Are veiled women a threat to the world?

[Muslimwoman]

Carrying this over from another thread .. come on let's be honest, what is really threatening about a woman with a bit of material draped over her face and where is your proof she is any more of a threat than your mother, hairdresser or girlfriend?

The blue sections are the conversation from another thread and as Bananabrain agreed with Bobx's sentiments I would ask them both and anyone else that feels I or any veiled woman is a threat to your life or society in general to explain your reasons:

Muslimwoman:

I feel sure that is not what you meant, so why should it concern you if people wish to adhere to religious beliefs without causing any harm to you or interference in your life?

Bobx

Wearing masks lets criminals get away with too much. In nations where veiling is the norm, the custom has often been a tool for smuggling explosives or helping fugitives evade justice.

As your fear is about women wearing the veil in non-Muslim countries please provide verifiable statistics on the percentage of crimes carried out in non-Muslim countries wearing the Islamic veil.

Here is one, a 6'4 male wearing Islamic dress and pushing a pushchair. As you can see the other 4 members of the gang were wearing male sports clothes with their faces covered .. are you also scared of and calling for a ban on sports clothes?

Robber in a BURKA: Police hunt 6ft 6in jewellery store raider disguised in Muslim dress | Mail Online

Here are two more, an international jewellery thief and a copycat in Glasgow:

Asian Men In Burkhas Rob Jewellers (from The Herald )

A London wouldbe bomber that evaded capture by escaping London for a few days by wearing burqa .. but he was captured despite his diguise.

Bombing suspect fled in a burkha | Mail Online

I know there was an American policeman killed by a man dressed in niqab but I can't find a link at the moment.

So there are over half a billion Muslim women in the world. In the US estimates are between 1 and 7 million Muslims ... let's take the bigger number just to scare you.

There are an estimated 1.5 million in the UK.

Lets say half are women, that's 3.5 in US and 750,000 in the UK .. a grand total of 4.25 million Muslim women in our two countries.

Of those lets take a mad stab in the dark and guess that 10% wear niqab .. that makes a grand total of 425000 women wearing niqab.

I have been able to find 5 men that wore niqab to commit crimes in our two countries.

So should 425000 women be refused the right to dress in religious observance because of 5 male criminals?

There may be more cases so feel free to add them and we will see how widespread this problem is in our countries.

Also answer this question please, if I dress as a cowboy to commit a crime should all cowboys be asked to change the way they dress and does it mean all cowboys should be treated with suspicion?

Muslimwoman

you go all HELL NO because women want to drape a bit of cloth on their face to be modest .. don't you see any hypocracy there?

Bobx

When I see a masked lump, I have no idea who that is or why he/she is doing that. It could be a pious Muslim woman, or could be somebody just pretending to be a Muslim woman for unknown reasons. It is necessary to keep a wary eye on someone who is deliberately making themselves difficult to identify.

I will wait for you to provide the above statistics before we look at what you are basing this hysterical fear on.

While I wait I will gather information on how many suicide bombers were NOT dressed as pious Muslim women and we'll compare the two and see which you shgould really be afraid of.

Muslimwoman

So there is a law in your state that prohibits the wearing of masks or face coverings?

Bobx

In several contexts. 1. It is illegal to be masked in a public parade ( many states have this ordinance, as a result of KKK rallies turned violent). 2. It is illegal to be masked while on the witness stand (it is entirely necessary for the jury to view the facial demeanor of someone giving testimony). 3. It is of course required to have a picture taken for a driver's license and to show this picture, and your face (that used to go without saying!), to a police officer who stops you. 4. And while it is not a crime, in general, to be masked in public, it can be "suspicious behavior", 5. justification for police to stop and question someone when a suspect (in a robbery that just occurred, for example) is being sought. 6. Muslims are seeking exemptions from all these things. They can't have them.

Before I get stared on the above perhaps you would be kind enough to answer a question for me.

