Allowing child molesters in church?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Muslimwoman said:
As I posted before, child molesters here tend to just disappear - body and all, often happens to rapists too. Personally they get my vote - I'll hold the flashlight for them.
Click to expand...

geez, muslimwoman, i don't know wether to laugh my ass off because of disbelief or crap my pants! women are insane, man!
Click to expand...
 
LeoSalinas22 said:
geez, muslimwoman, i don't know wether to laugh my ass off because of disbelief or crap my pants! women are insane, man!
Click to expand...

Hey I think it is men that are insane, they tend to be the rapists and child molesters (although not exclusively).

Now tell me, if you were one of these wierdos and lived in Egypt would you do it there? Bet you say no. The same as you wouldn't steal in Saudi and wouldn't smuggle drugs in Thailand - am I right? :D
 
MW

Everything you say makes so much sense to me! If the consequences are bad enough then people won't do the horrible things. Makes a lot of sense to me. Here it seems a child is molested and the person who did it serves no time at all in a cushy little country club jail cell.
 
Miss Amy said:
MW

Everything you say makes so much sense to me! If the consequences are bad enough then people won't do the horrible things. Makes a lot of sense to me. Here it seems a child is molested and the person who did it serves no time at all in a cushy little country club jail cell.
Click to expand...

Hi Amy

Islam does have some horrific punishments for crimes but just look at the statistics. The scholars insist the punishment for adultery is stoning to death, guess how many people I have met over here that would have an affair. Yes men here can have 4 wives but I have only met a couple that have even 2 out of thousands I have met and I have certainly not even heard of anyone having an affair. Women ensure they are not in a position to be accused of anything untoward. Yes in some places it does go too far, just look at Saudi.

It does beg the question as to whether morals should be governed by law but quite frankly if it keeps my husband and I in the same bed and stops our children from being hurt then I am all for it. It does however, worry me that this system can and is in some places abused and if the law is your moral judge then where does it end? So perhaps if I lived in Saudi I would not be such a supporter?

However I do believe the west has gone way too far. Send criminals on holiday, give them playstations in their cells and of course these child molesters are 'in need of help'. Sorry but when I watched the UK news over the last week (about the little British girl that was snatched from her room) and the UK police said they were looking at ALL the child molesters that travelled to Portugal in the month before the incident, I had to do a double take. What on earth do they mean ALL of them and why are these people allowed to travel freely, what right do they have to a passport and why should other countries have to put up with these monsters?
 
MW said:
It does beg the question as to whether morals should be governed by law but quite frankly if it keeps my husband and I in the same bed and stops our children from being hurt then I am all for it. It does however, worry me that this system can and is in some places abused and if the law is your moral judge then where does it end? So perhaps if I lived in Saudi I would not be such a supporter?
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying, but I want to ask you what activities, in your opinion, merit capital punishment? Adultery? Child molestation? Treason? Manslaughter? Theft? Gross negligence that leads to death? Blasphemy?

The first, adultery, begs the question of whether a person actually owns his or her own body. What's your point of view on that?
 
Sunny C. said:
I understand what you're saying, but I want to ask you what activities, in your opinion, merit capital punishment? Adultery? Child molestation? Treason? Manslaughter? Theft? Gross negligence that leads to death? Blasphemy?

The first, adultery, begs the question of whether a person actually owns his or her own body. What's your point of view on that?
Click to expand...

Hi Sunny

Just my personal ramblings, of course but here goes.

Yes I believe I own my own body and my mind is there to make moral judgements. Quite honestly I don't believe in capital punishment for adultery (I think some fellow Muslims on this site are going to try to stone me to death for saying that :D ). In Islam adultery is the second biggest sin and it must therefore hold a severe punishment as a deterant but I am a supporter of following the Quran, not man made laws, so the punishment would be 100 lashes for both man and woman if the crime is adultery and 100 lashes and 1 years exile for unmarried people who fornicate.

Where would I draw the line? Murder, rape and child molestation should merit capital punishment where the case is proven beyond any reasonable doubt.

I am in between on treason, it would depend wether the persons actions were intended to kill.

