Respectful questions on a difficult subject

[Muslimwoman]

I would suggest to you to read the Qur'an yourself first :O)

wa aleikum salaam

No idea how I missed your post when I last visited this thread, sorry.

The above comment was not about the issue of homosexuality, it was about the intolerence being shown to non Muslims on our board. Do you believe we, as Muslims, are taught to name call and insult people to put accross our beliefs? If a Muslim is filled with such anger and hatred is it not better that they read the Quran, to ease their mind, until they learn to control their anger?

As for my views on homosexuality - Of course I am against it, as instructed by Allah (just look at the story of Lut) but this does not mean that I agree with verbal or physical harrassment or abuse of homosexuals. They must be treated with kindness, tolerence and offered help. A common argument is that "Allah made us this way" but this is simply trying to make Allah responsible for a persons lifestyle choice. If Allah 'made people this way' why would He destroy the people in the story of Lut? The other argument is "it is a test from Allah" and this may be correct but surely the way to 'pass' the test is to say no to sin, not carry on sinning and blame Allah?

We must accept Allah's instruction in all things:

Lo! ye come with lust unto men instead of women. Nay, but ye are wanton folk.” (Quran: 7:80-81)

There are many things in our religion which I believe are man made and are not contained in the Quran but this subject is dealt with in the Quran, so no matter how much we try to avoid the issue it was made haram by Allah. What is important is how we choose to treat people who are confused about their sexuality, it is not for us to 'judge' them or call them names.

I think one interesting thing to consider is why in Islam we are taught to be modest in dress even with people of the same sex (e.g., when swimming or in our homes). This may seem oppressive and silly to some but surely it is a blessing from our Beloved Prophet (pbuh), as it helps us to avoid such urges.

Salaam

 

[LeoSalinas22]

hello fellow posters,
i was reading this thead and it is very interesting. i myself am totally against homosexuality because it is an abomination in God's eyes. but i also agree that we should treat homosexuals with compassion. we are no one to judge them for God will do that on the day of Judgment.
but as i was reading this thread, a scripture from the bible came up that reminded me about the public affection between two men, namely David and Jonathan. i won't post the scripture on an Islamic board so i will post it on the Abrahamic board since i want point of views from jewish, christian and muslims alike. the thread is right here .
thanks and God bless you all...

 

[kiwimac]

Irshad Manji is a Kafir.



Lesbianism is a Mental illness.



1.She is Kafir.
2.She can't read Arabic.
3.She has a deep hate for Islam.
4.She is not a Scholar.

Hope this helps

Rot and nonsense.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Rot and nonsense.

Feeling moody?
You must be, to bring up this subject again.

I have just been looking at what's going on in Mali at the moment.
Everybody in the western world always "points the finger" at Muslims. It always has to be their fault,
whatever is going on.

Of course, western colonial Empires have never been responsible for leaving chaos in countries they decide
to withdraw from.

Timbukto in Mali has a very interesting history.

Timbuktu had long been a destination or stop for merchants from the Middle East and North Africa. It wasn't long before ideas as well as merchandise began passing through the fabled city. Since most if not all these traders were Muslim, the mosque would see visitors constantly. The temple accumulated a wealth of books from throughout the Muslim world becoming not only a center of worship but a center of learning. Books became more valuable than any other commodity in the city, and private libraries sprouted up in the homes of local scholars.

By the end of Mansa Musa's reign (early 14th century CE), the Sankoré Masjid had been converted into a fully staffed Madrassa (Islamic school or in this case university) with the largest collections of books in Africa since the Library of Alexandria. The level of learning at Timbuktu's Sankoré University was superior to that of many other Islamic centers in the world. The Sankoré Masjid was capable of housing 25,000 students and had one of the largest libraries in the world with between 400,000 and 700,000 manuscripts
- wiki -

Why did this happen? This is the root of an enlightened civilization, and not ignorant barbarians.
People are being fed propaganda. I'm not surprised there is trouble, when the present leaders of the world
are involved in so much corruption, and often from the wealthy and privileged.

 

[RabbiO]

Rot and nonsense.

Any particular reason you felt the need to respond to a 15 year old post, from a poster who has not been on the board in 13 years, on a thread that’s been dormant for 14 years?

 

[RJM]

I can't live my life on victim consciousness and how I have been badly treated by others. The sand runs through the nexus of the hourglass starts to build up on the horus on the other side, and becomes reversed ...