Take a look at this photo:

Jihad Watch: Illinois: Islam "insulted" by alleged child killer's mug shot, says husband

Her crime is irrelivent in this discussion (although if she is found guilty I hope she is deported to a Muslim country where she will receive the appropriate punishment for murder).

What I want to ask about is why she has been stripped to her bra for the police photo. Is it a legal requirement in your country for suspects to be photographed in their underwear?

How does photographing a Muslim woman in her bra aid justice or make her more identifiable?

Anyway

I've added numbers into your comments so we can see which areas would be a problem for a Muslim woman.

1. Veiled women should not attend public parades because this would not be an act of modesty as she may come into close contact with strange males .. so no worries there.

2. Islam states that we must abide by the laws of a land we live in, if that means a witness must remove her niqab then she must. Of course I would ask the judge that the press not be allowed to photograph me unveiled and the public gallery be cleared before I remove it .. neither of which stands in the way of justice. If those laws forbid us from something fard (eg praying, pilgrimage, etc) then we must emigrate to a Muslim country.

3. Firstly, there is nothing to stop us having a picture taken for identification purposes (fatwa below) or to stop us requesting a female officer to check our identity .. if there is no female officer available a male officer can check our identity, as happens in the Arab world every day where the carrying of an id is a requirement and all women are photographed in hijab only.

Secondly, why is it ok for Christians in the US to have drivers licences without a photo because they believe the second commandment says they can't have a photo taken (their interpretation)? I haven't heard you rant about that one.

American Civil Liberties Union : ACLU Asks Florida Court to Reinstate Suspended Driver's License of Muslim Woman Forced to Remove Her Face Veil

4. Ok so I go out of my house, get in a taxi and go to the supermarket, I buy a loaf of bread, a pint of milk, a kilo of tomatos and some apples. I stop in at the post office to post a letter. I buy a mascara from the chemist and have my hair done at a Muslim salon. I get in a taxi and go home. Please point out where my behaviour should cause you the slightest suspicion.

5. If witnesses state that the robbery was commited by someone dressed as a pious female Muslim wearing a veil then the above rules apply, the police can ascertain the identity of women dressed that way in the area.

I think we can both agree that a US passport would be one of the most important documents for identification and travel purposes within the United States ... yes?

This is what your state department says about the photo:

Can hats or religious headgear be worn for the photo?[bl] Unless worn daily for religious reasons, all hats or headgear should be removed for the photo. A signed statement from the applicant must be submitted with the application verifying the item is worn daily for religious reasons. In all cases, no item or attire should cover or otherwise obscure any part of the face.

That would include the Sikh turban, Orthodox Jewish headwear and the hijab, all religious modes of dress, which are also allowed in UK passports too.

Here is a fatwa on ID photo's by Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid:

I'll just post a link if you want to read the whole thing but it begins

"Photography (Tasweer) means the taking of pictures of living, animate moving beings like people, animals, birds, etc. The ruling is that it is forbidden on the basis of several reports, such as the following:"

it ends:

"Photographs which are essential are permitted – such as those required by identity documents, or for identifying and pursuiting criminals [Eg Wanted posters] or for educational purposes which cannot be achieved otherwise. The principle of shariah is that we should not exaggerate what is necessary."

What is the correct ruling on tasweer? - Islamic Awakening Forums

6. Please provide evidence that MuslimS are seeking exemptions.

I'll get you started:

Here's the google search for muslim+drivers licence+us+veil muslim+drivers licence+us+veil - ??? Google?

every search result refers to one woman in Florida, let's see how many more you can find.

Now then, how come it was no problem for her to have a drivers licence wearing niqab before 9/11 but a problem after it? How many of the 9/11 attackers were wering niqab?

Then there is the court witnesses:

here's a search for muslim+us+court+witness+veil

muslim+us+court+witness+veil - ??? Google?

