Did Lazerus' soul rise when he died?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by tommy, Nov 18, 2005.

  1. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    The bit on purgatory and the spiritual afterlife has got me wondering why Lazerus was resurrected to Earth . For example, when Jesus raised Lazerus from the dead, did he do him justice bringing him back to an earthly world if he had gone to a better spiritual world?

    If Lazarus went to a better place when he died why did Jesus cry when he died? If Lazerus was in a better spiritual place to be with God and then Jesus brought him back here, wouldn't Lazarus have been upset when he returned to an earthly flesh. Why did Jesus say to the apostles that Lazarus went to "sleep" if he rose to a spiritual world or a purgatory upon death?

    If Jesus' good friend Lazerus came back from this spiritual place and came back here to earth, to a worse place then a spiritual Heaven, wouldn't he have said, "Jesus, why did you do this and bring me back here I was in Heaven with God (in fact Lazarus was a good friend of Jesus and most likely would have headed to a better place in you believe in a spiritual Heaven)"? Is this a sign that resurrection means that we are resurrected to an earthly paradise??? We only read of a handful of resurrections in the Bible and they were all brought back here to Earth. What was God's intention for Earth then? Why weren't the resurrections made to Heaven or those who were resurrected did not come back with glorious stories of the spiritual places they were after the fleshly death?

    Here's the scriptures below from John 11.

    John 11

    11 He said these things, and after this he said to them: “Laz´a·rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.”
    12 Therefore the disciples said to him: “Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well.”
    13 Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 At that time, therefore, Jesus said to them outspokenly: “Laz´a·rus has died,
    21 Martha therefore said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here my brother would not have died. 22 And yet at present I know that as many things as you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?” .
    34 and he said: “Where have YOU laid him?” They said to him: “Lord, come and see.” 35 Jesus gave way to tears.
    43 And when he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice: “Laz´a·rus, come on out!” 44 The [man] that had been dead came out with his feet and hands bound with wrappings, and his countenance was bound about with a cloth. Jesus said to them: “Loose him and let him go.” Peace and love your way, your brother in Christ, tommy
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2005
  2. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    hey tommy:)

    i have some thoughts on this one. just need a few todays to get them together. i like to compare it to Luke 19.
     
  3. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hey Bandit, Thanks for responding to this one. I had a similar version of this one up on another site over the summer and couldn't get a a single response.

    The topic here is really about how Jesus said that when we die, we really go to sleep until the resurrection. I found it to be in my opinion a false teaching that the soul rises upon death and have only quotes from the Bible to back this one up. Here's a few more that I will quote from the 1901 ASV Bible

    Psalms 13.3 Consider and answer me, O Jehovah my God: Lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death.

    The Acts of the Apostles 7.60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he said this he fell asleep. And Saul was consenting unto his death.

    1 Corinthians 15.6 Then he appeared to about 500 brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep.

    1 Corinthians 15.51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed.

    I find this fascinating the continual use of how sleep is related to death and not the rising of ones soul to a spiritual realm. In my opinion this is a great mystery of the afterlife and does contrast with the view that the soul rises upon death, but rather rises during the resurrection and we are merely in a state of nothing (sleep) until that time. It is comforting to me that we don't need to fear or pray to the dead. We only need to pray to God through Jesus and therefore I believe it to be a myth that the dead is floating around someplace else in a spiritual world (like our relatives that have gone before us) watching us from above. Have a great day, Peace and Love, your brother in Christ, tommy
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2005
  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I think you've stated the most common misnomer in Christianity. 'He's gone on to see his loved ones', "She is with the Father now".

    Doesn't seem right, not according to what we read.

    But the sleep, and the question where does the soul go while it is waiting...does it reside with the body that has gone back to the earth over the hundreds of years...does it reside with the spread ashes...

    And then there is the question on reincarnation, a popular concept in that day, and the references to same in the bible. Sins of a child, who do we say Jesus is, etc....

    There is another story out there that the essenes were practicing a meditation technique (drug induced?) a trance which slowed their breathing and heart rate so that it caused a near death experience and under which they received insights and visions. They often appeared not just asleep but dead as they would not wake for a few days.

    Some posit this as an explanation for not only Lazarus, but also the resurection.
     
  5. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hi Wil:

    Thank you for responding to this thread. I have spent the past few years studying this issue very on a fairly intense scale.