 

[RJM]

I can't spend my life energy directed at others for what they are not or what they should or could be

 

[Amica2]

In light of the percieved increase in intolerance of Muslims in the Netherlands, the Dutch lesbian periodical Zij aan Zij has dedicated an entire issue to Islam, focussing on its position on lesbianism, with the aim of increasing understanding. The issue contains articles about coming out or hiding one's sexuality within the Muslim community, interviews with Dutch politicians, and many interviews with Muslims, male and female, prominent and not, straight and not, Dutch and foreign, most (but not all) of whom are positive towards or at least tolerant of lesbianism. Granted, the aim of the issue is to increase understanding and tolerance of Muslims among lesbians ("See? Don't automatically assume they all hate us"). But I'm curious how a less biased group of Muslims would respond to some of the points brought up in different articles.

All quotes are my own translations from the articles' original Dutch, and I apologize for any errors.

From an interview with Canadian lesbian activist (and practicing Muslim) Irshad Manji:
Elsewhere in the same interview:

From an article entitled "What does the Koran say about lesbians?"


I'm particularly interested in knowing more about the "rules of the science of Koran interpretation". Also, at various points in the magazine reference is made to the fact that nearly all Koran scholars are male, often because of the idea that it is not the job or even the right of women to study the Koran. To what extent is this accurate? How is the validity of Manji's comments affected by the fact that she is a woman? By the fact that she is a lesbian? Or is what she says accurate (or not) regardless of who would say it? Why? Are there other interpretations for verse 4:15? What other verses apply to lesbians or lesbian behaviour, and are there similar efforts at reinterpreting these verses? How much right does Nahas, or anyone, have to reinterpret verses such as this?

As I said, I recognize that the viewpoints put forth in the magazine are overwhelmingly biased to lesbians' advantage. I want to know what a less weighted group of Muslims has to say about these ideas. I'm not planning to try to change anyone's mind or attack anyone's point of view, I'm not trolling, and I'm not trying to pick a fight. I very much appreciate anything anyone has to say on this.

According to the Islamic Scripture, the Qur'an, homosexuality or any other sexual orientation besides heterosexuality, is considered a choice, and people are commanded not to engage in such as it is considered exceeding the limits (sinning). At the same time, Qur'an never once encourages violence. In fact, in the Qur'an, there is NO mention of any punishment for people who practice homosexuality or other sexual orientations besides heterosexuality.

Having said this, among Muslims there are a lot of conservatives who point at the story of Lot and his people, and say: but see how Allah SWT destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Based on this, hadiths who are taken partially from Old Testament say how homosexuality is to be punished. ANY time Qur'an doesn't mention something that conservatives want to see, you will find hadiths that support their views. And the issue is that many Muslims believe hadiths as unofficial extension of the Qur'an, even when they contradict the Holy Book. So, that's one problem.

Another problem is the interpretation of the story of Lot. Some Muslims reading it understand that the homosexuals mention were sexually harassing and abusing others to the point that Lot was willing to give up his daughters for abuse in order to protect his angelic guests. As you know, in Middle East guests and respect of guests is important. Anyway. One interpretation is that Allah SWT was punishing exceeding of limits that Lot's people engaged in for not only were they doing something sinful, but they crossed the line by sexually harassing and abusing others. Hence the fiery brimstone punishment.

Of course, others see this act of God as a green light to hate and abuse non-heterosexuals, even though God in the Qur'an does not give such permission.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Of course, others see this act of God as a green light to hate and abuse non-heterosexuals, even though God in the Qur'an does not give sich permission..

I think that generally, people should mind their own business..
However, the promotion of sexual deviance in the west has gone too far, imo.
Political correctness is an ass, and satan only seeks to recruit disbelief.

i.e. satan wishes to destroy us all

I have to say, that satan is "winning". However, while satan can cause extreme suffering to any of us, he
cannot take any of us to hell with him without the permission of Allah.

Allah is the greatest of all. There is no might or power EXCEPT with ALLAH !
لا حَوْلَ وَلا قُوَّةَ إِلا بِالله

 

[Ella S.]

I think that generally, people should mind their own business..
However, the promotion of sexual deviance in the west has gone too far, imo.
Political correctness is an ass, and satan only seeks to recruit disbelief.

i.e. satan wishes to destroy us all

I have to say, that satan is "winning". However, while satan can cause extreme suffering to any of us, he
cannot take any of us to hell with him without the permission of Allah.