I can find 2 cases, a woman in Michigan (a civil case to contest a $3,000 charge from a rental-car company) in which the The American Civil Liberties Union, along with Bapist and Jewish religious groups, pushed the court to add an exception for people whose clothing is dictated by their religion.

So does that mean it is only Muslims that are asking for such exemptions on religious clothing or not?!

and a woman in Canada (in a sexual assualt trial).

So that is 2 whole cases and only one in the US that I can find .. I'm trying not to get hysterical with fear and outrage .. yawn .. how many more can you find as proof that this is representative of Muslim actions and desire for exemption to the laws of your country?

and yet the UK seems to have dealt with the issue without any difficulty whatsoever!!

Muslim veils 'should be allowed in court' - Times Online

Muslimwoman

I wonder if I should get all upset and offended because you said only thieves, gunmen, and KKK members mask themselves, or have a reason to

Bobx

If your religion will not allow you to conform to our laws against masking, then don't come here. Stay in countries where it is accepted.

So far you haven't provided any evidence that my religion states anything that goes against your countries laws, as I have shown above.

And what really gets my goat about this hysteria and bigotry is it leads sisters to ask questions like this:


Will I be harming the image of Islam if I wear the niqab? I have done a great deal of research and I have found that a number of scholars state it is mustahab. I understand completely that it is not fard but wish to take this step, seeking to please Allah. I am facing a lot of opposition as I live in a Western country. Please advise. IslamonLine.net

It's shameful that pious women should be made to feel this way.

So in the whole of the USA I can find one woman re a drivers licence, one woman re a court witness, one man dressed in niqab that killed a police officer and .... nope that's it, so your fears are based on what?

Over to you to provide some evidence to back up your fears and concerns.

There is a brilliant comment on this blog Letters from Limbo

"I think the only honest answer is, Because people who dress like Arabs and Muslims are creepy and scary and remind us of 9/11, and that’s not a good enough reason."

 

[Avi]

In the USA people are free to dress anyway that they please in public. This is as it should be.

If someone wants to hide their face to commit a crime, they simply wear a ski mask. There is no way to stop this.

This is no reason to penalize someone who wants to wear clothing for religious reasons. I do not think there is any serious argument to the contrary.

Of course, dress in private establishments is completely another story and is at the discretion of the proprietor. However, I think in cases where this principle is applied unfairly, it can be challenged (by the victim).

Somehow I have the feeling this is going be another long thread

 

[bob x]

where is your proof she is any more of a threat than your mother, hairdresser or girlfriend?

Where is there any proof that this being is a "she"? All we have is someone deliberately difficult to identify, who could be anyone, and will be hard to track after doing... anything, anything at all.

As your fear is about women wearing the veil in non-Muslim countries please provide verifiable statistics on the percentage of crimes carried out in non-Muslim countries wearing the Islamic veil.

Hardly anyone wears niqab in non-Muslim countries-- and I want it to stay that way. Crimes in non-Muslim countries committed by people wearing other kinds of masks are, of course, daily occurrences, which is why there are legal restrictions on masking, which I do not wish to see changed. In Muslim countries, the abuse of niqab for bomb smuggling and criminal escape is relatively common; I will dredge up some news stories if you insist.

lets take a mad stab in the dark and guess that 10% wear niqab

TEN PERCENT?????? Are you out of your freaking mind?
In 15 years in Detroit, which is the largest concentration of Muslims in the US (the largest concentration of Arabs anywhere outside of Arabic-majority countries; plus the largest concentration of the Black Muslim sect outside of New York city; plus some Turkish and Persian communities), I doubt I saw as many as a dozen wearing niqab. It is freakishly rare here, and I want it to stay that way.

Also answer this question please, if I dress as a cowboy to commit a crime should all cowboys be asked to change the way they dress and does it mean all cowboys should be treated with suspicion?

You are completely missing the point. Dressing as a cowboy will not assist you to evade identification. The whole point of niqab is to evade identifiability.

