labels, social institutions, words, and categories have to do with salvation.

Aprreciating levels of reality is a great help here. If you want to go to the North Pole from the south Pole you will have to pass through the equator.

We are one level of being. Moving towards the highest level of being requires moving through the level of the son.

 

[Saltmeister]

In our times traditional Christianity has lost its former intolerance of other paths to God which many non-Christians think is a good thing given the historical record of traditional Christians in action.

Traditional Christianity has lost its former intolerance? So are you saying that traditional Christianity was formerly intolerant? What a funny thing to say about an ideology!

What is "traditional Christianity" anyway? Is it the same as first-century early Christianity? My experience of what many call "traditional Christianity" is that it is not the same as first-century early Christianity because it is not an ideology that describes Christianity in the literary, historical and cultural context of first century Israel and isn't compatible with historical and contemporary Judaism. Instead, it disregards both historical and contemporary Judaism.

But is this new stance true to the teachings of Jesus Christ? I think not. Jesus Christ was pretty adamant in the Gospel of John about the pathway to the Father being only through the Son and nowhere does Jesus hold up any other religious leaders for Christians to follow, not even Moses or certainly not Abraham. The point here is that the modern movement towards watering down Christian intolerance of other religious paths is not Christian but a pretty drastic revision of Christian teachings.

The question of whether "Christian" teachings have been revised depends on whether people in the modern world have understood or even known them. What many people consider to be "Christian" teachings are not "Christian" teachings in the purest sense but ideology that has become "established" in a local culture for a significant length of time but which people have not bothered to question or review.

Ideology is an approach to Christianity. It is an implementation with social and political structures associated with them. A lot of the time, when you are asked to subscribe to "traditional Christianity," you're being asked to align yourself with social and political structures. The path of Christ, however, is a journey and experience. What many call "Christian" teachings, however, are really ideologies.

Every individual has his own experience and journey of the path of Christ. You can revise ideology, but you can't "revise" an experience and journey because an experience and journey is personal and individual.

Is your devotion to an ideology or to a journey?

As a Gnostic Christian . . .

A Gnostic hey? So you're a Gnostic claiming that you know "traditional Christianity?" Isn't this the group that mainstream Christians regard as "heretical?" I think you'd be wiser and not copy the "mainstream Christians" in their ideas of what is "traditional" and their attitude in asserting what is "traditional." People have many different definitions of what is "traditional."

As a Gnostic Christian I believe I know why God intended there be only One Way to authentic holistic spiritual knowledge of God. If there were two paths or more to such knowledge which would be right? How do human being determine which way they go in life? They make choices and they cannot choose two directions at once. Jesus' wisdom still prevails: no one can serve two masters at the same time nor ride two horses or pull two bowstrings at once. So we have to make a decision which spiritual pathway is the one we have confidence in to reach knowledge of God.

I don't know why it should be illegal for a person to explore other spiritual pathways. I believe that the important thing is that if you're a participant in a Christian community, you are there to contemplate the purpose of the written tradition of the New Testament. You are there to contemplate the meaning of being "Christian" and to celebrate that with other like-minded people. You are there to share the experience and journey of a Christian with others.

What you do outside of that community is your own concern. You may visit a Buddhist temple or a Wiccan coven and perhaps "commune" with other Buddhists and Wiccans. No sweat. You're an individual. As long as you keep that outside the church you're fine. Slander Jesus and Christianity if you like (I don't care if you do it in the midst of other Christians). Just don't bring it with you into the church. Church is for Christianity. The outside world, the public sphere, is for everything else. If you live in a democracy you can say and do whatever you like as long as you're not violating the rights and dignity of others in secular society.

Outside of those who inherit their religious traditions and never question them, no intellectual believer in God chooses a spiritual path that he or she believes inferior to others. We choose what we believe to be the very best one out of the bunch. Otherwise, it would be eeny, meeny, miny, moe, and who chooses their religion this way?

Why do we always have to choose the best? I didn't choose the best, though I didn't choose the worst either.

This sounds like a utilitarian attitude where you think that you always have to make the best choices for everything that you do in life. You feel guilty when you don't make the best choices.

Mate, you've got to let go. Life doesn't have to be a battle for the best. Relax. Take it easy.

You don't have to be an Einstein, Bradpitt, Mel Gibson or Abraham Lincoln. You don't have to be part of a master race when you choose your beliefs. You don't have to think that you're becoming a member of a master race. There is room in this world for mediocrity and imperfection. Heck, that's what Christianity is about. Get down from that ivory tower of your's and see reality.