Allah is the greatest of all. There is no might or power EXCEPT with ALLAH !
لا حَوْلَ وَلا قُوَّةَ إِلا بِالله

I think the sexual deviance is just a product of a growing value-shift towards hedonism. It's merely a symptom of how the West has broken, not its root cause.

I don't think that the root cause is a lack of religion. Actually, I blame WW2 and the Great Depression. It lead to a lot of parents trying to shield their kids from responsibility as well as two-income households where the kids almost never saw their working parents.

That pain has trickled down several generations. People have forgotten how to make peace with themselves, so they turn to hedonism for shallow distractions from their pain. In a healthy society, it wouldn't matter if you made sexual deviance acceptable; nobody would have a need for it.

 

[Thomas]

At the same time, Qur'an never once encourages violence. In fact, in the Qur'an, there is NO mention of any punishment for people who practice homosexuality or other sexual orientations besides heterosexuality.

Well said. There was a time when @bananabrain here argued that the Hebrew Scripture had been misconstrued to argue a certain morality, and Christian Scripture do not condone violence nor condemnation of the other because they are different. Jesus sat with wine-bibber, tax-gatherers and prostitutes, not doubt with those who did not fall into the narrow heterosexual model.

Having said this, among Muslims there are a lot of conservatives who point at the story of Lot and his people ...

Yep. I think we Abrahamics do that.

ANY time Qur'an doesn't mention something that conservatives want to see, you will find hadiths that support their views.

Yes again! Well said.

Of course, others see this act of God as a green light to hate and abuse non-heterosexuals, even though God in the Qur'an does not give such permission.

Amen.

 

[Thomas]

I think the sexual deviance is just a product of a growing value-shift towards hedonism.

Just to qualify my own views on this, not with regard to your comments, @Ella S. but generally, I do not count those who do not define themselves as heterosexual as 'deviant'.

I tend to think much deviance is the misuse of power, not gender orientation.

Bearing in mind the instances of abuse, conflict, tyranny, coercion and murder within the 'desired heterosexual norm', we hetero are not really in a position to pass judgement on anyone.

 

[wil]

I recall reading folks blaming this or.that for the number of trans and homosexual people today....the lessening of morality, the downfall of society...when it is much more like releasing the binds of slavery.

The religious chose to condemn gay folk, and polygamy forcing them into changing behaviour, concealing perceived transgressions by beating and berating.them into submission. As that has.changed more.came out of the closet and young people choose to be comfortable in their own skin, behaviour and fashion style and have broken norms.

The increase in visibility and numbers is not due to lessening of morals, but reduction of oppression and violence against those deemed "different".

This should be no surprise...the same thing happened when we quit forcing people to be right handed.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes again! Well said.

Example?
I've already explained that the authenticity of hadith is identical to that of the Gospels i.e. according to

 

[RJM]

There are just more people, imo

 

[Thomas]

I've already explained that the authenticity of hadith is identical to that of the Gospels i.e. according to

I can understand why you would think so.

 

[wil]

For some no proof is required...

For others no proof is enough...

I think that is handy, because we are talking about beliefs in the unknown, proof is lacking...best we have is conjecture...well that and shouting.

 

[Ella S.]

Just to qualify my own views on this, not with regard to your comments, @Ella S. but generally, I do not count those who do not define themselves as heterosexual as 'deviant'.

I tend to think much deviance is the misuse of power, not gender orientation.

Bearing in mind the instances of abuse, conflict, tyranny, coercion and murder within the 'desired heterosexual norm', we hetero are not really in a position to pass judgement on anyone.

I agree that your sexual orientation isn't the same as sexual deviance. Plenty of straight people are deviants, too. Deviancy in general is on the rise, but I have noticed that it seems particularly common in LGBTQIA+ spaces.

I don't see deviance as about abuse, though. I see it as a product of lust and hedonism. Abuse is a different issue, and I sympathize with its victims.

I'm not heterosexual and I'm not trying to pass judgment, certainly not on anyone specifically, but Western culture has become hyper-sexualized and infatuated with "sexual liberation" and "free love," which are movements that have always historically had close ties to LGBTQIA+ rights activism. It's why people go to Pride in full fetish gear.