Take a look at this photo...
What I want to ask about is why she has been stripped to her bra

No such thing occurred. Read the story. She was dressed in a skimpy tank top and a headscarf. She was made to take off her scarf, but her choice of seemingly immodest top was her own.

1. Veiled women should not attend public parades because this would not be an act of modesty as she may come into close contact with strange males .. so no worries there.

Then veiled women should not leave the house at all? They are bound to run into strange men, otherwise.
The issue was a protest against cops in Dearborn telling a couple women they couldn't wear niqab in a march protesting Israeli actions in Gaza. Such marches have often led to violent clashes with counter-demonstrators or to acts of vandalism against Jewish-owned businesses. It is totally inappropriate to allow unidentifiable people to be part of such rallies.

Islam states that we must abide by the laws of a land we live in, if that means a witness must remove her niqab then she must.

PERIOD. End of discussion.

Of course I would ask the judge that the press not be allowed to photograph me unveiled and the public gallery be cleared before I remove it .. neither of which stands in the way of justice.

The judge might well allow you to refuse press photographs, but will deny you clearing the spectators out. THE COURTS MUST BE OPEN TO PUBLIC VIEW. The public has a right to know what happens in the courts. Closure of a court is granted only under extraordinary circumstances, and this is not one of them.

If those laws forbid us from something fard (eg praying, pilgrimage, etc) then we must emigrate to a Muslim country.

Precisely.

Secondly, why is it ok for Christians in the US to have drivers licences without a photo

It is not.

because they believe the second commandment says they can't have a photo taken (their interpretation)? I haven't heard you rant about that one.

I have never heard of such people. If they exist, then they should not be allowed to drive.

American Civil Liberties Union : ACLU Asks Florida Court to Reinstate Suspended Driver's License of Muslim Woman Forced to Remove Her Face Veil

I thoroughly disagree with the ACLU in this case.

Ok so I go out of my house, get in a taxi and go to the supermarket, I buy a loaf of bread, a pint of milk, a kilo of tomatos and some apples. I stop in at the post office to post a letter. I buy a mascara from the chemist and have my hair done at a Muslim salon. I get in a taxi and go home. Please point out where my behaviour should cause you the slightest suspicion.

You do all this WEARING A MASK? Then how do I know that this is what you did, and that you didn't just rob the bank and then put that mask on?

If witnesses state that the robbery was commited by someone dressed as a pious female Muslim wearing a veil then the above rules apply

Are you deliberately missing the point? The witnesses will give a description of the perpetrator, who might have put on a mask right after the crime, and we won't know whether you do or don't look like that UNTIL YOU TAKE THAT FREAKING MASK OFF YOUR FACE.

This is what your state department says about the photo:

...In all cases, no item or attire should cover or otherwise obscure any part of the face.

What part of this are you not understanding?

That would include the Sikh turban

In an airport, Sikhs are required to unwrap their turbans to see if there is anything inside.

Now then, how come it was no problem for her to have a drivers licence wearing niqab before 9/11 but a problem after it?

It should NEVER have been allowed.

So does that mean it is only Muslims that are asking for such exemptions on religious clothing or not?!

Only Muslims are asking for MASKS ON THEIR FACE.

And what really gets my goat about this hysteria and bigotry is it leads sisters to ask questions like this:


Will I be harming the image of Islam if I wear the niqab?

It DOES harm the image of Islam. Quite aside from the public-safety concerns, I find it viscerally repugnant to reject the human form; it is a rejection of the Creator. I would not of course think my own visceral reactions to be sufficient, in and of themselves, to restrict someone else's choices (heaven knows I have been at the wrong end of other people's visceral reactions often enough). But if you are concerned about "image", these are the two images which the niqab evokes: the "criminal", and the "inhuman".

It's shameful that pious women should be made to feel this way.

It's shameful that women should be made to feel that piety requires them to hide themselves.

"I think the only honest answer is, Because people who dress like Arabs and Muslims are creepy and scary and remind us of 9/11, and that’s not a good enough reason."