    I found that the only way to learn about what Jesus' taught is from direct quotes he gave us in the Bible, regardless of the translation we read. As stated above there are many quotes that lead me to believe in my opinion the the soul goes to "sleep" upon demise of the human flesh. I am looking for quotes in the Bible that would teach us that the soul leaves the body and goes somewhere else upon death of the human body. I can't find one.

    For example: Psalms 37.29 "The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it".

    Notice this does not say the righteous will live forever in heaven. I am convinced the purpose of the earth that God intended for Adam and Eve will be carried out with everlasting life here on earth according to this scripture other then Jesus' heavenly government he will be King of.

    2 Peter 3:13 "But there are nev heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell".

    You see again it says the righteousness will "dwell" on earth.

    Here is another to think about: Revelation 21:3 ...Look! The tent of God is with mankind and he will reside with them and they will be his people.

    Notice that this doesn't say mankind will reside with God (in Heaven) but says the tent (home) is with mankind and God will reside (live) with them. I find this very interesting that God will live will us rather than we will live with Him.

    Here's another: John 5:29 ...and come out, those who did good things to a ressurection of life..." Notice John says plainly that the resurrection will be one of life and NOT death.

    Peace to all, tommy
     
  6. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello tommy nice to meet you.



    Mankind was created to live on earth and to this end Christ will return and restore it and He will live here with us. Until then...

    People who die go to one of two places fully conscious.

    2 Peter 2:9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

    Although Hell is empty at the moment God holds the spirits of dead sinners in the condition they will face when Hell is opened for business.

    ...You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect... Heb 12:23 says that we, the Church of the firstborn, meet in joyful assembly in Heaven along with all the Godly angels of God.

    Death is seperation from God and this can never be for those Christ gave His life for. Paul says, "Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." 2 Cor 5:6-8.

    What you think?

    john.
     
  7. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hi John:

    Welcome to CR and thanks for putting your first post on this thread. I like what everyone has said here so far and don't feel all along here.

    I agree that when our flesh ceases to exist we have the opportunity to go to one of two places. It's not heaven and hell.

    From what I have stated above the righteous who exercised faith in Jesus as the Christ and Son of God will be raised during the resurrection in the final days. I do not truly know when the heavenly class (the priests and kings) who will rule us with our King Jesus Christ. Perhaps that happens upon their death. I think that when I think of how Peter, Paul and the Martrys suffered a cruel death and endurred persecussion then to live and reign with Jesus in his chosen heavenly "one" government. Those are the two.

    The unrighteous will return to dust and forego the conditional prosect of everlasting life. In other words cease to exist. They do not go somewhere other than return to nothing "dust". The soveriegn God our almighty creator in my opinion does not torment a soul in a fiery hell. This notion came about because in the early days when the Bible was written the term Gehenna was used which was the fiery pit when one burned their trash. Our true God is a loving God who dearly loves us all and wants us to be free of our inherent sin and love Him with all of our body, mind and soul. I do not believe that our pateint loving God want to be feared that he will burn a soul (that he created) in a fiery hell pit forever. Therefore, there is a hell which simply means you loose your chance of everlasting life, but it is not an actual place one goes to, it is simply the state of non-existance and no hope of being able to "get back" to the hope of everlasting life with Jesus.

    I hope you all have a nice four day break with your families. I'm digging my time off after being on the road for a few days. Peace, Tommy
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2005
  8. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    The Bible declares however that we are spirit, soul and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23) and that, for a Christian, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8. In Philippians 1:23 Paul says he had a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. He did not say that he had a desire to die and be non-existent until the resurrection. He had a desire to be with Christ, not to lose time.

    This Scriptural information harmonizes with hundreds of testimonies from Christians of being outside their body or seeing paradise. It may not fit with the words of Ecclesiastes "The dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5), but then again, Ecclesiastes was written only from the perspective of what may be known "under the sun". The rest of the verse says, "and they [the dead] have no more reward" (which denies the doctrine of eternal rewards for God's people). Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon in his later years as a backslider, and like the Book of Job, contains the sayings of men with less than perfect knowledge.

    Ecclesiastes also says that "All is vanity" and "Money is the answer for everything" - things which are only true when you take God out of the picture.