Christians are being told it isn't nice to criticize Judaism or other religions even though Jesus Christ himself was a heavy critic of Pharaisic Judaism from which modern Judaism developed. I bring this topic up for discussion because in the past I have run into conflict with the owner of this forum because I do stick to Christian belief that Christianity holds far more spiritual truth than any other spiritual path. I believe I am only being honest and faithful to my religion yet if I post criticism of other religious paths such as Judaism I run afoul of the forum owner's belief system that seems to think all spiritual paths are of equal value. That's his opinion. Mine is different and mine follows the teachings of Jesus. I would like the freedom to be able to post my Christian views here without risking censorship. People who read the New Testament won't see anything really new from me, only modern explanations of these Christian texts, but try posting reasons why Jesus opposed the Pharisees for example and you too will be asked not to make waves in the interfaith comraderie that is supposed to replace competition between the faiths for spiritual truth of God.

Why do you want to criticise other religions? What's the point? Do you think you can't be justified in your own beliefs if you can't criticise other religions? Is criticism of other religions necessary for justification for one's own Christian beliefs? Does a Christian, for example, have to put down other religions to feel that he is right in his beliefs?

Does a Briton have to slander an American to be British? Does a Chinese have to slander Americans and Russians to be Chinese? Can a Briton have national pride if he doesn't slander Americans? I think not. The Christian spiritual journey is for you, not others. The fact that other people don't share your beliefs does not invalidate your's either. Your beliefs are between you and God. Nobody has the right or authority to challenge your beliefs as an individual.

I think Judaism's place in (and thus its relationship with) Christianity is often misunderstood. A lot of Christians think the NT says that Judaism is obsolete. I disagree. Judaism as a whole was never a problem. What was a problem was legalism and fundamentalism and this actually happens in Christianity today. I don't believe it was Judaism that got Jesus crucified. While the NT does record Jews as being involved it doesn't mean that Jews and Judaism are inherently anti-Christian and anti-Jesus. I think Judaism's place in Christianity has been wrongly misrepresented in this regard.

If I hear on the news that a bunch of anti-abortion Christians who vandalised an abortion clinic and killed the doctors and women inside, does that mean that all Christians are guilty of murdering doctors that perform abortions? No, of course not, and if you told me that all Christians have an urge to kill doctors who perform abortions that would be offensive and insulting. It implies that all Christians have a desire for murder. This is actually what Christians imply when they say Jews were involved in Jesus' crucifixion.

The news report would record that Christians are involved in the killing of doctors performing abortions. But when I hear the report, what goes through my mind is that this group of Christians have views that I don't agree with. I implicitly think of them as fundamentalist Christians. They are followers of the same religion, but I don't agree with their views. They have committed a heinous crime and I don't believe I have to blame myself for it.

I denounce their beliefs and actions and dissociate myself from them. I can imagine that people who find out I am Christian suspect that I may harbour hatred for abortion-performing doctors, and that if I don't, I must be a "liberal Christian." I am actually pro-choice but if you called me a "liberal Christian," I'd be offended. That just devalues my faith.

The way I'd explain abortion and the crucifixion is that every religion suffers from fundamentalism and legalism. Fundamentalism occurs when religious people who think they have moral authority in this world to kill and hurt people take the law into their own hands and commit acts that are contrary to notions of civility and decency and that violate people's dignity.

Judaism wasn't responsible for Jesus' death and nor was Christianity responsible for the murders of abortion-performing doctors. It was fundamentalism and legalism.

Maybe future generations will remember Christians for being haters of abortion-performing doctors. Then again, maybe not. Yeah, abortion-performing doctor killers. Let's see if that story takes long to go around.

So Jesus, if you like, was a doctor who performed abortions and Christians wanted to kill him. Two thousand years later, there's a group called the neo-Christians who claimed that a 20th century doctor named Jesus set women free from their babies and that Christians killed him because they were misogynists and chauvinists.

Maybe then you'll say I was being offensive and insulting by saying that Christians are misogynists and chauvinists.

This said, I ask for tolerance to be able to be Christian and intellectually opposed to other religious paths that do not in Christian belief lead believers to God. I want to be able to post why One Way means what it means to Christian believers who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I think you'd be preaching to the choirs here. I think one would be naive to think that One Way doesn't mean you aren't allowed to see value in other religions and traditions and it doesn't necessarily make you a syncretist. Christianity isn't about abstinence from other religions.

 

[wil]

We have to first ask ourselves who/what Christ is, and what, if anything, human labels, social institutions, words, and categories have to do with salvation.