I agree that the creepiness, though very real, is not by itself a good enough reason. But the masking is also scary in that it reminds us of all kinds of criminality, not just 9/11; that is what masks are for, to conceal your deed. And this is a genuine fear, a danger that we should not be required to put up with.

 

[Avi]

Bob, sorry to disagree with you on this one, but after reading 25 pages of your recently attacking homophobia (which I agreed with you on), it now appears that you are defending a type of Islam-ophobia. By the way, how do you feel about defending minority rights ?

 

[bob x]

It depends on what type of minority you are talking about. A small group of people who do harm? Or who do no harm? Much wickedness can be done under cover of darkness, and that is what is being sought here.
Now, most Muslims that I knew in Detroit wore scarves; two of my office-mates and many of my students wore that. No problem. The niqab is very different. It is not welcome here.

 

[Postmaster]

I’m with Muslim women on this, there is nothing wrong with a veil. I don't know how relevant to Islam the veil is. I always remember my great granmar wearing a head scarf in Cyprus and she was Christian. It was common for many ladies to wear head scarfs in Cyprus and even today there is a (non sanctioned by the Orthodox church) Christian denomination that women enter with a respectful head scarf. Which I used to visit quite alot back in England.

Avi im wondering if there is any traditions in Judaism that women wore or wear head scarfs?

 

[Tao_Equus]

No they are not a threat to the world. They are however an insult to the female form, to individuality and equality. And when worn by western women a betrayal of many generations of women who campaigned tirelessly to lift women out of servitude to men and to gain equal rights across the board.

I have heard already your counterpoints Sally and whilst you may find them valid I do not and never will. In Islam dominated nations it is regrettable that women dress this way but in the west I feel that women who dress this way are insulting the standards of freedom we have long worked to get. I am insulted on a personal level when I see a woman dressed so. Such dress to me is symbolic of injustice and oppression and a medieval mentality I would like to see us evolve beyond.

 

[Tao_Equus]

It depends on what type of minority you are talking about. A small group of people who do harm? Or who do no harm? Much wickedness can be done under cover of darkness, and that is what is being sought here.
Now, most Muslims that I knew in Detroit wore scarves; two of my office-mates and many of my students wore that. No problem. The niqab is very different. It is not welcome here.

It is strange that you use reasoning that is patently flawed and prejudiced in, as Avi points out, just the same way that homophobes justify themselves. Though to be honest I am used to seeing such inconsistencies in you now. So while I am in agreement with you on the point I do not agree with your substance. Do you want to ban hoodies too?

 

[GlorytoGod]

must say that i hate the full niqaab its just so vile

 

[Muslimwoman]

Of course, dress in private establishments is completely another story and is at the discretion of the proprietor. However, I think in cases where this principle is applied unfairly, it can be challenged (by the victim).

Certainly in the current global climate I would understand if a proprietor didn't allow me access in a veil and I would simply go elsewhere.

I always remember my great granmar wearing a head scarf in Cyprus and she was Christian.

When I lived in Cyprus about 16 yearsw ago the women in villages still wore scarves. They also swam in the sea fully clothed .. as we still do.

And when worn by western women a betrayal of many generations of women who campaigned tirelessly to lift women out of servitude to men and to gain equal rights across the board.

but those women campaigned tirelessly Tao so I, as a Western woman, can have freedom of choice to dress as I please!

must say that i hate the full niqaab its just so vile

Would you like to expand on that .. in what way vile and how does our dress affect your life?

 

[Tao_Equus]

but those women campaigned tirelessly Tao so I, as a Western woman, can have freedom of choice to dress as I please!

True. But to make it complete you now have to vote to lose your vote. Do you feel any sense of betraying the hardships your forebears endured to allow you your freedoms?

 

[GlorytoGod]

Would you like to expand on that .. in what way vile and how does our dress affect your life?