Manslaughter? No, it is possible to commit manslaughter with no aggresive intention. Theft? No, to me that does not warrant capital punishment. Gross negligence that leads to death? Again No, you would have to show that the intention was there to kill or that the person was aware that their negligence would kill. Blasphemy? NO, there must be no compulsion in religion.
 
Yes I believe I own my own body and my mind is there to make moral judgements. Quite honestly I don't believe in capital punishment for adultery (I think some fellow Muslims on this site are going to try to stone me to death for saying that :D ). In Islam adultery is the second biggest sin and it must therefore hold a severe punishment as a deterant but I am a supporter of following the Quran, not man made laws, so the punishment would be 100 lashes for both man and woman if the crime is adultery and 100 lashes and 1 years exile for unmarried people who fornicate.
Click to expand...

Really? Really, really? You think that people who have sex outside of the confines of marriage deserved to be lashed? That seems pretty barbaric to me. How does one have ownership of their body in that case? It would seem that the group. or the state, or the religion owns one's body and what one may do with it with other consenting adults. This is a good thing?

Chris
 
I'll tell you, I deserve a lot of lashes! And if I had done at eighteen what I did at sixteen and seventeen I'd be considered a child molester. All those underage girls in the backseat of my old man's Buick. Whooo! I wouldn't have anything left flay.

My wife of twenty years is a home town girl. I've stood around and drank a beer at family functions with guys who I know did my wife when she was younger. BFD. We're all friends and it doesn't bother any of us a whit. And it hasn't hurt us or society a bit. So, we should all be whipped and or killed for that?
 
Miss Amy said:
Since you were quoting me... I feel like I should at least address your comment, however in further readings I figure that I wouldn't say anything better than Muslimwoman so why beat a dead horse, eh?

However... I am not a "god lover" however I respect that many here, are in his many forms, and I think that you were right to question whether or not anyone would see the light side of that comment...
Click to expand...

Get a freaking sense of humour.......
 
...certain crimes should be punishable by death... I suggest that any repeat offender of "crimes against the person" without a class A drug addiction or a serious long term mental illness should be humanely euthanized... so, sex attackers, child killers, multiple murderers, successful terrorists, ppl who mug old ladies for fun, none of them would be sitting pretty in jail, we would give them the lethal injections and end their life... we wouldn't then have to feed them or provide them with therapy we know does not work, nor would we spend hundreds of thousands of pounds allowing them to argue their case again and again in court... the prison service would have more money to deal with inmate's problems, and it would hopefully act as a deterrent for some...

obviously, capital punishment is a contentious issue- determining guilt is not as hard as determining innocence, and we would have to be careful that we did not kill innocent ppl, but lie detector tests are 96% accurate, couple this with exemplary evidence gathering and ensuring a person gets a fair trial and u are not likely to then kill innocent ppl...

obviously, we would have to reserve this punishment for the most serious offenders, u can't kill someone because they are an adulterer, or because they have plotted to overthrow the head of state, or have committed a large scale fraud which financially cripples thousands of ppl, or for blasphemy, or for any of the other small time reasons, but I think if u deliberately physically hurt other ppl repeatedly then there should not be a place in society for u at all...

currently in the UK there is more than 80,000 ppl in jail... about 6,000 of these are in jail for sex offences, and the biggest group, those who commit violence against the person number some 17,000... of these two groups, there are approcximately 7600 "lifers", )(those with a mandatory life sentence) (source: bbc news)... but thats just the ones in jail...

...channel four news tells us that there are 30,000 sex offenders on the sex offender register, and the number rises each year... thats a lot of sick wackos...
 
Muslimwoman said:
Hi TE

You think talking about gang rape and rape victims being forced to marry their rapists is me defending anyone? If I wanted to defend against reality I would not mention these things, in fact I would deny them.
Click to expand...

That is all you have said?

I make no bones about it, I am looking for the ideal Islam and if everyone followed the Quran and not man made misinterpretations then Islam would indeed be ideal and peaceful. I am not an apologist, men do the most hideous things in the name of Islam but to blame the Quran is simply wrong. All I try to do is put the blame on those at fault and show how what they are doing in the name of Islam is in fact not at all included in Islam but is these awful men following their desires.
Click to expand...

Pie in the sky.



