Where? References, please.
What would the world be like without Jesus?
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The Anointed
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And what would you like referenced Thomas.
davidsheep88
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" I am " is the word for like Johh 1:1 said the word was the beggining and is a name God anmed himself He created it all for reason if the world had not Jesus we will still be plunged in the dark age and never seee the light of his words.
Er ... the material I've asked you to reference?
That "Mary and her half-brother Joseph who were both sired by Alexander Helios III" for a start.
It's not unreasonable to ask someone to substantiate the claims they make when those claims are somewhat outrageous.
IMHO the genealogy you offered is spurious, that's why I asked for references.
The Anointed
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Luke 3:23; (KJV) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli. The (AS WAS SUPPOSED) in brackets, was a later interpolation by those who would have you believe the false teaching of the so-called virgin birth.
In the different translations of the KJV into Arabic, Afrikaan, Zulu, etc and even some of the more modern English translations, such as the Good News Catholic Study Edition Bible, the words (As was supposed) have been retained, but the brackets are removed, thus by, making those words appear to be the declaration of Luke, while the serious biblical student know that they were not written by Luke, but were a later interpolation and a corruption of the Holy Scriptures, by those Christians, who refuse to accept that Jesus was not a God who became a man, but a man, born of human parents, who was later CHOSEN by the Lord our saviour ‘The Son of Man,’ as his heir and successor, and who was given divine glory, as revealed in Acts 3: 13; where it is said that the God of our ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, has given divine glory to his servant Jesus etc.
This Joseph is a descendant of Nathan the son of Uriah the Hittite and Bathsheba, who was adopted by king David after he had URIAH killed.
it was the halakhic ruling that “to be Jewish your mother had to be Jewish”, and Bathsheba the daughter of Ammiel the son of Obed-Edom a descendant of Moses, was as Jewish as any member of the tribe of Levi. This rule was applied by Ezra to all those returning from the captivity in Babylon, “to be Jewish your mother had to be", the descendants of the “foreign wives” had to remain in Babylon.
Thomas said..... IMHO the genealogy you offered is spurious, that's why I asked for references.
If you can’t accept the biblical references as given the first time, then by all means reject them, but don’t keep asking for references in the hope that they may change more to your liking, because they wont..
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There's a start. Can you reference the evidence supporting your claim that the phrase as was supposed is a later interpolation?
Yes, reference the sources, please.
OK. I gave an opinion, really to show that opinions count for nothing.
The tradition that Joachim and Anna are the parents of Mary go back to the 2nd-century Protevangelium of James and the 3rd-century Evangelium de nativitate Mariae. Both books are apocryphal. It's a tradition, but not doctrinal nor dogmatic. In the West there are numerous legends concerning the couple, not so much so in the East. The inspiration is probably the Old Testament.
Other than that, we know next to nothing of Mary's history. Mark gives us nothing. Matthew's genealogy of Jesus, is generally regarded by scholars as naming a patriarchal line. John says Mary had a sister (cf 19:25), but semantically its uncertain if this sister is Mary of Clopas, or another unnamed.
Luke has Mary a cousin of Elizabeth (1:36), the wife of Zechariah, and herself of the lineage of Aaron and so of the Tribe of Levi (1:5). Again some scholars argue the lineage of Jesus in Luke 3 is a matriarchal lineage Mary.
And yet others argue both lineages are fictitious, to provide the necessary 'credentials' ...
Nope. I specifically asked for references to show that – as stated in your post #33 "Mary was the daughter of Alexander Helios/Heli and Anna/Hanna, who was one of three elderly daughters of Yehoshua/Jesus III, who was high priest in Jerusalem from 36 to 23 BC. Anna/Hanna whose mother was ‘phanuel’ from the tribe of Asher, was given as a bride to the young Alexander Helios (Heli) and Jesus is the son of “Joseph, the son of Heli.”
And later in the same post:
"... Mary who united with her half-brother Alexander Helios to conceive and bear Jesus, the promised Messiah."
As none of this data is Scripture.
The Anointed
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The Anointed......Luke 3:23; (KJV) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli. The (AS WAS SUPPOSED) in brackets, was a later interpolation by those who would have you believe the false teaching of the so-called virgin birth.
YES.... You do realise that there are four different types of brackets and they each have slightly different uses and that round brackets are used to add an extra clause or additional information to a sentence that is usually non-essential. For example, (as was supposed)
The Anointed said: the serious biblical student know that they were not written by Luke, but were a later interpolation and a corruption of the Holy Scriptures
Luke 3 23, where the non-essential information (as was supposed) was added.
