My Christianity questions.
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China Cat Sunflower
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Quahom1 said:
I view everything prior to the "discovery" of the Book of the Law as foundational mythology. IOW, real, historically verifiable Judaism begins at this point. It is the genesis of the state of Judah and it's efforts at creating a homogenized cultural identity, under a monotheistic theology, administered by a priestly elite. This is the BIG IDEA.
Chris
China Cat Sunflower
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Quahom1 said:
Which hat are you wearing when you say that?
Chris
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It was an honest question Q.
Look, anything I ever write is arguable. I don't waste time asking rhetorical questions, but anything I write is just meant to be an accurate representation of what I'm thinking...at that moment. I honestly don't have an axe to grind one way or another vis a vis Christianity, so what you're reading from me is just a momentary statement of opinion based on fascinations and questions I'm persuing. In my experience, there's a really thin space between mostly unquestioning belief and outright detraction in Christian theology. I'm trying to thread that needle.
Chris
Look, anything I ever write is arguable. I don't waste time asking rhetorical questions, but anything I write is just meant to be an accurate representation of what I'm thinking...at that moment. I honestly don't have an axe to grind one way or another vis a vis Christianity, so what you're reading from me is just a momentary statement of opinion based on fascinations and questions I'm persuing. In my experience, there's a really thin space between mostly unquestioning belief and outright detraction in Christian theology. I'm trying to thread that needle.
Chris
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Penguin!
Do you see all of history as it happens? Can you tell today what will be important in your life to your grandkids 40 years from now? I can't. All I have is my stories and my understanding. When the time comes and my grandkids express interest, I will share my stories with them. I'll remember some, I'll forget some, I'll embellish some. But if someone like Jesus had crossed the path of my life, I think I would remember pretty vividly.
I suppose if you view nature as evil, then I can see where you are coming from. A lot of what we see as evil is simply the cycle of life playing along as it should. Humans have managed to carve a niche in that, in nature, and by now we try to circumvent natural process (have been trying for a very long time, but we're getting better at it all the time). We think death is a horrible thing, but death is a part of life. It is through death that we are able to go on to the next level. If you believe reincarnation or rebirth, or if you believe to heaven. What we see as death feeds new life in creation, in nature. There is a time to be born and a time to die. We either accept this reality for what it is, with due reverence for our loved ones who have gone on, or we deny the natural cycle of reality, and see all as evil.
The Jewish testament is in a different order than the Christian OT, but the books are the same. Law, history, poetry and prophecy.
Scribes merely copy texts. That was the job of an entire class of people. They didn't have copy machines back then, they didn't have printing presses. Everything was copied by hand or not at all.
Do you see all of history as it happens? Can you tell today what will be important in your life to your grandkids 40 years from now? I can't. All I have is my stories and my understanding. When the time comes and my grandkids express interest, I will share my stories with them. I'll remember some, I'll forget some, I'll embellish some. But if someone like Jesus had crossed the path of my life, I think I would remember pretty vividly.
I believe it is Rastafari that promotes this view.
The others answered well. Each culture wants to make the story theirs, to identify with it. So they paint him in their own image.
I have heard unsubstantiated rumors that there is an extensive underground library of things like proceedings from the Inquisition, but nothing like you suggest.
I wish you peace wherever you may find it. Good Luck.
China Cat Sunflower said:
Very well. I will tell you what I think. I think there is a core truth to the Bible that cannot be extinguished by time. Two thousand years later and it is still the number one seller. Despite naysayers and sceptics the Bible just keeps getting more popular. No other book has been translated into almost every language known to man. We must ask ourselves why?
Is it because it is a "pipe dream" that people desperately want to believe? Or is there something greater at work?
my thoughts,
v/r
Q
Many thanks again for your contributions in answer to my questions, much appreciated indeed. The last few posts (that have gone off on a tangient) have confused me a bit and I don't understand them to be honest. But I agree it is difficult to explain why the bible is still the best seller and is always increasing in popularity, a very good point indeed that one.
Penguin, often thought in responses to to a thread spawn new thought, which spawns new responses...completely off topic of the original thread...it happens, and often creates an awesome discussion and occasionally derails the the thread...nature of the beast I think.
I think Paul was an amazing marketer...if he were around today he'd give Bill Gates a run for his money... But today we have missionairies following in his footsteps giving away bibles everywhere...and the Gideons insuring there is a bible in every hotel room drawer...Most Christians I know have multiple bibles, gifts from childhood graduations, various interpretations picked up for study, family bibles handed down.. Hard for me to imagine having 5-10 copies of any other book. I don't think it is hard to understand how it became the largest selling book of all time. With the growing number of Muslims in the world and general interest in Islam I think the Koran will be coming on strong...
wil said:
I doubt it. For one thing, in order to truly understand the Qu'ran one must be able to read Arabic (that comes right from the Muslims that have posted here at CR). In any other language, the Qu'ran does not carry the significance of the true meaning as it allegedly does in the original Arabic. I happen to have one (surprised?), and the reading of is...challenging, especially if one does not well know the History of Islam, or the characters involved.
The Bible, in comparrison is relatively simple to read, in any language. Though the composed bibliography is not exactly chronologically ordered, each "book" holds its own logical sequence of causes, effects and lessons learned.
