Now try answering the question Bobx ... where is your proof that a pious Muslim woman wearing niqab is a threat?
Try answering the question, Sally: where is the proof that this being in the niqab is a "pious Muslim woman"? I have no idea who or what that is. That's the whole point.
Except when there is an actual blizzard, I have seen people wearing ski masks on the street even more rarely than niqab, and when you see that it means one thing and one thing only: Trouble, with a capital T. Damn straight I want the police stopping and questioning those people. Now if it becomes acceptable to walk around the street in a full burkha or whatever, then they won't wear ski masks, they can get away with burkhas, if it becomes a rule that police can't stop someone who is disguised in that manner without cries of discrimination.
Oh and don't try just making this about security issues or you wouldn't still be calling me a lump in a sack, despite the number of times I have asked you not to as it is highly insulting.
YOU are the one repeating the phrase. I said it once; I thought it a fairly neutral description of the blurred indistinct look you are aiming for. I have not said it since, though you have, several times.
WOW so those dozen women have you in all this hysteria ... you must have the backbone of a jellyfish.
I don't want it to become commonplace. That would be a very different and dangerous society.
This was not to hide their identity as everyone knew who they were and what they looked like
How did anyone know which one was which and what any of them looked like, if they walked around in complete disguise?
Can you provide a link please showing her in the skimpy top and a simple headscarf?
Or was her khumar removed (an arabic word not used in the west)... which would have covered her head, shoulders and arms, as well as her skimpy top?
YOU provided the link; try reading it. She was wearing a "tank top and a head scarf"; there is no mention of any "khumar" or anything else, and nothing was removed except the scarf.
We rarely do ... yet we are such a threat to you hiding in our houses ... it's laughable.
I don't care what you do in your own house. I just don't want niqab out on the streets.
Look, my own spiritual beliefs are that the human body is beautiful and sacred. I much prefer to be naked whenever the weather does not actually require clothing. I am usually naked when I am posting to you; if the thought of that bothers you, that's too bad, because I am in my own home, and if I let you do what you want in your own home, you should extend the same courtesy to me. But OF COURSE I wear clothing when I go out in public; I would never expect to be granted exemptions from the rules everybody else has to obey just because I have peculiar views.
Gosh such a HUGE obstacle to justice ... and yet for sensitive cases the UK simply has a closed court and releases court transcripts .. problem solved.
The British practice of closed courts was the source of serious abuses in past centuries; it is one of the tyrannies complained about in our Declaration of Independence. The right of the defendant to insist on the trial being public is written into the Constitution, so don't expect us to change (now if BOTH SIDES agree to waive the right of publicity, that is a different matter).
So your country makes a rape victim sit in from of a bunch of looky loo's, there for no other purpose than to hear all the gruesome details and listen to her testimony of being raped and humilated just so you can believe justice has been served ....
The alternative is to allow false accusations of rape (or anything else) to be made by a hidden complainant.
When someone died in a road accident do you leave it uncovered so the public can have a good look?
Accidents are cleaned up as quickly as possible; the road will be blocked to traffic if the police need the area clear for evidence gathering, and this is commonly done in the fatal crashes. However, the public is not forbidden to pass by (typically with the road narrowed to one lane) simply because there is an ugly scene.
I shall await your threat ranting about that one .. I won't hold my breath though.
Goddamn those crazy Christians!
Is that what you're looking for?
In all seriousness, I truly am SICK AND TIRED of religious people, whether Christian, Muslim, Sikh, Wiccan, whatever, expecting to get special exemptions from general rules because of peculiar beliefs. American jurisprudence has often interpreted "religious freedom" to mean that Christians (in particular) get all kinds of "special rights" that nobody else would be allowed to get away with (and then Christians have the nerve to use the phrase "special rights" to mean "equal rights" when they don't want to grant simple equality to others).
Yes I do all that wearing a mask and drive and eat in restaurants with my face still covered.
So your adult, educated response is so "how do I know"?
Precisely. I see this unidentifiable humanoid, and I am supposed to trust that this person has been out to eat at a restaurant rather than robbing a bank? It is a general rule that people should let themselves be readily identifiable, a rule that I am not willing to see changed.
but if I say a non-veiled woman went shopping there is no doubt in your mind that that is what she did and didn't just go to rob a bank?
If she just robbed a bank, then witnesses will be able to identify her as the robber.
and the only way you could try to make that point is by missing off a part of comment:
5. If witnesses state that the robbery was commited by someone dressed as a pious female Muslim wearing a veil then the above rules apply, the police can ascertain the identity of women dressed that way in the area.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? I asked you to suppose that the robber put on this disguise AFTER the robbery. People should not be allowed to walk around in disguise, for this reason.
and in airports Jewish men are required to remove their hats to see if anything is inside and I am required to lift my veil to check my identity and have a body search if necessary.
So your point is?
I gave the Sikhs as an example because Sikhs have asked for an exemption, not to have to unwrap their turbans. They can't have that exemption, for the exact same reason that Muslims can't be exempted from removing their niqab in a public rally or on the witness stand or when a policeman wants to check identity. I am opposed to allowing the niqab in public at all, although that is not the current state of American law and is not likely to become so anytime soon.
So find me any forum or blog posts, other than racist nazi type sites, that talk about this prior to 9/11 ... something you posted back then would be even better.
Search engines don't let you sort by the date the item appeared on the web. And forums and blogs are generally ephemeral: I know there were heated discussions about the Muslim practice of veiling on two of the MSN Groups I was active on back in 1999-2001, MiddleEastAbrahamicForum and ChristianDebate, but MSN Groups has been totally deleted.
Aha at last you're getting to the point of the thread ... so now try to prove to me that veiled Muslim women have posed any threat to public safety .. something you have failed miserably to do so far.
A casual search, by no means all-inclusive (I know there were at least a couple cases in Israel which didn't come up here):
Veiled bomber in Somalia
Veiled bombers in Pakistan and Iraq
Veiled criminals
For those of us that choose the veil (Arabs as well as converts) we are not MADE to feel anything, it is something that grows inside you
It only grows inside you if it is planted there.
so the creepiness is not regarding the veil but just about Muslims in general?
Actually, I was talking about the "creepiness" of the veil itself, but:
There is no sense in pretending that my deep feelings against Islam have nothing to do with this. I am more worried about Christians, usually, since there are more of them around me, but I am perfectly aware that Islam is far more dangerous to me. "Moderate" Muslims are as thoughtlessly insulting to me as fundamentalist Christians; fundamentalist Muslims demand my death as openly as the most extremist Christians; extremist Muslims would not be satisfied with anything less than death by gruesome torture.
But the veil in particular arouses both a visceral repulsion, which would not by itself be a justification for restricting it, and concern for my safety, which would; and you can see that these reactions are hardly unique to me. I am rather surprised at your inability to understand where these reactions come from.
Of course what you are talking about is bank robbers in ski masks ... isn't that like saying a horse kicked me so I'm scared of dogs .. they both have 4 legs and a tail EEK!!!
More like: pit bulls have attacked people on the street, so we also insist that leash law apply to German Shepherds too, and I don't care if you tell me that YOUR pet is perfectly well-behaved and wouldn't hurt a mouse, I have no way to tell a good dog from a bad dog and should not have the burden of needing to.