I just find it repulsive, it represents a whole section of society that wants to keeps its self isolated and separate and not interact with the mainstream. plus not even all muslims agree that it is entirely islamic in fact its only recently widespread throughout the middle east.

 

[iBrian]

I'm easily given the impression that the reason for women covering themselves up in Mohammed's time was to protect them against rape - especially when you look at the culture of the time, and the events surrounding Mohammed's breaking away and being turned up by Medina.

It was a violent time in an already harsh culture, and Mohammed's followers were certainly a despised minority according to Muslim history of the period.

Therefore, if such a thing was proscribed, was it done so specifically because of the social environment and context of the time>

And if so, does that mean it loses its cultural importance now? Has the issue become an anachronistic hangover, and kept because like with all traditions, it was previously done, but should still be done, without any understanding of why?

 

[Postmaster]

Just found out Christians (Catholic and Orthodx), Jewish and Muslim people wear headscarfs yet it always seems to be muslims that are targeted on this issue.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Where is there any proof that this being is a "she"? All we have is someone deliberately difficult to identify, who could be anyone, and will be hard to track after doing... anything, anything at all.

Now try answering the question Bobx ... where is your proof that a pious Muslim woman wearing niqab is a threat?

Oh and don't try just making this about security issues or you wouldn't still be calling me a lump in a sack, despite the number of times I have asked you not to as it is highly insulting.

Hardly anyone wears niqab in non-Muslim countries-- and I want it to stay that way. Crimes in non-Muslim countries committed by people wearing other kinds of masks are, of course, daily occurrences, which is why there are legal restrictions on masking, which I do not wish to see changed. In Muslim countries, the abuse of niqab for bomb smuggling and criminal escape is relatively common; I will dredge up some news stories if you insist.

I can find my own news stories about Muslim countries ... now, again, try answering the question and dredge up ALL the news stories to support your claim that veiled women in Western countries pose a threat to society.

TEN PERCENT?????? Are you out of your freaking mind?

So can I assume you don't want to deal with that issue either?

WOW so those dozen women have you in all this hysteria ... you must have the backbone of a jellyfish.

You are completely missing the point. Dressing as a cowboy will not assist you to evade identification. The whole point of niqab is to evade identifiability.

Well no actually, the original instruction was only for the Wives of the Prophet (pbut) and this included talking to men from behind a curtain ... a physical curtain in a doorway or window. Other Muslim women were not instructed to wear a veil.

This was not to hide their identity as everyone knew who they were and what they looked like, it was to stop people gossiping about them and hurting the Prophet with runours.

However, as they are the Mothers of the Muslims we try to emulate them, we try to please Allah (swt) by copying their behaviour and dress. This includes keeping a wife private within a marriage.

So you are quite wrong when you keep asserting that it is worn to evade being identifed.

No such thing occurred. Read the story. She was dressed in a skimpy tank top and a headscarf. She was made to take off her scarf, but her choice of seemingly immodest top was her own.

Can you provide a link please showing her in the skimpy top and a simple headscarf?

Or was her khumar removed (an arabic word not used in the west)... which would have covered her head, shoulders and arms, as well as her skimpy top?

Then veiled women should not leave the house at all? They are bound to run into strange men, otherwise.

We rarely do ... yet we are such a threat to you hiding in our houses ... it's laughable.

The judge might well allow you to refuse press photographs, but will deny you clearing the spectators out. THE COURTS MUST BE OPEN TO PUBLIC VIEW. The public has a right to know what happens in the courts. Closure of a court is granted only under extraordinary circumstances, and this is not one of them.

Gosh such a HUGE obstacle to justice ... and yet for sensitive cases the UK simply has a closed court and releases court transcripts .. problem solved.

So your country makes a rape victim sit in from of a bunch of looky loo's, there for no other purpose than to hear all the gruesome details and listen to her testimony of being raped and humilated just so you can believe justice has been served .... can anyone in the US read, don't you have lawyers and appeal courts?

