Should faith and patriotism be mixed?

[Dondi]

It was a question on another forum whether faith should be red, white, and blue (in re to 4th of July celebration). Should faith be a part of patriotic celebration? Why or why not?

 

[17th Angel]

(strange, something going wrong there.)

Are you a man of god? Or a man of men?

What do we see in the scriputres?

Jeremiah?
14:23

"I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps." (What of Kings, Queens, Presidents, Prime Minsters, Emperors and so on....?)


Daniel?
2:44

"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever." (Woohoo, *gets out his flag* God save the queen/God bless America..... *insert roll of eyes here.*)

Psalm tells us;
37:29 [Warning: if you believe you go to heaven, look away now.]

"the righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever." (So there is a nation still to come, that nation is where your loyalty should lie.)

Revelation
21:3 [Warning: if you believe you go to heaven, look away now.]

"And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God." (soooooo, again just cross referencing that another nation is yet to come... *nods*)

Daniel
7:13,14

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed." (Another cross reference for yah.)

I leave you with this......

Matthew
6:33

"But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." (Oh yea, that's right.... Go with christ brah!)

 

[wil]

Should they be mixed...sure...during the parade you got your Baptist contingent, your Shriners, your Knights of Columbus....

Should only one run a community event....if the community is all one religion...

if not the community should run it and if any religion gets a booth none should be denied.

Dr. Hagelin (from the Natural Law Party) and Neale Walsch (from Conversations w/G-d) made a great video years back titled Spirituality and Politics...hopefully it'll end up on youtube someplace someday...

 

[Dondi]

(strange, something going wrong there.)

Are you a man of god? Or a man of men?

What do we see in the scriputres?

Jeremiah
10:23

"I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps." (What of Kings, Queens, Presidents, Prime Minsters, Emperors and so on....?)

I think the Lord directs his steps:

"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps." - Provebs 16:9

Daniel?
2:44

"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever." (Woohoo, *gets out his flag* God save the queen/God bless America..... *insert roll of eyes here.*)

I don't know what you are talking about. Jesus said that His Kingdom is not of this world (see John 18:36), though I don't beleive he was talking about E.T's world either.

Psalm tells us;
37:29 [Warning: if you believe you go to heaven, look away now.]

"the righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever." (So there is a nation still to come, that nation is where your loyalty should lie.)

I believe this is a reference to the land of Israel, where He will set up His Kingdom.

Revelation
21:3 [Warning: if you believe you go to heaven, look away now.]

"And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God." (soooooo, again just cross referencing that another nation is yet to come... *nods*)[/quoyte]

See above

Daniel
7:13,14

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed." (Another cross reference for yah.)

Yep, same Kingdom, not of this world.

I leave you with this......

Matthew
6:33

"But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." (Oh yea, that's right.... Go with christ brah!)

"Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven." - Lord's prayer

"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." - Colossians 3:1-3

 

[17th Angel]

lol yeah.... ok.

 

[Impqueen]

It's pretty much the same question as 'should church and state be divided?' and I think my answer to that will always be 'hell, yeah'.

I suppose faith could be part of patriotic celebration in the sense that faith affects the way you live your life and presumably each will tend to thank their own god for the good things they see in their country. Faith shouldn't be tied up in it in a exclusionary way though.... as in 'If you're not Christian you're not really American' or whatever. It's strange because alot of the 'patriotic events' that happen in this country are tied to the CoE - coronations etc. But nowadays the CoE is so unassuming that it doesn't really feel like an overpowering presence in those events.

 

[dauer]

I don't think we should leave G!d out of anything but I also don't think we should treat national holidays as some type of binding religious obligation. I like what the Tent of Abraham is doing with Columbus Day:

"...Even when on the official holiday of Columbus Day we lift up what we call the "discovery" of America, the deeds we are actually remembering were infused with conquest and violence. So we intend to transform that day (this year October 8) to become a day when we Americans can 'discover' our own true selves, our own best selves.

So we call for millions to fast from food from sunrise to sunset on October 8, and to connect that physical fast with sharing our food with the hungry and with a cultural, emotional, and political fast from acts and spectacles of violence..."

Tent of Abraham - Home

For the past few years they've been taking advantage of the current overlap of ramadan with "the High Holy Days and Sukkot; Mahatma Gandhi's birthday, October 2; the Feast Day of Francis of Assisi, October 4; Worldwide Communion Sunday and Pavarana / Sangha Day, October 7" to bring people together. Each year they do something a bit different. I'm actually a little disappointed they're using Columbus Day this year because it's not so relevant in a lot of the world. But I do like the way they're trying to transform it.

Dauer

 

[Dondi]

It's pretty much the same question as 'should church and state be divided?' and I think my answer to that will always be 'hell, yeah'.

I suppose faith could be part of patriotic celebration in the sense that faith affects the way you live your life and presumably each will tend to thank their own god for the good things they see in their country. Faith shouldn't be tied up in it in a exclusionary way though.... as in 'If you're not Christian you're not really American' or whatever. It's strange because alot of the 'patriotic events' that happen in this country are tied to the CoE - coronations etc. But nowadays the CoE is so unassuming that it doesn't really feel like an overpowering presence in those events.

Oh no, I wasn't thinking in terms exclusion like you are saying. America is made up of members of all kinds of faiths, or no religious affiliations at all. But would you ban singing "God Bless America" at a public event because it trips the sensibilities of our fellow American atheists?