Sorry was I off sick that day? Do you really think you know more about being a Muslim woman than I do?
Click to expand...
Do you think I think I do? I did not take that quote from some anti-Islamic publication but from a sociologists paper on sexuality in Egypt. The purpose of the paper is neither to defend or attack the cultural norms there and the quote is given in the context that it is often used.

Hee-hee myself, my mother and sister in law just fell off our chairs laughing when I translated your comments. My father in law asked me to ask you a question - "Can I quote that next time my wife throws a shoe at me?" :D He then shook his head at the wests view of Islam in action.

Sorry we shouldn't laugh, yes it does happen in some places but you seem to think this is the norm. We can assure you it is not, you have never seen an angry woman or a brow beaten man until you see an Arabic couple have a domestic argument.
Click to expand...

I am glad I afforded you and you family a giggle :)
My veiw is that people are people are people. Cultural and religious variation is a veneer of varying thickness. This tendency of women to rule the roost and brow beat husbands and fuss over children is humanity wide and not especially marked in arabic culture. It seems to me for whatever reasons you have found some comfort and acceptance within your new family fold, and from your posts I get the feeling this is something that was lacking in your life before. But you get close families here too. Ones that look out for and care about each other just the same as you find the world over.
The time I spent working in Denmark my two closest freinds there were Egyptian. They were very very nice guys. Not because they were Egyptian but because they were very nice guys.[/quote]

I have said it before and I shall say it again, my husband was told by his sheikh, when we first married, that he was to employ someone to clean and cook for me and if he couldn't afford to do that then he should cook and clean for me himself. I will happily put my hand on the Quran and swear to Allah that is true. Women have a great deal more respect in Islam than in the west (I know from both sides).

Here is the whole verse by a different translator, Yusufali, which I feel demonstrates it's meaning better:

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Being obedient is somehow seen by non Muslims as grovelling, this is not correct. I was really concerned about this verse before I converted so I went to a scholar for an interpretation. As most non Muslims do, I read it and immediately thought 'downtrodden'. He was rather long winded so I'll give you the abridged version. Look at the bit I have put in bold. What is it talking about? Our modesty, our faith. Yes traditionally our husbands work and we stay home and verbally gang up on our husbands, until of course our hubbys come home and then we are sweetness and light (as all women do everywhere). So men are the providers and protectors of women, so why shouldn't we look after them? Have their dinner ready when they come home, have the house clean, stop the kids from kicking the football round the living room while our husbands watch the news? It takes an hour of the day to cook and another to clean, so then I have all day to watch tv and chat online, while my husband works from 10am until 1-2am. My in laws eat here all the time and poor old Dad comes in from work knackered and I have to tell mother in law to shut up and leave the poor man to eat because she is there nagging the moment he walks in - ooooo sounds so obedient doesn't she?! It is talking about respect, if someone is going to do all that to provide my beautiful home, my food, my huge collection of shoes, etc, etc, etc then yes I should be grateful and respectful. That doesn't stop me from telling him which bike to get on when he annoys me.

We see everything in Islam from wives lounging on sofa's while hubby, who was at work all day, comes home and makes the dinner to men standing, arms out, while their wives dress them. That is life everywhere not just in Islam.
Click to expand...
I wonder if you would have the same veiws if you lived in a slum area of Cairo?



and you are damned right she would be a virgin when she got married.
Click to expand...
So your daughter would have no free will or choice over her own body?





I can't comment on Iran they are Shi'a and have a different set of laws. We are Sunni and don't listen to a word Iran says (uhm you may not know but Shi'a is by far the smaller sect, so this was a very bad example).
Click to expand...
I am aware of the differences otherwise I would have cited Mut'a marraiges. As for it being a bad example I disagree. You may destinguish between Sunni and Shi'a but most of the world does not. Generalisations may be innacurate when discussing specifics but my point was to illustrate the perception in the west of the spread of Islamic law and its injustice.