When someone died in a road accident do you leave it uncovered so the public can have a good look?

and you think I have a warped sense of morality.

It is not.[/quote[

Now follow the link I provided and come back and correct that statement.

I have never heard of such people. If they exist, then they should not be allowed to drive.

I shall await your threat ranting about that one .. I won't hold my breath though.

You do all this WEARING A MASK? Then how do I know that this is what you did, and that you didn't just rob the bank and then put that mask on?

Yes I do all that wearing a mask and drive and eat in restaurants with my face still covered.

So your adult, educated response is so "how do I know"?

but if I say a non-veiled woman went shopping there is no doubt in your mind that that is what she did and didn't just go to rob a bank?

Are you deliberately missing the point? The witnesses will give a description of the perpetrator, who might have put on a mask right after the crime, and we won't know whether you do or don't look like that UNTIL YOU TAKE THAT FREAKING MASK OFF YOUR FACE.

and the only way you could try to make that point is by missing off a part of comment:

5. If witnesses state that the robbery was commited by someone dressed as a pious female Muslim wearing a veil then the above rules apply, the police can ascertain the identity of women dressed that way in the area.

What part of this are you not understanding?

and what part of the fatwa that I provided, stating we should remove our niqab in photos for any type of security document did you fail to understand?

In an airport, Sikhs are required to unwrap their turbans to see if there is anything inside.

and in airports Jewish men are required to remove their hats to see if anything is inside and I am required to lift my veil to check my identity and have a body search if necessary.

So your point is?

You're looking silly now. Would have been much better to read my post and try answering the questions with something concrete rather than just having a biggoted rant..

It should NEVER have been allowed.
Only Muslims are asking for MASKS ON THEIR FACE.

So find me any forum or blog posts, other than racist nazi type sites, that talk about this prior to 9/11 ... something you posted back then would be even better.

It DOES harm the image of Islam. Quite aside from the public-safety concerns,

Aha at last you're getting to the point of the thread ... so now try to prove to me that veiled Muslim women have posed any threat to public safety .. something you have failed miserably to do so far.

There is the one female suicide bomber in the Middle East I suppose but pretty flimsy reason for the whole world to go into hysterical mode every time they see someone dressed in a similar fashion.

I find it viscerally repugnant to reject the human form; it is a rejection of the Creator.

Not a road I would go down if I were you, given how hurt you were by the other thread.

(heaven knows I have been at the wrong end of other people's visceral reactions often enough).

which is why I find your intolerence and personal insults so utterly amazing.

But if you are concerned about "image", these are the two images which the niqab evokes: the "criminal", and the "inhuman".

for you yes and I am trying to find out why, yet you don't want to deal with any of the issues I have raised.

Has a veiled woman caused you any harm in the past to create such feelings?

It's shameful that women should be made to feel that piety requires them to hide themselves.

For those of us that choose the veil (Arabs as well as converts) we are not MADE to feel anything, it is something that grows inside you, just read what that woman said in the question I pasted, even against opposition she felt a calling to wear a veil.

I agree that the creepiness, though very real, is not by itself a good enough reason. But the masking is also scary

so the creepiness is not regarding the veil but just about Muslims in general?

But the masking is also scary in that it reminds us of all kinds of criminality, not just 9/11; that is what masks are for, to conceal your deed.

Excellent hard facts at last ... can I have links to all this Islamically veiled criminality please ... I'm asking very politely.

Of course what you are talking about is bank robbers in ski masks ... isn't that like saying a horse kicked me so I'm scared of dogs .. they both have 4 legs and a tail EEK!!!

And this is a genuine fear, a danger that we should not be required to put up with.

Stop making sweeping statements and prove it, show us all the evidence that this ":genuine fear" is based upon.

 

[Muslimwoman]

I have heard already your counterpoints Sally and whilst you may find them valid I do not and never will.

You are quite entitled to feel the way you do Tao but this thread isn't about me explaining my dress, it's about getting Bob to either validate his comments or admit he's an hysterical bigot.

