Assignment: "Freewill" (Pro/Con)

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by Gatekeeper, Mar 8, 2011.

  1. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    After three days on the closet floor your socks are good again provided they were turned inside-out. This does not work if they're placed in the hamper.

    Chris
     
  2. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

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    Pro:
    I can give a measure of power to another, even if they choose torture with it and it removes from me. A bit of power I receive, and so I have a bit of power I can give. I appreciate having, and I choose to give.

    I can serve others, even if they are unworthy of being served. A measure of service I can receive, and a measure of service I can give. I appreciate receiving, and I choose to give.

    I can forgive others, even if they have sinned. Forgiveness I can receive, and forgiveness I can give. I appreciate receiving, and I choose to give.

    Con:
    I have no choice but to give a measure of power to others, in order that I may receive my own. A bit of power I must have, so a bit of power I must give. I have no choice.

    I have no choice but to serve others, in order that I may be served by them. A measure of service I require, so a measure of service I must give. I have no choice.

    I have no choice but to forgive others, in order that I can be forgiven. Forgiveness I require, so forgiveness I am forced to give. I have no choice.
     
  3. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    In that light (pardon the pun), we will begin with two individuals with absolute power, but of decidedly different ranks of position in life.

    One night a Captain of a destroyer came upon something with shining lights in the path of his vessel.

    "This is the INTREPED, come about 5 degrees to my starboard".

    "Come about 90 degrees to my starboard or port" was the response.

    "I am with right of way sir, you will come about 5 degrees to my starboard!"

    "I understand sir, you will come about 90 degrees to my starboard or port, and you will do so immediately."

    "I am the Captain of the USS INTREPED, you will come about NOW!!!..."

    "I am a Coast Guard Petty Officer, and this is a light house...Your call sir..."
     
  4. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

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    It seems funny, maybe fitting, that a joke with a miscommunication is itself full of greater miscommunication relative to the seafaring community. If you were ever in the Coast Guard, why would you even post this malformed version, especially here?

    The more original version that I saw a decade ago looked like this:
    The aircraft carrier that thought a lighthouse was another ship-Fiction!

     
  5. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Okay, I've removed the silly arguing from this thread.

    Let's try and stay on topic, thanks.
     
  6. greymare

    greymare New Member

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    It seems my opinion on free will was deleted, so I will state it again, if thats ok.

    I believe we have free will.
    and , (in a nutshell) God gave us free will, and we use Him as a guide.
    I do not believe we always go with our greatest desires....many of us go against it....... perhaps begrudingly, for someone elses benefit. that to me is free will. Just a little example.

    I think He gives us options, and its up to us to choose. We are free to do that. Even if we make a mistake, as long as He is our guide, I think it all works out.

    thats just my opinion.

    Love the Grey
     
  7. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    No arguement, as it is even documented by the Scriptures, according to Genesis 4:6,7 and Deuteronomy 30:15-19. We have indeed been granted with freewill.
    Ben
     
  8. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    The OP stated:
    Free Will needs to be redefined as its usage is antiquated and not applicable to today's Knowledge.

    Freedom of Will sounds better to me, and has nothing to do with making choices, which we make based on our ethical stances. It does have to do with projecting 'your' Will or fulfilling the Will of another. Thus Freedom of Will id being Free from the Will of another and projecting your Will into the objective universe.
     
  9. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    By "free will" I mean the ability to makes choices (not merely ethical choices). I have the free will to look at either the palm of my hand or turn it over to look at its back. I have the free will to hold my breath until I pass out, when I no longer have free will and my autonomous nervous system makes me breathe again. It is the ability to act on my desires; which automatically assumes that I am not including those whims or wishes (hitting the game-winning home run for the Cardinals) which I doi not have the freedom of action to accomplish. So, strictly speaking my free will is manifested whenever I do something I might have otherwise not have done or vice versa.

    The key to the concept is that it is in opposition to strict determinism. Redefining it means we would have to come up with some other phrase to mean "non-deterministic behavior by human beings, in accordance with their desires, made by conscious action". Yep, we could use that instead but "free will" is a lot shorter and easier and historically valid.

    Do we have it? Yep. I started this with a couple of examples. The only alternative I know of is to believe that my conscious experience of deciding to turn my hand over to look at its back is all a fiction, in which case this post and anything we do in our lives is pointless and meaningless and valueless. We might as well all drink Jim Jones' kool-aid.

    Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
     
  10. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    Okay, that IS too long . . . keep it Free Will and I'll keep Freedom of Will ;)

    Note of Interest:
    According to American scholar Erich Fromm, humans have a need for a stable frame of reference. Religion apparently fills this need. In effect, humans crave answers to questions that no other source of knowledge has an answer to, which only religion may seem to answer. However, a sense of free will must be given in order for religion to appear healthy. An authoritarian notion of religion appears detrimental.
     
  11. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    Either way, free-will or freedom of will would entail developing control over your self: self-control. It could take a lot of work to do so.
     
  12. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

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    So then it is a move to a secluded and deserted island to be closer to the total control over self?

    Yet when control is given, control is found. When control is taken, control is lost. The slice of a solely owned pie is lesser than the slice of the pie that was shared. The freedom of a person on a deserted island is perhaps lesser than a person living in solitary confinement at a prison, since they will find little choice but to labor to find and cook their own food. Mutual control trumps self-control, and sacrifice trumps selfishness, in the measure of freedom, and free-will. :)
     
  13. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    Freedom of Will is a goal of Luciferianism and one that does take an incredible amount of work, it is a part of the individuation process towards apotheosis.
     
  14. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    I couldn't disagree more!
    First, self-control is merely a part of gaining total control over one's self.
    True control is that of sovereignty and exists within the heart of life and civilization, not in isolation.
    How is one slice of pie any lesser that the whole pie? That is selfishness and not being 'pious' :D
    How can a stranded person on an island be free? Makes little sense.
    Mutual control is just that, mutual surrender of Will, not much different than Jonestown mentality. Sacrifice is an act implemented by socio-religious minds in the attempt of further control
     
  15. IowaGuy

    IowaGuy Hunter-Gatherer

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    How does the Buddhist concept of "No Self" relate to the Luceferian goal of "freedom of will"? Are they at odds with one another, i.e. mutually exclusive? Or could they work together in harmony?
     
  16. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    Only if this introvert doesn't get the space I need. :rolleyes:

    I could agree with this in the context of the centipede's dilemma. {But that is within one individual}
     
  17. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

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    I know.

    Half of a pie made together is bigger and better than the full pie made alone.

    Exactly! Self-control is not freedom.

    Is control good, or is control bad?
     
  18. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    Unbinding the mind from being enslaved by uncontrolled desire brings liberation. Anatta is "no static essense of self that can be pinned down." Letting go of the idea of a static self makes room for the ability to change/transform and to be able to take control of oneself, component by component. You are no longer "stuck" or "bound" an idea that can't be pinned down.
     
  19. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    What is the Buddhist concept? I bet it is harmonious with what I am talking about
     
  20. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    Good . . . Bad? For whom? Again these terms are subjective.
     

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