The purpose of my last post to you was to illustrate that it is naive to think child abuse and rape is absent in Islamic nations. And that the very institution of Islam by its nature seeks to ignore the issue. Now you can go ahead a quote any number of lines from the Q'uran that says this is not so, you can point to the cultural differences that prevent it, but you will still miss my point. Which is not drivel. Human nature being what it is makes it an absolute certainty that a significant proportion of Islamic raised children will suffer sexual abuse. Because people are people. Amongst all men of all races there are bad apples and their compulsion is always going to find a way. Islam ignores it. States that there is no problem. This is the problem!!
We had the same situation in the west until fairly recently when there was this culture of denyal and looking the other way. Now that the lid has been lifted we have some idea of just how widespread the problem is. Islam, collectively, still has its head in the sand on this issue. That there are no statistics available whatsoever in Egypt gives testament to a scale of denial you may feel safe with. My heart tho bleeds for the children.

TE
 
Muslimwoman said:
100 lashes and 1 years exile for unmarried people who fornicate.
Click to expand...

Is this as in: 1 year for each, you know, fornication? I ask, because if it is, frankly, I don't think I have enough years left for the punishment to be served.

s.
 
I don't go to church. I had a lifetime's worth of church when I was a kid. But if I did I would let child molesters in so long as they were trussed up like Hannibal Lechter. The Deacons could wheel them in and out on appliance dollies.The recidivisim rate for child predators is way up there. We're not a barbaric culture, though, and sexual abuse isn't the same as taking a life, so it doesn't merit capital punishment. I'm sympathetic with a degree of vigilante justice, however. It's not that I think it's just, just that I'm a father and I know what I would do.
 
Tao_Equus said:
Pie in the sky.
Click to expand...

So what is your answer TE, we just let the world go to hell in a handbasket? Or we try to work for a better one?

Tao_Equus said:
I did not take that quote from some anti-Islamic publication but from a sociologists paper on sexuality in Egypt.
Click to expand...

I can only tell you what I see here. Can you tell me who wrote the paper, I would like to read it and see what their background is?

Tao_Equus said:
My veiw is that people are people are people.
Click to expand...

This was my point TE, yes some Muslim women are oppressed and yes some live a great life but the same can be said for any cultural or religious group in the world. But to read one verse of the Quran and say "see men are your masters and you must be subservient and this is the norm" is just too simplistic and quite frankly not true.

Tao_Equus said:
I wonder if you would have the same veiws if you lived in a slum area of Cairo?
Click to expand...

TE, my town has far worse slums than Cairo. Not that it is anyones business but my parents in law are from bedouin families and they live in a flat which in the west you would be prosecuted for keeping animals in. I am currently saving money to buy them somewhere habitable but have so far managed to provide them with running water, gas and electricity. This is why my husbands younger brother lives with us, I would not allow a child to stay there. You have absolutely no idea what life is really like in a 3rd world country have you? Perhaps you had a vision of me living in a villa with a swimming pool? Yes my western money bought us a nice flat in a half decent area and started a business for us but if you think I live a luxurious life then think again. So the people I tell you about are very typical and ordinary people, they are poor but I have never met more friendly, open hearted people.

Tao_Equus said:
So your daughter would have no free will or choice over her own body?
Click to expand...

If I had a daughter she would be brought up as a Muslim, her body would belong to her but she would be taught that it is a major sin to hand it around. Are you thinking from the point of view of taking a western girl and oppressing her? Girls here are brought up with modesty and they respect their bodies, they have no desire to commit a major sin.

Tao_Equus said:
I am aware of the differences otherwise I would have cited Mut'a marraiges. As for it being a bad example I disagree. You may destinguish between Sunni and Shi'a but most of the world does not.
Click to expand...

And had you cited Mut'a marriages I would have again stated that this is a Shi'a practice and not permitted for Sunni Muslims. Shi'a Muslims number about 1.2 million of the 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide. and some of their practices are very different from Sunni Muslims. Have a look at this, it will give you some of the similarities and differences:

Comparison Chart of Sunni and Shia Islam - ReligionFacts

Hee hee, so if I refer to Japanese people as Chinese that's okay because they all look similar and come from the far east? You think they would not object? Shi'a distinguish themselves from Sunni and Sunni distinguish themselves from Shi'a. So if the west decides to be ignorant and not learn the huge differences between us then that is our problem and we should learn to answer for each other so that the west doesn't have to bother learning to distinguish between us?

Tao_Equus said:
The purpose of my last post to you was to illustrate that it is naive to think child abuse and rape is absent in Islamic nations.
Click to expand...