Unlike the Qu'ran (and many other religious scriptures), a new Christian or one who is curious are encouraged to start reading it by reading...
The Gospel of John. Why? John's message is plain, clear and concise within the first few paragraphs. What is the Bible about...it is about Jesus the Savior, the Messiah of Mankind. From there people's curiosity gets them to continue "exploring" what else the Bible has to say.
Ironic that most people here at CR have a better understanding of the Bible, than other have of the Qu'ran.
The Christian story is simple. Jesus is a personal God. He is your God and my God, the God of ages. Trust in Jesus, and all will work out for the best. That is it!
That is why the Bible is a best seller. People want to know that God cares for each and every individual personally.
now back to our regular scheduled program...
v/r
Q
An aside for the Christian esotericists:
Each Revelation is carried by a sacred language, but as a mode of revelation Christianity is 'the word made flesh' - with everything such a statement implies - and as such comprises 'an esoterism in plain sight' and so transcends language which is itself exoteric. Thus the Sacramental efficacy of the reading of Scripture is not dependent upon in which language it is read.
To the Fathers the Sacred Scriptures were a form of the Body of Christ, and reading them is a Dialogue with the Saviour.
Those traditions which are tied to a sacred language produce certain psychodynamic effects when read or chanted in that language, but these effects are not effected in other languages (the sonorous structure differs). Hence the Islamic belief that the Qran is only 'effective' in Arabic, or the Vedas in Sanskrit.
Thomas
Each Revelation is carried by a sacred language, but as a mode of revelation Christianity is 'the word made flesh' - with everything such a statement implies - and as such comprises 'an esoterism in plain sight' and so transcends language which is itself exoteric. Thus the Sacramental efficacy of the reading of Scripture is not dependent upon in which language it is read.
To the Fathers the Sacred Scriptures were a form of the Body of Christ, and reading them is a Dialogue with the Saviour.
Those traditions which are tied to a sacred language produce certain psychodynamic effects when read or chanted in that language, but these effects are not effected in other languages (the sonorous structure differs). Hence the Islamic belief that the Qran is only 'effective' in Arabic, or the Vedas in Sanskrit.
Thomas
When I hear the Lord's Prayer in Aramaic, or a Cantar sing the Psalms..I don't understand the words...but do experience them in a wonderful way...great for going into meditation...As with the Koran and Arabic...there would be great value in knowing the language that the books were written in and reading them from that space...Thomas said:
Hi Wil -
Agreed - I prefer the Latin Mass over the vernacular, but I also acknowledge that part of its magic is precisely that I didn't understand it, therefore don't engage in mental dialogue - its the discursive function of the brain that we bypass in meditation - at that level the sung Latin mass functions in the same way as rites in any other tradition.
Having said that, whilst I do argue among Catholics that the English vernacular language of the Liturgy is dreadful - its English by committee and compared to the language of the great poets or prose writers it is drab and dreary - a crafted liturgy in English can elevate the soul.
For me the most moving moment of any mass (and God forbid I should be comparing miracle to miracle) is the Good Friday reading of the Crucifixion - something I know well, but something that transmits differently in the context of the Church and a Christian collectivity - but something I would lose if I did not know what the words meant.
As a meditative/prayer device, I use the simple phrase 'Kyrie eleison' - it's one of the oldest parts of the liturgy, so my prayer is echoed by the generations that have gone before; it reverberates through time and the history of my tradition; it is the only Greek in the Latin Mass, and a simplification of the 'Jesus Prayer' so it unites East and West in a time before schism, which is where I place myself; it's short and therefore easy to utilise the rhythm of the breath.
Best of all I can sign a multitude of variations whilst riding my bike, safe in the knowledge that my 'voice' cannot be heard beyond a full-face helmet and a 600cc engine...
Thomas
Agreed - I prefer the Latin Mass over the vernacular, but I also acknowledge that part of its magic is precisely that I didn't understand it, therefore don't engage in mental dialogue - its the discursive function of the brain that we bypass in meditation - at that level the sung Latin mass functions in the same way as rites in any other tradition.
Having said that, whilst I do argue among Catholics that the English vernacular language of the Liturgy is dreadful - its English by committee and compared to the language of the great poets or prose writers it is drab and dreary - a crafted liturgy in English can elevate the soul.
For me the most moving moment of any mass (and God forbid I should be comparing miracle to miracle) is the Good Friday reading of the Crucifixion - something I know well, but something that transmits differently in the context of the Church and a Christian collectivity - but something I would lose if I did not know what the words meant.
As a meditative/prayer device, I use the simple phrase 'Kyrie eleison' - it's one of the oldest parts of the liturgy, so my prayer is echoed by the generations that have gone before; it reverberates through time and the history of my tradition; it is the only Greek in the Latin Mass, and a simplification of the 'Jesus Prayer' so it unites East and West in a time before schism, which is where I place myself; it's short and therefore easy to utilise the rhythm of the breath.
Best of all I can sign a multitude of variations whilst riding my bike, safe in the knowledge that my 'voice' cannot be heard beyond a full-face helmet and a 600cc engine...
Thomas
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Thomas!
Thank you for that!
The message supercedes the messenger!
Thank you for that!
Yes, of course!
The message supercedes the messenger!