Moving towards the highest level of being requires moving through the level of the son.

Thank you both.

Always great to be reminded of the nudge. Although I believe differently it is always intersting to see how fast one can slip back into more conventional definitions of G!d and Christ!

 

[path_of_one]

I make no pretense that my operational definition, if you want to call it that, of Christ is not conventional. This allows me to have belief that is in accord with my observations- that people of all religions exhibit the fruits of the Spirit that are borne when they are cultivating a life in God. And that people of all religions exhibit fear, hatred, greed, and all manner of human error, suffering, and sin.

The common denominator among those that exhibit the fruits of a sincerely spiritual life, therefore, is not in religion or human institutions, and not in beliefs... but elsewhere.

 

[Thomas]

I think we need distinguish between 'truth', 'salvation' and 'Christ'.

There are many paths that lead to 'truth', but then there are many truths ...

There are many paths that lead to 'salvation' (although not as many 'salvations' as there are 'truths') and really it depends on how you define salvation: redemption, enlightenment, knowledge of the real ...

There is only one Christ.

One can be good, and seek truth, without ever knowing Christ. One can be saved, and never know Christ ... but if one wishes to know Christ, to engage in intimate union with Him, then that is something else.

Thomas

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Will,

Q is correct that there is no discrepancy between the two statements. JPII said that Buddhists, Hindus are all making progress -- as long as that progress leads to Jesus.

You are surprised that JPII was conservative, perhaps reactionary? He was. That is one of the most amazing things about JPII. He was extremely conservative, yet he was one of the most popular popes of all time. We must not let the fact that he was hugely popular and dynamnic blind us to the fact that he was extremely conservative.

I suppose a great deal of the present pope's unpopularity is that he is just as conservative, but he has none of the dynamic personality that JPII had.

 

[Thomas]

Does One Way (through Christ) mean one religion?

It should do, but as humans can never agree amongst themselves, no.

What does The Way have to do with the human institution of religion? How, if at all, are the two interrelated?

Well Christ founded the religion, called the 'Way' in the 1st century (Acts) and 'Catholic' by the 2nd.

Without it, you would not know of Christ at all.

Can a person come to Christ without Christianity? Without the scriptures?

Yes.

I believe there is one way, and that is through Christ.

Yes.

The rest is in why Christ founded a Church.

Thomas

 

[citizenzen]

In our times traditional Christianity has lost its former intolerance of other paths to God which many non-Christians think is a good thing given the historical record of traditional Christians in action.

Nice. A call for more intolerance.

What's good for Christians must be good for the rest of us.

Now I can ratchet up my intolerance for Christians.

And make the world a better place.

 

[Nick_A]

Nice. A call for more intolerance.

What's good for Christians must be good for the rest of us.

Now I can ratchet up my intolerance for Christians.

And make the world a better place.

By all means ratchet up your capacity for intolerance. Without it choir logic would become impossible for you and you cannot let that happen; it wouldn't "feel" right.

 

[wil]

I suppose a great deal of the present pope's unpopularity is that he is just as conservative, but he has none of the dynamic personality that JPII had.

I's just a gullible optimist I suppose.

There is only one Christ.

I see the Christ as a modem, the access to G!d...I see Jesus as only one, but as Christ, from the Greek for messiah or annointed... I see there as many avenues to that consciousness...and many that can lead us there other than Jesus.

 

[citizenzen]

By all means ratchet up your capacity for intolerance. Without it choir logic would become impossible for you and you cannot let that happen; it wouldn't "feel" right.

I never can understand what Nick is trying to get at.

I find that soooo intolerable!!!

 

[Nick_A]

I's just a gullible optimist I suppose.
I see the Christ as a modem, the access to G!d...I see Jesus as only one, but as Christ, from the Greek for messiah or annointed... I see there as many avenues to that consciousness...and many that can lead us there other than Jesus.

What makes Jesus unique is that he actualized the intent of a path that existed from ancient times. That is why he is the vine. The vine grows from the earth and is attracted to the light so can become its potential.

" Christ has risen." Jesus actualized the path and gave it its life and its potential for the salvation and transformation of human "being." This cannot come from our efforts alone but requires help from above that Jesus' efforts made possible through the Holy Spirit.

There are other paths that lead to the "Way" but any avenue must include the help of the Spirit regardless of if it is recognized if it can do more then allow one to feel good and turn in circles

 

[Netti-Netti]

One can be saved, and never know Christ ...

Please reconcile to: "No one comes to the Father, but through me." (John 14:6).

We have to first ask ourselves who/what Christ is

Yes, who/what is Christ?