The Anointed........ Thomas said..... IMHO the genealogy you offered is spurious, that's why I asked for references.
Well, yours might count for nothing, but there are others whose opinions I hold in high esteem.
From “The Ancestors of Jesus in First and Second Century Judea BCE”
By Robert Mock M.D.
December 2007.
Book One
Chapter Two we learn that this young maiden, Miriam, was a child of sorrow. Her father, Heli, a Davidic and Hasmonean prince, called Alexander Helios III, was apparently executed, in the world where many Davidian aspirants, as the “young lions of Judah”, were eliminated by the cruel and tyrannical King Herod the Great., Etc.
A son of the famous Boethus family of seven sons, Mary’s great-great-great grandfather, arrived into Jewish history as one of the giants of the priests of the House of Zadok. The High Priest Hananeel (Ananelus) the Egyptian/Jew was privileged to sacrifice one of the nine red heifers before the temple of Herod was destroyed in 70 AD.
The great grandfather of the biblical Jesus was Yehoshua/Jesus III, who was the high priest in Jerusalem from 36 to 23 BC and is believed to have been murdered at the orders of Herod the Great. The sonless Yehoshua, had three daughters, Joanna, Elizabeth and Anna/Hanna, whose mother was from the tribe of Asher.
Knowing that his Zadokian lineage would become extinct unless his daughters were placed with future husbands according to the Torah, he married them off to chosen husbands.
Joanna, was betrothed to Joachim from the non-royal genetic lineage of David. The second daughter of Yehoshua III, was Elizabeth. This was the Elizabeth, who, at a very advanced age was to become the mother of John the Baptist in 7 BC, a year before the birth of Jesus and some 16 years after the death of her father in 23 BC, and she was betrothed to a Levite priest by the name Zacharias of the priestly course of Abijah.
The young Davidian prince Heli, [Alexander Helios III] who was the son of Mattathias ben Levi, was chosen by Yehoshua/Jesus III the high priest in Jerusalem, as the candidate to marry his daughter Hanna/Anna.
Hanna/Anna, the third daughter, was betrothed to Alexander Helios (Heli) a young Macedonian Jew, of the tribe of Judah through Nathan the Levite, who was the stepson of King David.
Yes, well the church doesn’t want anyone finding out the truth about their supposed ever virgin Mary, mother of God the creator of the cosmos, and co-redeemer with her son Jesus, of all mankind.
Matthew’s genealogy is that of Joseph ben Jacob and not of his stepson Jesus.
It is very unlikely that the aged Hanna had two daughters and more unlikely that if she did, she would have named them both ‘MARY.’
Mary of Cleophas, the mother of Jesus, is the wife of the Hebrew Joseph, the son of Heli, a Father of renowned, who was also name Cleophas, the masculine form of Cleopatra, which name in Greek means, ‘Of a renowned Father’ and also named Alphaeus the father of James the younger, the only full brother of Jesus, and the name Alphaeus, is the Aramaic for, ’Of a renowned Father.’ It was not unusual in those days for the men of Galilee to carry three names, one in Hebrew, one in Greek and one in Aramaic.
In Young's Analytical Concordance in the subject guide it is said; 'Cloephas......of a renowned Father, husband of Mary, called Alphaeus.'
Luke has Mary as a relation of Elizabeth her aunty and sister to her mother Hanna.
And they are half right, as the genealogy in Luke is the recorded lineage of Mary and her half-brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios AKA Heli, ignoring the added ‘(As was supposed) in round brackets.
And they were more than likely atheists or non believers.
The Anointed...... If you can’t accept the biblical references as given the first time...
DONE.
DONE.
DONE.
I have shown that Mary is the daughter of Alexander Helios AKA Heli and that the father of Jesus forgetting the (as was supposed) that was added in round brackets, was Joseph the son of Heli, a descendant of Nathan the son of King David.
To all who have eyes to see, all is scriptural.
YES.... You do realise that there are four different types of brackets and they each have slightly different uses and that round brackets are used to add an extra clause or additional information to a sentence that is usually non-essential. For example, (as was supposed)
The Anointed said: the serious biblical student know that they were not written by Luke, but were a later interpolation and a corruption of the Holy Scriptures
Luke 3 23, where the non-essential information (as was supposed) was added.
The Anointed........ Thomas said..... IMHO the genealogy you offered is spurious, that's why I asked for references.