    You said you were looking for some verses that countered the point of the sleep of death.

    my thoughts

    v/r

    Q
     
  9. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hello Joshua:

    Hope all is well out on the deep blue sea and always good to hear the Catholic Soldier's perspective. I think many of God's Soldiers were part of the annointed class (the 144,000 who rule in Heaven in a spiritual heavenly body.

    Paul was one of God's Soldiers and I have no doubt his soul was raised along with Peter and many others to be included in God's heavenly government that is no part of this world, or individual nation.

    Revelation 20:5 says "The rest of the dead did come to life until the 1,000 years were ended. This is the first resurrection".

    Notice again here they are referred to dead and resurrection is pointed out at a specific time as opposed to when an individual dies.

    Psalms 49:15 "However, God Himself will redeem my soul from the hand of Sheol, For he will receive me".

    Here Sheol is the grave of mankind awaiting judgement on the day of the resurrection to come out of the state of sleep and be with Jesus at that time.

    1 Corinthians 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead..."

    Here again we hear about the resurrection of the dead. Therefore, my arguement is that in my opinion the dead are sleeping awaiting the resurrection and have not gone somewhere else to a spiritual place where they look down upon the living. They are dead, asleep, however your point about the ruling class and Paul wanting to be with Jesus is well taken. Peace, tommy
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2005
  10. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Thanks for your thoughts here Q. I wanted to add a few more of mine.

    Pauls writings in the first century were geared towards many who were of the annointed class. I found quotes in Acts that offers solid proof that not oll souls rise upon death and this is reserved for the ones who rule with Jesus in heaven.

    Acts 2:29 Men, brothers, it is allowable to speak with freeness of speech to you concerning the family head David, that he both deceased and was buried and his tomb is among us to this day. Acts 2:34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, God said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand" 35"until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet".

    This would mean to me that enemy would be Satan and his soul would not rise until Satan was driven out. Just my thoughts, enjoy the rest of the long weekend, tommy
     
  11. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Unfortunately what you imply is that there is a select few that get to be immediately with the Lord. That is unacceptable by human standards. See man was promised to be with the Lord, if we accepted the Lord. There was no (in time). It was now, and here after. To attempt to tell man that this is a mistake, that only a few will be with the Lord now, and the rest must wait in death, is Ludicrous.

    That is a violation of the very tennants of Christianity.

    What you propose as truth, is hard to take. In fact it is unacceptable. Whether or not it is true is irrelevant. I will not live my life only knowing that I will lie in state in a grave, until such time as the Lord decides I will rise.

    I didn't become a Christian based on a lottery. I was promised new life. Hence I move based on that new life promise. There is no lottery Tommy. I'm sorry if you think so.

    1914 may have been the day the world stood still, but it was not the day the world ended. It is the day World War One began. And it is not the beginning of the end.

    my thoughts.

    v/r

    Q
     
  12. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello tommy.

    We don't have Thanks Giving in the UK. Have a nice break.

    I don't know what those who have died and gone to be with Jesus know about what is happening on earth. I don't think it is mentioned anywhere but the fact that the dead saints are getting impatient is obvious, Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

    Quahom says: (Hello Quahom) That is a violation of the very tennants of Christianity.
    Matt 22:32 `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

    You are mistaken. David said he would live in the house of the Lord forever but this would not be so if in fact he has been asleep, none existant, since his death.
    HEB 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

    Perfection will only be man's, as men and not disembodied spirits, after the return of Christ when He will bring back with Him those who have died in Him. 1 Thess 4:14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    If He is going to bring those with Him they must exist and After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words. 1 Thess 4:17-18.

    It is for our encouragement that we know that those who have died will return with Christ and if they are to return with Christ they must be with Him now. Then comes the resurrection.

    These scriptures are contrary to what you are saying can you explain them please? REV 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"

    The spirits of dead men speak and move about. John 11:26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

    There is another Lazarus mentioned in scripture which spells out Hell in graphic terms. Luke 16:19-31 describes the condition of Hell. Hell is real and is meant to be taken as real. Hell is not yet occupied but the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. How can their punishment continue if they have ceased to be? If death is sleep how could Jesus resurrect Himself?

    john.
     
  13. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hi John: Thanks for your detailed response. I researched this topic yesterday and found some interesting stuff for those here who don't mind doing a little reading on this topic.