:confused: I have never suggested that the Islamic world is without such crimes, I actually posted some of these crimes myself. What I was trying to demonstrate is that there is a difference between Islam the religion and the actions of the religions followers. This is something I have found with Islam, people always associate every crime with Islam. Why? I don't say every crime committed by a Christian or Jew is a demonstration of their religion in action.

Tao_Equus said:
Islam ignores it.
Click to expand...

Here you go again. Do you mean Islam ignores it or people that follow the religion ignore it? There is a sizeable difference.

Do you think never being able to find the bodies is ignoring it?

Tao_Equus said:
Islam, collectively, still has its head in the sand on this issue. That there are no statistics available whatsoever in Egypt gives testament to a scale of denial you may feel safe with. My heart tho bleeds for the children.
Click to expand...

Last time, ISLAM is a religion, the people that follow that religion are called Muslims. Some Muslims commit crimes. Islam does not allow these crimes and puts into place very severe punishments for the people that commit these crimes. Get it yet?

I never try to defend any of these crimes by Muslims and I do not try to defend the state terrorism in Egypt, all I try to do is show people that it is wrong to blame Islam (the religion).

:eek: What now Muslims don't care about children? You think our hearts don't bleed for these children?

We live in a police state so there are no official figures for any crimes, for a start it is the police that commit a majority of them. Welcome to life in a police state, there are no statistics. Look up death penalty for Egypt. We still have it, murderers rapists etc are hanged but the statistics are 'a state secret'.

This quote is from an Amnisty International paper, so I think we can safely say it is not ignored:

The Government prosecuted rapists, and punishment for rape ranges from 3 years to life imprisonment with hard labor. If a rapist is convicted of abducting his victim, he is subject to execution.

Salaam
 
Sunny C. said:
Really? Really, really? You think that people who have sex outside of the confines of marriage deserved to be lashed? That seems pretty barbaric to me. How does one have ownership of their body in that case? It would seem that the group. or the state, or the religion owns one's body and what one may do with it with other consenting adults. This is a good thing?
Click to expand...
I would expect it for myself so why not for other Muslims? It is a terrible sin and horrific punishments are put into place as deterrants. I am not saying everyone should receive this punishment, just Muslims. Others can do as they like and take their chances on Judgement Day.

Sunny C. said:
My wife of twenty years is a home town girl. I've stood around and drank a beer at family functions with guys who I know did my wife when she was younger. BFD. We're all friends and it doesn't bother any of us a whit. And it hasn't hurt us or society a bit. So, we should all be whipped and or killed for that?
Click to expand...
If you and your wife are happy then fine and I wish you all the best for your life together. I simply do not accept the same life for myself or my family.

Sunny C. said:
We're not a barbaric culture, though, and sexual abuse isn't the same as taking a life, so it doesn't merit capital punishment. I'm sympathetic with a degree of vigilante justice, however. It's not that I think it's just, just that I'm a father and I know what I would do.
Click to expand...
I disagree. If you are murdered then you go to G-d. A woman who is raped is scarred for life, mentally, emotionally and sometimes physically. I have met rape victims that wish their rapists had killed them. I have seen marriages fall apart because the husband cannot accept what has happened or the wife can no longer let her husband touch her. This affects children for their entire life, never quite feeling safe, never sure of themselves. Some rape victims end up in mental institutions. You don’t think causing this pain and anguish merits capital punishment? Your last comment is spot on, would you want the death penalty by the state if someone raped (G-d forbid) one of your children?

Francis king said:
currently in the UK there is more than 80,000 ppl in jail... about 6,000 of these are in jail for sex offences, and the biggest group, those who commit violence against the person number some 17,000... of these two groups, there are approcximately 7600 "lifers", )(those with a mandatory life sentence) (source: bbc news)... but thats just the ones in jail...
Click to expand...


Hi Francis

What passes for life in the UK now? Is it still 15 or 20 years? I always found that so comical, you have life in prison – well 20 years anyway, unless you are good in which case you could be out in 7.

Snoopy said:
Is this as in: 1 year for each, you know, fornication? I ask, because if it is, frankly, I don't think I have enough years left for the punishment to be served.
Click to expand...
Hee hee, wait until you see your punishment in the next life.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top