Are veiled women a threat to the world?

Namaste faithfulservant,

thank you for the post.

Mw. I just want you to know that Bobx's response is not atypical of an Americans opinion on niqab.

"not atypical" means that it is typical.

i think you mean to say that Bobx's views are not typical of the group beings called Americans.

of course, since you and Bobx are both Americans both of your views represent the views of Americans. generally speaking, discussion forums are for us to express our own views not the views of others.

metta,

~v

I thank God everyday that I live in a country where we have liberty to practice whatever religion however we may.

that is not the case in the United States.

Of course you are going to have bigots and racism.. its like that all over the world. i have no problems with your dress of choice and noone else I know does either. I work with many muslim women that may not choose to wear face coverings but they do wear hadjib.

the discussion is about the face covering not the head scarf.

I think people like bobx are full of hate and I believe people that are full of hate were either abused or are themselves abusers.

they have a history of equally harsh posts with each other.

metta,

~v
 
I work with many muslim women that may not choose to wear face coverings but they do wear hadjib.
I also worked, on friendly terms, with many Muslim women who wore hijab. The veil, however, crosses a serious line for me. And not just for me: after the bombing in Somalia, several Somali groups began burning veils and forbidding them in their turf.
I think people like bobx are full of hate and I believe people that are full of hate were either abused or are themselves abusers.
Religious people have tried to kill me, twice, and have abused me in various other ways. I have never harmed any of them. I do, certainly, speak very harshly to religious people, often.
 
I think people like bobx are full of hate...

Once again I'd like to remind people that posts reveal small glimpses into a persons thoughts... not their whole being.

You don't know what bob x is full of. If you met him in person you might be surprised to find him completely different from what you'd expect.

Let's have some fun engaging one another and occasionally getting testy with each other. But try to find a way to stop short of judging another's character... we'll all be better off for it.

Peace.
 
Are veiled women a threat? I dunno. I guess you could hide a bomb under there, but I've heard of women stealing whole frozen turkeys from the supermarket by hiding them under a skirt. I don't think that a person should have to surrender their identity in public under general circumstances. Is it our responsibility to bare our bodies in proscribed ways so that we may be profiled, cataloged, and generally kept track of? I don't think so. I'd make an exception for ID where it's really needed, but otherwise no.

That said, I'm absolutely against the subjugation of women. And I will say that it says something about a society when women can't go out of doors without the fear of being abused. But there's nothing particularly praiseworthy about how women in the west are robbed of their dignity by being forced to play the pretty game.

Chris
 
A veil is a piece of cloth covering a part of the body. We all wear pieces of cloth that cover parts of our bodies. I hesitate to say that one choice is better than another since we generally base this judgement on cultural bias and not logic and reason.

My gut feeling is that people should wear whatever they want, and the rest of us should just get over it.
 
Zen, I should try to learn to be as tolerant as you are.

OK, as soon as I'm allowed to be a nudist in Egypt, Sally can wear her niqab in the US, deal?
 
Sounds fair to me.
My wife an I spent part of our honeymoon frequenting a nudist beach.
Very liberating experience.
After the novelty wears off one becomes far more comfortable in such situations, so it is a good education as to one's hang-ups, neurotic tendencies and other issues.
I suggest it strongly, for everyone.

The only bagism I would condone would be:
Bagism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
I'm with CZZ. To me, given the small number of people who have used the niqab as a "mask" for criminal activity, fears about it seem unfounded and culturally biased. We have many more instances in the US with people hiding weapons in baggy clothing- especially very baggy jeans and long sportswear jersy shirts. I'll never forget a special I watched on school safety in which a teen demonstrated being able to hide several guns including a *rifle* and several knives in one single outfit of very baggy jeans and long sportswear jersey. Unless we are fair about it and start proscribing a public dress code that prohibits all capacity for hiding identity (naked, anyone? OK, bobx would feel comfy, but most women wouldn't ;)) and all capacity for hiding weapons, any proscription against the niqab specifically just demonstrates a prejudice and goes against the constitutional right to practice one's religion.

Personally, I don't give a hoot about whether the niqab is necessary or not in Islamic belief. What I care about is every person's right to choose how to practice their own faith, so long as it the practice is not harming others. Claiming that the niqab is harmful to public safety is just laughable. One in three American women is sexually assaulted in her lifetime, almost universally by men. So should men be taken off the streets because being a man means they are statistically more likely to commit such a crime? There is at least much more statistical grounding for that action than to say some half billion Muslim women should have some dress code enforced on them because there are under a dozen incidences of it being used falsely. Statistically, it's just completely irrational. It's cultural prejudice, that's all.

I believe in women's rights, and I believe that means upholding every woman's right to her religion and construction of gender role.

Generally speaking, I think the US culture has little ground to stand on when it comes to debating about women's rights and freedoms. On paper, we have equal rights, but culturally we do not and it is devastating. When one third of women are sexually assaulted (and many others don't report it!), when girls as young as 8 or 9 are concerned with their appearance and learning to view themselves as sexual objects, when 18 year old girls are getting Botox as "preventative measures"... we have a seriously deranged cultural idea of "freedom" for women. Sure, I can dress in a bikini top on the street, but when someone date rapes me I'm unlikely to get him prosecuted because "I asked for it." The "freedom" to all wear skimpy attire isn't freedom until men and women view the body as sacred and respect the bodies of others. Until then, women's bodies and minds continue to be exploited for the sake of capitalism... to get us to buy products so we look pretty and young and whatever. I fail to see how that is less oppressive than wearing niqab. I fail to see how worrying about being sexually attacked, even by men you know, is less oppressive. I have held more than one friend in my arms as she cried after being raped or abused. So until we fix this incredibly widespread problem of harm to women in the US and really give women equal freedom... I think we're just paying lip service.