    A Theological Dilemma




    "THE idea of the immortality of the soul and faith in the resurrection of the dead . . . are two concepts on completely different planes, between which a choice needs to be made." These words of Philippe Menoud sum up the dilemma faced by Protestant and Catholic theologians over the condition of the dead. The Bible speaks of the hope of a resurrection "at the last day." (John 6:39, 40, 44, 54) But the hope of many believers, says theologian Gisbert Greshake, "rests in the immortality of the soul, which separates from the body at death and returns to God, while hope in the resurrection has largely, if not completely, disappeared."​

    In that case, a thorny problem arises, explains Bernard Sesboüé: "What is the condition of the dead during the ‘interval’ between their bodily death and final resurrection?" That question seems to have been at the center of theological debate in the last few years. What led to it? And more important, what is the real hope for the dead?




    Origin​
    and Development of a Dilemma







    The first Christians had clear ideas on the matter. They knew from the Scriptures that the dead are not conscious of anything, for the Hebrew Scriptures say: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . There is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) Those Christians hoped for a resurrection to take place during the future "presence of the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) They did not expect to be conscious somewhere else while they awaited that moment. Joseph Ratzinger, present prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, says: "No doctrinal affirmation existed in the ancient Church on the immortality of the soul."

    However, Nuovo dizionario di teologia, explains that when reading Church Fathers, such as Augustine or Ambrose, "we become aware of something new with respect to Biblical tradition—the emergence of a Greek eschatology, fundamentally different from that of Judeo-Christians." This new teaching was based on "the immortality of the soul, on individual judgment with reward or punishment immediately after death." Thus, a question was raised about the "intermediate state": If the soul survives the death of the body, what happens to it while it awaits the resurrection at the "last day"? This is a dilemma theologians have struggled to resolve.
    In the sixth century C.E., Pope Gregory I argued that at death souls go immediately to the place of their destiny. Pope John XXII of the 14th century was convinced that the dead would receive their ultimate reward on Judgment Day. Pope Benedict XII, however, refuted his predecessor. In the papal bull Benedictus Deus (1336), he decreed that "the souls of the deceased enter a condition of bliss [heaven], purging [purgatory], or damnation [hell] immediately after death, only to be reunited with their resurrected bodies at the end of the world."
    Despite controversy and debate, this has been the position of churches of Christendom for centuries, although the Protestant and Orthodox churches in general do not believe in purgatory. However, from the end of the last century, an increasing number of scholars have pointed out the non-Biblical origin of the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, and as a consequence, "modern theology now often tries to view man as a unity that is totally dissolved in death." (The Encyclopedia of Religion) Bible commentators, therefore, find it difficult to justify the existence of an "intermediate state." Does the Bible speak about it, or does it offer a different hope?




    Did​
    Paul Believe in an "Intermediate State"?





    The Catechism of the Catholic Church says: "To rise with Christ, we must die with Christ: we must ‘be away from the body and at home with the Lord’. [2 Corinthians 5:8] In that ‘departure’ which is death the soul is separated from the body. [Philippians 1:23] It will be reunited with the body on the day of resurrection of the dead." But in the texts here quoted, does the apostle Paul say that the soul survives the death of the body and then awaits the "Last Judgment" to be reunited with the body?​
    At 2 Corinthians 5:1, Paul refers to his death and speaks of an "earthly house" that is "dissolved." Was he thinking of the body deserted by its immortal soul? No. Paul believed that man is a soul, not that he has a soul. (Genesis 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:45) Paul was a spirit-anointed Christian whose hope, like that of his first-century brothers, was ‘reserved in the heavens.’ (Colossians 1:5; Romans 8:14-18) His ‘earnest desire,’ therefore, was to be resurrected to heaven as an immortal spirit creature at God’s appointed time. (2 Corinthians 5:2-4) Speaking of this hope, he wrote: "We shall all be changed . . . during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed."—1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.
    At 2 Corinthians 5:8, Paul says: "We are of good courage and are well pleased rather to become absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord." Some believe that these words refer to an intermediate state of waiting. Such ones refer also to Jesus’ promise to his faithful followers that he was going to prepare a place in which to ‘receive them home to himself.’ But when would such prospects be realized? Christ said that it would be when he ‘came again’ in his future presence. (John 14:1-3) Similarly, at 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, Paul said that the hope common to anointed Christians was to inherit a heavenly dwelling. This would come about, not through some presumed immortality of the soul, but through a resurrection during Christ’s presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44) Exegete Charles Masson concludes that 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 "can be well understood then without having to resort to the hypothesis of an ‘intermediate state.’"
    At Philippians 1:21, 23, Paul says: "In my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain. I am under pressure from these two things; but what I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, to be sure, is far better." Does Paul here refer to an "intermediate state"? Some think so. However, Paul says that he was put under pressure by two possibilities—life or death. "But what I do desire," he added, mentioning a third possibility, "is the releasing and the being with Christ." A "releasing" to be with Christ immediately after death? Well, as already seen, Paul believed that faithful anointed Christians would be resurrected during the presence of Christ. Therefore, he must have had in mind the events of that period.
    This can be seen from his words found at Philippians 3:20, 21 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Such a "releasing" during the presence of Christ Jesus would enable Paul to receive the reward that God had prepared for him. That this was his hope is seen in his words to the young man Timothy: "From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation."—2 Timothy 4:8.