 

[Thomas]

I agree that your sexual orientation isn't the same as sexual deviance.

Quite.

Plenty of straight people are deviants, too.

Indeed.

Deviancy in general is on the rise, but I have noticed that it seems particularly common in LGBTQIA+ spaces.

I can't say. I'm not sure we sufficiently kept track? Is domestic violence on the rise, or is it being reported more often now even though we have (nowhere near sufficient) means to assist and care for victims, and agencies (police & judiciary) who are coming round to the fact that they might well be prejudiced ...

The current idea, or standard, if you will, of heterosexuality began to emerge in the early 18th century when the role for men and women became defined, and in some aspects, rewritten. Prior to this, it was commonly understood that a heterosexual male would seek the company of both women and adolescent boys. After 1700, some Europeans began to regard an eye for the same gender as a minority, and deviant.

This new regime first appeared between in England, France, and the Netherlands, and by 1800 it was present in central Europe, but it did not arrive in southern and eastern Europe before 1900.

It is likely that women before 1700 were (like men) attracted both to men and women and that their relations with women were usually structured by differences in age (from what references are available). After 1700 it is likely that the continuing female bi minority had less of an impact on the lives of the female majority than the bi male minority had on the lives of most men – but then this is to do with men in positions of authority and power.

These changes first occurred in a single generation after 1700, although the abruptness in the change is no greater than the changes in politics and economics brought about by the French and Industrial Revolutions. The revolution in sexual and gender relations is no easier to explain than those in politics and the economy.

The trial of Oscar Wilde, for example, (1895) changed the picture in England completely. Prior to the trial, a series of full-page colour illustrations of the Regiments of the British Army portrayed officers in dress uniform often walking arm-in-arm. After the trial, any physical contact between men in public was a social gaffe of monumental proportions, that might destroy careers and reputations.

I see it (deviance) as a product of lust and hedonism.

Well now we have the 'means, motive and opportunity' as detectives might say. Pre-WWII there was no such phenomena as 'teenagers' anywhere near the scale that emerged in the 50s, and certainly no such phenomena as teenagers with disposable monies. In England, working class children were working at 14.

... but Western culture has become hyper-sexualized and infatuated with "sexual liberation" and "free love," which are movements that have always historically had close ties to LGBTQIA+ rights activism. It's why people go to Pride in full fetish gear.

Generally agree with all of that, (I certainly have a quite poor opinion of the hippy movement and a squandered opportunity on a massive scale), but then that's to be expected when the lid comes off, as it were.

That said, the consumerist/commercial incentives behind and promoting these movements are far more toxic and corrosive.

 

[Ella S.]

I can't say. I'm not sure we sufficiently kept track? Is domestic violence on the rise, or is it being reported more often now even though we have (nowhere near sufficient) means to assist and care for victims, and agencies (police & judiciary) who are coming round to the fact that they might well be prejudiced ...

The current idea, or standard, if you will, of heterosexuality began to emerge in the early 18th century when the role for men and women became defined, and in some aspects, rewritten. Prior to this, it was commonly understood that a heterosexual male would seek the company of both women and adolescent boys. After 1700, some Europeans began to regard an eye for the same gender as a minority, and deviant.

This new regime first appeared between in England, France, and the Netherlands, and by 1800 it was present in central Europe, but it did not arrive in southern and eastern Europe before 1900.

It is likely that women before 1700 were (like men) attracted both to men and women and that their relations with women were usually structured by differences in age (from what references are available). After 1700 it is likely that the continuing female bi minority had less of an impact on the lives of the female majority than the bi male minority had on the lives of most men – but then this is to do with men in positions of authority and power.

These changes first occurred in a single generation after 1700, although the abruptness in the change is no greater than the changes in politics and economics brought about by the French and Industrial Revolutions. The revolution in sexual and gender relations is no easier to explain than those in politics and the economy.

The trial of Oscar Wilde, for example, (1895) changed the picture in England completely. Prior to the trial, a series of full-page colour illustrations of the Regiments of the British Army portrayed officers in dress uniform often walking arm-in-arm. After the trial, any physical contact between men in public was a social gaffe of monumental proportions, that might destroy careers and reputations.

I'm not sure what the relevance of this is? Especially to the part of my post that you're quoting.

ETA: Oh, I see, you're responding using your view of degeneracy as abuse. Alright.