Again, just like we ignore the real sources of sexual misery in the US and have widespread homophobia, we ignore the real sources of women's freedom in the US and have hysteria about "traditional/modest" women... the extreme being the niqab. But I've heard rants against various other orthodox women, including fundamentalist Christian women who choose to have many children and stay at home, Amish and Quaker women who choose to dress traditionally, and Jewish women who wear wigs or headscarfs.

These women don't make the same choices I do. But I will always defend their rights to make their own choices.

And before someone feeds out the line "Oh, but it's not a choice! It is brainwashing!" All culture is brainwashing. My own choices aren't just "my" choice. That's part of being human.
 
We have many more instances in the US with people hiding weapons in baggy clothing- especially very baggy jeans and long sportswear jersy shirts.
This is missing my point, which is that such offenders are identifiable afterwards.

What is hidden under the bag could be hidden under all kinds of clothing, yes-- but what is hidden under the face-mask is THE PERSON. That is what I object to.
 
Wearing the full ugly-kit maybe acceptable in the oppressive, misogynistic, feudal states in which Islam infects like a cancer. But to wear them in the west is sticking up a middle finger to western values. In most countries in the west we do not have freedom to walk around naked except in designated areas. Because nakedness is seen as socially unacceptable. Likewise being completely unidentifiable is socially unacceptable and is disrespectful to the citizenship at large. They want to wear black sack-cloth in Las Vegas let them do so, but there should be a requirement that faces be visible. This is the route that France took. It is not just the wearer who has rights it is the sensibilities of the wider public that also have to be respected. There is no requirement in Islam that women should be unidentifiable, only that they should exercise modesty. Wearing the full ugly-kit in the west is anything but modest.
 
There should be no requirement on anyone when it comes to clothing. Especially when it comes to freedom of cultural and religious views.

Napoleon once banned Venetian carnival masks when he took control of Venice. Maybe they scared him.
 
for me, it's quite simple. cover your hair, cover your body how you like. i have no issue with frummy wigs (apart from the fact they are inherently ridiculous) hijabs or turbans (although i'd prefer not to sit behind a sardar-ji in a cinema) but there are issues of law and order, identification, health and safety and, frankly the associations of covering your face in a largely peaceful (i.e. not like C6th arabia) non-veil society. under any circumstances where one is not permitted to wear a balaclava or a motorcycle helmet or one is required to remove them for identification or by a duly constituted authority, whether that is a policeman, a law court, a bank telling booth or a class of schoolkids, those are the *specific* examples where a niqab should not be permitted. i dislike them for many of the same reasons people dislike hoodie-tops. and, lest we forget, people find hoodie-tops threatening because they basically make people look suspicious.

as ID issues become more and more important, the greatest threat to the niqab will be identity theft.

this isn't about islam from my PoV. it's not about the beauty of the human form; it's about finding a common language and the blocking of communication. the niqab, to me, is the equivalent of one of those one-way mirrors you get in police line-up facilities; it says "i can look at you, but you can't look at me". that, for me, violates something very fundamental that the hijab, or other forms of modest dress, simply do not.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
this isn't about islam from my PoV. it's not about the beauty of the human form; it's about finding a common language and the blocking of communication. the niqab, to me, is the equivalent of one of those one-way mirrors you get in police line-up facilities; it says "i can look at you, but you can't look at me". that, for me, violates something very fundamental that the hijab, or other forms of modest dress, simply do not.

b'shalom

bananabrain

interesting, the op should maybe be is the world a threat to the veiled woman, since she is within in it for allah [if it is, in the main, for MW anyway, a free act] so it is separating the profane [outside world] from the sacred, which is for allah and her husband in the privacy of own home.

the overt barrier is an affront to our very public society which might not be a bad thing, but used as criminal activities [eg in glasgow where a catholic granny is now even more prejudiced against islam due to the veil used in a robbery] is not good, the few spoil it for the many, again.
 
i would also mention the lessons learned by peacekeeping forces in relation to mirrored sunglasses - in many parts of the world where veils are used, or in parts of the world where the police are unaccountable; not being able to see the expression on someone's face is always experienced as intimidating. perhaps that's stupid, sally, but it is a universal human response.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Face facts.
You are here.
In all your glory.
You can't hide away in a facsimile womb.
You can hide your face when you are laid in your tomb.
Until then....as the singer sang....
face miles of trials
with smiles.:D

Make sure we can see you smiling too.
I will smile right back at you.
 
i would also mention the lessons learned by peacekeeping forces in relation to mirrored sunglasses - in many parts of the world where veils are used, or in parts of the world where the police are unaccountable; not being able to see the expression on someone's face is always experienced as intimidating. perhaps that's stupid, sally, but it is a universal human response.

b'shalom

bananabrain

That is true even in parts of the world where the police are accountable.
 
In my expereince women take longer to take their clothes off when asked. Maybe this issue will have this pyschology behind it?
 
i would also mention the lessons learned by peacekeeping forces in relation to mirrored sunglasses - in many parts of the world where veils are used, or in parts of the world where the police are unaccountable; not being able to see the expression on someone's face is always experienced as intimidating. perhaps that's stupid, sally, but it is a universal human response.

b'shalom

bananabrain
What we have here, son, is a failure to communicate
 
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