    The​
    Resurrection—A Splendid Bible Truth





    The first Christians considered the resurrection an event that would begin during Christ’s presence, and they received strength and comfort from this splendid Bible truth. (Matthew 24:3; John 5:28, 29; 11:24, 25; 1 Corinthians 15:19, 20; 1 Thessalonians 4:13) They faithfully awaited that future joy, rejecting apostate teachings of an immortal soul.—Acts 20:28-30; 2 Timothy 4:3, 4; 2 Peter 2:1-3.​
    Of course, the resurrection is not limited to Christians with a heavenly hope. (1 Peter 1:3-5) The patriarchs and other ancient servants of God exercised faith in Jehovah’s ability to bring the dead back to life on the earth. (Job 14:14, 15; Daniel 12:2; Luke 20:37, 38; Hebrews 11:19, 35) Even those billions who over the course of centuries never knew God have the opportunity of coming back to life in an earthly paradise, since "there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15; Luke 23:42, 43) Is this not a thrilling prospect?
    Rather than have us believe that suffering and death will always be, Jehovah points to the time when "the last enemy, death," will be eliminated forever and faithful humankind will live eternally on an earth restored to Paradise. (1 Corinthians 15:26; John 3:16; 2 Peter 3:13) How marvelous it will be to see our loved ones come back to life! How much better this sure hope is than the hypothetical immortality of the human soul—a doctrine based, not on God’s Word, but on Greek philosophy! If you base your hope on God’s sure promise, you too can be sure that soon "death will be no more"!—Revelation 21:3-5.

     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2005
  14. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hi Q:

    These are my opinions and naturally I am putting these up for debate and arguement. It is helpful to me also to read Scripture like the three you put up from Pauls letters. Thanks.

    I think the prospect of the afterlife is a wonderful hope. I also think that if sleep is 10, 100, or 1000 years it will be a blink in time and we will not be aware of the time gap. Time to God I believe is a flash in time and the virtue is the patience for the enduring to enjoy the life God intended for earth when he originally created the earth for Adam and Eve and His soverignty to be the almightly God was challenged. Peace and Love, tommy
     
  15. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    David knew he would live in the house of the Lord forever did he not? Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life and I shall live in the house of the Lord forever. He was not looking forward to a time when he would live there but live there forever as he wrote.
    Samuel, 1 Sam 28:15, was brought back from the dead and this would contradict Ecclesiastes if Ecclesiastes was to be taken aface value: For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing...
    If you wish to take this statement at face value then you must believe that there is no resurrection because the rest of the verse says: they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
    Which was a Sadducee belief.
    For us to be away from the Lord would be a failure on His part because He says love never fails. If a separation between us ever happened that would be a failure of love. It would contradict `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

    But only if you ignore the point made by Paul that he would be at home with the Lord when away from the body. Can a non-existence exist at home? Where Jesus is there is home.

    2 Cor 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.

    "No. Paul believed that man is a soul, not that he has a soul." Paul never believed any such thing did he?

    How can you say it was a bible truth that brought comfort and it was not a bible truth?

    The resurrection involves the faithful and the ungodly,

    Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

    As for the OT saints, they were Christians just as us but looking towards the cross whereas we look back to it. JOB 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.

    JN 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

    john.
     
  16. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hello Q.