Well, yours might count for nothing, but there are others whose opinions I hold in high esteem.
From “The Ancestors of Jesus in First and Second Century Judea BCE”
By Robert Mock M.D.
December 2007.
Book One
Chapter Two we learn that this young maiden, Miriam, was a child of sorrow. Her father, Heli, a Davidic and Hasmonean prince, called Alexander Helios III, was apparently executed, in the world where many Davidian aspirants, as the “young lions of Judah”, were eliminated by the cruel and tyrannical King Herod the Great., Etc.
A son of the famous Boethus family of seven sons, Mary’s great-great-great grandfather, arrived into Jewish history as one of the giants of the priests of the House of Zadok. The High Priest Hananeel (Ananelus) the Egyptian/Jew was privileged to sacrifice one of the nine red heifers before the temple of Herod was destroyed in 70 AD.
The great grandfather of the biblical Jesus was Yehoshua/Jesus III, who was the high priest in Jerusalem from 36 to 23 BC and is believed to have been murdered at the orders of Herod the Great. The sonless Yehoshua, had three daughters, Joanna, Elizabeth and Anna/Hanna, whose mother was from the tribe of Asher.
Knowing that his Zadokian lineage would become extinct unless his daughters were placed with future husbands according to the Torah, he married them off to chosen husbands.
Joanna, was betrothed to Joachim from the non-royal genetic lineage of David. The second daughter of Yehoshua III, was Elizabeth. This was the Elizabeth, who, at a very advanced age was to become the mother of John the Baptist in 7 BC, a year before the birth of Jesus and some 16 years after the death of her father in 23 BC, and she was betrothed to a Levite priest by the name Zacharias of the priestly course of Abijah.
The young Davidian prince Heli, [Alexander Helios III] who was the son of Mattathias ben Levi, was chosen by Yehoshua/Jesus III the high priest in Jerusalem, as the candidate to marry his daughter Hanna/Anna.
Hanna/Anna, the third daughter, was betrothed to Alexander Helios (Heli) a young Macedonian Jew, of the tribe of Judah through Nathan the Levite, who was the stepson of King David.
Yes, well the church doesn’t want anyone finding out the truth about their supposed ever virgin Mary, mother of God the creator of the cosmos, and co-redeemer with her son Jesus, of all mankind.
Matthew’s genealogy is that of Joseph ben Jacob and not of his stepson Jesus.
It is very unlikely that the aged Hanna had two daughters and more unlikely that if she did, she would have named them both ‘MARY.’
Mary of Cleophas, the mother of Jesus, is the wife of the Hebrew Joseph, the son of Heli, a Father of renowned, who was also name Cleophas, the masculine form of Cleopatra, which name in Greek means, ‘Of a renowned Father’ and also named Alphaeus the father of James the younger, the only full brother of Jesus, and the name Alphaeus, is the Aramaic for, ’Of a renowned Father.’ It was not unusual in those days for the men of Galilee to carry three names, one in Hebrew, one in Greek and one in Aramaic.
In Young's Analytical Concordance in the subject guide it is said; 'Cloephas......of a renowned Father, husband of Mary, called Alphaeus.'
Luke has Mary as a relation of Elizabeth her aunty and sister to her mother Hanna.
And they are half right, as the genealogy in Luke is the recorded lineage of Mary and her half-brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios AKA Heli, ignoring the added ‘(As was supposed) in round brackets.
And they were more than likely atheists or non believers.
The Anointed...... If you can’t accept the biblical references as given the first time...
DONE.
DONE.
DONE.
I have shown that Mary is the daughter of Alexander Helios AKA Heli and that the father of Jesus forgetting the (as was supposed) that was added in round brackets, was Joseph the son of Heli, a descendant of Nathan the son of King David.
To all who have eyes to see, all is scriptural.
Not quite. The brackets were added – although not in all English translations, but your post implies the brackets and the phrase bracketed is an interpolation – it's not – so your claim about false teaching is itself false.
Ah ... the biblesearchers website? Really? Not an ounce of credibility ...
Who? There is an Alexander Helios, a Ptolemaic prince, son of Cleopatra VII and Roman triumvir Mark Antony. I can find no other reference to that name, so assume it's a fiction.
No you haven't. You've pointed to a website that is frankly incredulous – a goldmine of spurious nonsense without any support or credibility.
@The Anointed –
Sorry if the above comes across a bit harsh, but there it is. If you want, we can examine the material on the biblesearchers site, and I can point the reasons for my doubts about its credibility.