True. But to make it complete you now have to vote to lose your vote. Do you feel any sense of betraying the hardships your forebears endured to allow you your freedoms?

Why on earth would I lose my vote? LOL Women in Islam were given the vote 1400 years ago.

Quite the opposite, I am grateful to the first wave of women campaigners that only wanted the right to be heard, to have a voice and vote.

After that women's lib just went mental and that is one of the reasons I am now living here dressed the way I am ... I want to be a woman, not a bloke with boobs and a fanny .. which is how I felt back home.

I just find it repulsive, it represents a whole section of society that wants to keeps its self isolated and separate and not interact with the mainstream. plus not even all muslims agree that it is entirely islamic in fact its only recently widespread throughout the middle east.

May I ask if you feel the same revulsion for the Amazonian tribes that fight to keep themselves isolated, who live and dress in a very different way than you do?

I agree the face veil is not fard (a requirement) it is a choice.

And if so, does that mean it loses its cultural importance now? Has the issue become an anachronistic hangover, and kept because like with all traditions, it was previously done, but should still be done, without any understanding of why?

I answered that in the response to Bobx but it's a lot to wade through so will repeat here:

Well no actually, the original instruction was only for the Wives of the Prophet (pbut) and this included talking to men from behind a curtain ... a physical curtain in a doorway or window. Other Muslim women were not instructed to wear a veil.

This was not to hide their identity as everyone knew who they were and what they looked like, it was to stop people gossiping about them and hurting the Prophet with rumours.

However, as they are the Mothers of the Muslims we try to emulate them, we try to please Allah (swt) by copying their behaviour and dress. This includes keeping a wife private within a marriage.

Just found out Christians (Catholic and Orthodx), Jewish and Muslim people wear headscarfs yet it always seems to be muslims that are targeted on this issue.

Only really after 9/11, before that it was simply seen as a symbol of oppression and male mysogynistic desire ... like taking it off would suddenly change the cultural behaviour of men in certain cultures HA HA HA

 

[GlorytoGod]

May I ask if you feel the same revulsion for the Amazonian tribes that fight to keep themselves isolated, who live and dress in a very different way than you do?

I have never come across any.

I agree the face veil is not fard (a requirement) it is a choice.

well its a choice for some people, others have no choice in the matter.

 

[Muslimwoman]

that is what masks are for, to conceal your deed.

Sorry was just editing and re-read this, I almost pee'd myself laughing.

What DEED are pious Muslim women trying to conceal?

Erm picking the kids up from school, buying lipstick, meeting a friend for coffee, going to a mosque .. which is about the limit of what the average veiled woman gets up to.

Quick everyone build bomb shelters, the aliens have landed, the war of the worlds is starting, I can hear explosions in the background, people are screaming and dying all around ... quick Bobx nuke the Middle East before it's too late.

Grow up.

Women all over the world are raped by men, in every culture and every country ... does that make you a threat to society, should you be castrated just in case?

Honestly Bobx, you've have got to work on your prejudices.

 

[Muslimwoman]

I have never come across any.

But surely what you are repulsed by is their attenpts at isolation, as you stated, so surely coming across a veiled woman would only in momentary passing?

Have you ever come across an Amish person?

well its a choice for some people, others have no choice in the matter.

Correct, as I have stated many times inclucing in this thread.

I haven't yet met or spoken to a woman that was forced to wear one but I don't socialise in those cultures to be honest.

 

[GlorytoGod]

But surely what you are repulsed by is their attenpts at isolation, as you stated,

no not really. if they want to live in amazon thats up to them.

so surely coming across a veiled woman would only in momentary passing?

i am not sure what you mean ?

Have you ever come across an Amish person?

no i am in the uk as far as I know there are no Amish here ?

Correct, as I have stated many times inclucing in this thread.

I haven't yet met or spoken to a woman that was forced to wear one but I don't socialise in those cultures to be honest.

lucky you