    These thoughts I put up are my opinions and naturally I put them up for a good debate and arguement on the scriptures. Thanks for putting up the three quotes from Pauls letters they are helpful to me in researching how opinions have been formed on the afterlife.

    I think the prospect of the afterlife is a wonderful hope. Whether we have to wait ten, 100 or 1,000 years to be with Christ it will be a blink in time. It is my opinion that time is insignificant to God. This wait is a result of God's soveriegnty be questioned by the serpent in the Garden of Eden. I do believe God's original intention for the earth will be accomplished in due time. Those exercising faith in Jesus and showing love for God with all their heart, mind and soul will be there. We have Adam and Eve to thank for the wait, but I do believe we won't even notive the wait because sleep is unaware of time. Patience may be something worth waiting for. Peace, tommy
     
  17. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    John: You have some good thoughts here. I have a few thoughts I want to post a bit later on your questions. Thanks for being patient, tommy
     
  18. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    I believe David will live in the house of the lord forever. As part of the heavenly class or at the resurrection? All we can do is quote from what we learn in Bible, like Acts 29 "...concerning the family head of David, that he both deceased and was burried and his tomb is among us to this day". Acts 34 "Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, "God said to my lord" sit at my right hand 35. until I place your enemies as a stool at your feet". It says here that Dadid did not ascend to the Heavens does it not and what is the point in time when God will place His enemies as a stool for his feet"?
    As I stated earlier in this thread Jesus told the apostles that Lazarus was "dead". My last quote said David had was "deceased". This is not to be confused with the state of Hades, which was the state of returning to dust like Adam when he ceased to exist (that is not the death I am referring too). Were talking about true followers of Jesus and faithful servants of God and death would not be forever, they were in Sheol like both Lazerus and even Jesus was for three days before rising. We do learn of the first resurrection when the righteous return and as far as who is the annointed class an individual does not know but has only Scripture to learn from. He is the God of the living and that is why I believe that other than Jesus' ruling heavenly government we return to the living right here on earth, more then a spiritual being. We have to pay first for Adams sins since Jesus gave his blood to save us for nothing he owed, but something we did not have the ability to pay back and now we do and that is what we all have to pay first, "death" something we all experience.



    Just like Lazerus was sleeping he was eventually with Jesus. Non-existence does not equal sleeping. Non-existance is the state Adam was in who had no chance to get back. If we repent we can get back because Jesus died for us. I am not saying Jesus' ruling class (to eventually elimate Satan on earth) is not with Jesus in a heavenly spiritual body, they probably are right now and ruling with Jesus as King. Do remember that many first century Christians were part of the annointed class that would be part of Jesus' ruling class of 144,000, which is an actualy number.



    I do believe this. Jesus said to the apostles when Lazerus died and thought Jesus meant he was sleeping when Jesus said he was going to awaken Lazerus that Lazerus "had died". This death was not permanent and Jesus awoke him from the sleep. I don't recall reading anything that Lazerus had gone anywhere, but was just sleeping, thats all, a state of nothing until Jesus awoke him to be with him and we don't learn from Lazerus' death anything about rising to a spiritual reahlm, just returning to earth. I think the human fear is that many years could go on before the resurrection and I don't find that a fear, it will be a quick flash in time to someone in Sheol sleeping. Peace, tommy
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2005
  19. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    If this is true tommy then how did Jesus rise Himself from the dead?

    Adam and Eve had a blood sacrifice for them how do you say they are unforgiven?
    GE 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

    john.
     
  20. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hey John:

    Remember that Jesus did not have the power to perform miracles until be was baptised around age 29. The power to do these miracles came from God who is a seperate and distinct entity from Jesus, his Father, who Jesus said is "greater" than him John 14:28"...because the Father is greater than I am". Jesus did not raise himself, but rather this miracle came from God, similar to how Elijah raised the little girl who died about 400 BC and Elisha. (1Ki 17:17-24; 2Ki 4:32-37; 13:20, 21).

    Geneiss 3:19 tells us that God was very hurt when Adam allowed His soveriegnty to become in question to his evil foe, satan the devil, the fallen angel. Jehovah God said to Adam, By the sweat of your face will you earn your food, until you return to the ground, as you were taken from it. For dust you are and to dust you shall return".

    Here we learn Adams eternal fate. He clearly returned to dust with no ability of everlasting life. Peace, tommy
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2005

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