Sorry if the above comes across a bit harsh, but there it is. If you want, we can examine the material on the biblesearchers site, and I can point the reasons for my doubts about its credibility.
Faithfulservant
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I was under the impression that there was no punctuation in ancient Greek. Also everything I'm reading from scholars is that the writer of Luke and Acts was the gentile physician Luke. I think it's easy to find someone that supports your theories if you look hard enough.
Does there exist a sentence or theory that this doesn't apply?
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Ha! Depends on if it's theory or truth. I know my truth.
Me thinks most also can attest to that. Or maybe just many, but most of that many would find plenty of the others who "know their truth" that their truths don't jive.
Tis why I surely don't know (that there is a G!d, or what the hereafter will bring, or...or...or)
Btw the theory of gravity is truth eh?
What must rise, must fall
And what goes on in your life
Is writing on the wall
If all things must fall
Why build a miracle at all?
If all things must pass
Even a miracle won't last
What goes up, must come down
What must stand alone?
And what goes on, in your mind
Is turning into stone
If all things must fall
Why build a miracle at all?
If all things must pass
Even a pyramid won't last
How can you be so sure?
How do you know what the earth will endure?
How can you be so sure
That the wonders you've made in you life
Will be seen by the millions
Who'll follow to visit the site of your dream?
What goes up, must come down
What goes round, must come round
What's been lost, must be found
What must rise, must fall
And what goes on in your life
Is writing on the wall
If all things must fall
Why build a miracle at all?
If all things must pass
Even a miracle won't last
What goes up, must come down
What must stand alone?
And what goes on, in your mind
Is turning into stone
If all things must fall
Why build a miracle at all?
If all things must pass
Even a pyramid won't last
How can you be so sure?
How do you know what the earth will endure?
How can you be so sure
That the wonders you've made in you life
Will be seen by the millions
Who'll follow to visit the site of your dream?
What goes up, must come down
What goes round, must come round
What's been lost, must be found
The Anointed
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Prince Alexander Helios III son of Cleopatra and Mark Antony was adopted out after the suicidal death of his parents, with no evidence whatsoever as to what became of him.
It appears that Prince Alexander Helios III had the same aspirations and hopes for “Israel” as the high priest within the temple at Jerusalem, who was Yehoshua/Jesus III, the high priest in Jerusalem from 36 to 23 BC, which was to establish a descendant of King David on the throne of Israel
This was in the era in which parents chose the husband of their daughters, and Heli was chosen by the High Priest Yeshua III, as the one to sire the future King through his elderly daughter Hanna/Anna. Now this high priest was the grandson of Boethus, the Alexandrian Zadokian priest that King Herod in 37 BCE asked to return to Jerusalem in order to restore the Zadokian dynastic reign again over the office of the high priest.
But Herod’s motives for so doing were in fact more sinister, for he eventually plotted to eliminate the Maccabees from holding either royal or priestly offices in Jerusalem and eliminate their presence entirely from Judea.
Was Prince Heli, or his father, Mattathias ben Levi, approached by the high priest for the young Davidian was a potential candidate to marry one of his three daughters, Hannah/Anna?
Though the evidence is only circumstantial, it is suggested by David Hughes and other genealogist that the wife of Matthat ben Levi, called Esther of Jerusalem, was actually the Jewish name of the last Maccabee Queen, whose later Greek regnal name was Queen Alexandra II. Before Alexandra became a Maccabee Queen with her 2nd marriage to Maccabee King Alexander II, her cousin, and later her 3rd marriage to Maccabee King Antigonus, also her cousin, she was married to a Nasi and Prince of Israel, called Mattathias.
Was this Mattathias also the person as Matthat ben Levi, the father of Heli, the grandfather of Mary, and the great grandfather of Yehoshua (Jesus)? The evidence suggests the affirmative.
The name of the children of this union between Mattathias, the Nasi and Prince of Israel and Princess Alexandra II, prior to 49 BCE was Prince Alexander III Helios (the Biblical Heli) and his sister, Princess Alexandra III. This young Davidian and Maccabee princess later became the wife of Ptolemy Bar Mennius, a Babylonian Exilarch whose descendants are traced to Europe today.
We ask again, was this Davidian Nasi Prince Mattat ben Levi, the same Nasi as Prince Mattathias, who married the Maccabee Princess, and future Maccabee Queen, as the daughter of the Maccabee Priest-King Hyrcanus II and through this union had a son called Prince Alexander III “Helios”?
Because he was of Idumaean/Hittite/Macedonian descent, and hated by the Jews, Herod the Great attempted to appease them by marrying a Jewess by the name Mariamne, a descendant of the Maccabees family of Jewish patriots, whom he actually loved. Mariamne, was the daughter of Alexandra, an heir from the old ruling Hasmonaean line had insisted that her brother be appointed high priest,
Prince Alexander Helios III, the Grandfather of Jesus, was the son of the future Maccabee Queen Alexandra II, who at this time was known by her Jewish name, Esther of Jerusalem. Heli, the shortened nickname for Helios (“The Sun”), was a descendant, of Mattathias, the Nasi and Prince of Israel
His 1st wife, Esther of Jerusalem, became the mother of Heli ben Mattat or Prince Alexander Helios III. He became the father of Mary, the mother of Jesus. Esther of Jerusalem can be identified as the future Maccabee Queen known by her Greek name as Queen Alexandra II, who was the great grandmother of Yeshua (Jesus).
When the messenger of God told the young 13-14-year-old Mary that her aged aunty Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant and that she herself was going to become pregnant and bear a son, who God would make a KING just like his ANCESTOR David was, Mary then packed her bag and with her Zealot chaperone she traveled down south into the land of Benjamin to the house of her aunty Elizabeth, where many family members and friends had gathered to rejoice with the future mother of John the Baptist.
And the moment that Mary walked through the door, Luke 1; 41.
LUKE 1; 41; When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby moved within her. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and said in a loud voice, “You are the most blessed of all women, and blessed is the child you will bear! Why should this great thing happen to me, that my Lord's [kings] mother comes to visit me? For as soon as I heard your greeting, the baby within me jumped with gladness. How happy you are to believe that the Lord's message to you will come true!”
How did Elizabeth know what the messenger of God had said to Mary while she was still up north in Nazareth, and was young Joseph the son of HELI, with the visitors in the house, was Elizabeth among the conspirators to put a Jew on the throne and free themselves from the yoke of Rome? Three months later, the unmarried pregnant Mary returned to Nazareth where she was accepted by Joseph ben Jacob a descendant of the cursed genetic line of Jehoiachin, to be his wife, this would have been a marriage of conveyance as Herod’s advisors would never see a descendant of Jehoiachin as a threat to Herod’s throne.
Concerning Jehoiachin in Jeremiah 22, 30;
Listen to what the LORD has said:
“This man is condemned to lose his children,
to be a man who will never succeed.
He will have no descendants
who will rule in Judah
as David's successors.
I, the LORD, have spoken.
But if they knew that the child she was carrying was a descendant of Alexander Helios, Mary’s womb would have been ripped open.
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Where d'you get the III from? I never see him named the third.
It appears so where?
I don't know. Any evidence that he was?
What evidence.
Ah, you know that Hughes himself has declared his stuff purely speculative and non-authoritative. There's no actual evidence to support his ideas, and his genealogy of British Kings, etc (from Caesar to Elizabeth I) is pure fancy ...
Alexander Helios was born in Alexandria. Octavian defeated his parents and after their suicide took him, his sister and his brother to Rome. Octavian gave the children to his elder sister to be raised under her guardianship in Rome. His sister later married When Juba II and they moved to Mauretania (Algeria-Morocco) and named their new capital Caesaria in honour of Octavian, now Augustus.
There is no record of Alexander Helios ever having left Rome.
There is no record of Alexander Helios ever having left Rome.
The Anointed
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There is no record anywhere of Alexander Helios III after he was adopted out to the sister of Augustus,
This would imply there is a record prior that you glean this info?
The Anointed
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Well now, who would have thunk that. Because there is no record of what became of him, our wil believes that this would imply there is a record of him. Please put your hands together for our very own wil.
One good sarcastic remark deserves another don't you think wil, what is it they say, 'As ye sow, so shall ye reap.'
Of course, PRIOR to his adoption there is a record of him. In late 34 BC, at the Donations of Alexandria, shortly after Anthony had conquered Armenia, Cleopatra and Caesarion the son of Julius Caesar were crowned rulers of Egypt and Cyprus. Alexander Helios, their six-year-old son, was crowned ruler of Aemenia, Media and Parthia; Cleopatra Selene II, Heli’s six-year-old twin sister, was crowned ruler of Cyrenaica and Libya, and Ptolemy Philadelphus, the younger of their three biological children together, was crowned ruler of Phoenicia, Syria and Cilicia.
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