 

[Muslimwoman]

So we call for millions to fast from food from sunrise to sunset on October 8, and to connect that physical fast with sharing our food with the hungry and with a cultural, emotional, and political fast from acts and spectacles of violence..."

Forgive me Dauer but would it not be better if everyone that fasts sends that days food money to a "fasting organisation" so that hungry people can be offered ways of creating and providing themselves food (ie farm tools instead of a bag of rice)?

 

[dauer]

mw,

I think that would be a great adjunct onto it and would seem to feed directly into the aims of the project. I would go even further and suggest that the money be sent to agencies that offer food/shelter/medical aid to the needy in countries each of us is less fond of because of the actions of certain groups within the countries or their governments.

Dauer

 

[Muslimwoman]

I think that would be a great adjunct onto it and would seem to feed directly into the aims of the project. I would go even further and suggest that the money be sent to agencies that offer food/shelter/medical aid to the needy in countries each of us is less fond of because of the actions of certain groups within the countries or their governments.

Great, so you have your next assignment....off you go LOL Every time I fast I shall send your organisation money (wow you could be well off, I am very naughty so have to fast a lot ).

 

[Snoopy]

Should faith be a part of patriotic celebration? Why or why not?

Sounds like a potentially dangerous mixture to me. I think they're best kept in separate bottles.

s.

 

[LeoSalinas22]

i have an opinion, if you all don't mind. i always see on u.s. coins or people blessing their own country or queen, like God bless america or God save the queen. i mean, are we that selfish that we can't ask God to bless our world, to bless all of us, especially the poor, deceased, widowed, orphans, etc. no, we have to just bless our country or our king or queen. to heck with that ideal! God bless this world and the race of man. may God have mercy on our dirty, selfish hearts. so no, God and patriotism shouldn't be mixed. if a country wants to celebrate a holiday, just leave God out of it. the least we should do is thank God for having enough mercy to let us live in free countries and not thank man. just my two cents.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Great comments Leo and surely G-d would be much more likely to 'bless' our country if our countries spend from their resources to help others in the world (and I don't mean the token, here's some cash get on with it help but real sustainable assistance).

Salaam

 

[Tao_Equus]

i have an opinion, if you all don't mind. i always see on u.s. coins or people blessing their own country or queen, like God bless america or God save the queen. i mean, are we that selfish that we can't ask God to bless our world, to bless all of us, especially the poor, deceased, widowed, orphans, etc. no, we have to just bless our country or our king or queen. to heck with that ideal! God bless this world and the race of man. may God have mercy on our dirty, selfish hearts. so no, God and patriotism shouldn't be mixed. if a country wants to celebrate a holiday, just leave God out of it. the least we should do is thank God for having enough mercy to let us live in free countries and not thank man. just my two cents.

I agree with you on this. Every note issued by the Federal Reserve carries the message clear and bold In God We Trust, which kind of implies you cant trust anyone/thing else. Almost invariably the most venerated people are the rich and famous rather than the 'good'. In The USA this is almost a religion in its own right. Certain groups in America peddle the myth that the US is a charitable, benevolent nation that gives much to the poor and hungry the world over. The fact that it is the biggest net beneficiary of and a vampire like drain on Global resources is rarely understood there. Ignorance with the glossy wrapping of that now stomach churning slogan "God Bless America" allows people to feel self righteous and is so very clearly a political tool, a keystone in the brainwash.
As a Global Citizen first and foremost I find many flag waving events scary. When you look at the history of fanatical nationalism flag waving is a key indicator of sickness at the root. The combining of God and Politics into a single justification for a chosen course is a recipe for hatred and intolerance of anything different. This is why I find Islam and American Moral Majority Christianity (a misnomer if ever there was one) abhorrent. Mixing the two fields is lighting a fuse in my opinion, a fuse that invariably burns its way to a nasty explosion. When you see men as Godless as GWB consistently claiming higher authority you know your country has deep troubles.
Here in the UK we have a new "Christian" Prime Minister, the son of a Presbyterian who has long been in cosy embrace and an attendee of the economic elite groups that run the show. Already within a week of him taking over we have had his "moral" opinion that we should suspend human rights to fight this artificial threat of terrorism. I for one do not trust "men of God" to run a country. You cannot have 2 masters.

TE

 

[Muslimwoman]

As a Global Citizen first and foremost I find many flag waving events scary.

I really hate the "we won the war days". Rememberence days are solemn days to remember those that fought and died for our freedom and we often remember those humans that died on the opposing side, I like these days. However, the flag waving "we won" days make me feel sick, they belittle the deaths of those that died on both sides, their families that loved them and the suffering during the aftermath of war for the "losers". There is just something 'inhumane' about celebrating death with flag waving, cheering and dressing up.

The combining of God and Politics into a single justification for a chosen course is a recipe for hatred and intolerance of anything different.

Despite being a Muslim I have to agree with this. I was in a Muslim forum a few days ago and someone has at the bottom of every one of their posts the words "Muslims do not grass on other Muslims". I cancelled my membership. The idea being that even if I know the guy next door is building bombs to kill innocent people I should not tell anyone, as it goes against our religion. So I am meant to allow the sin of killing of innocent people in order not to sin by grassing on a Muslim . Yeah right, I would dial 999 in 2 seconds flat. This goes against so many Islamic teachings but is an effective political tool. Can you imagine the scene on Judgement Day:

G-d "you knew he was going to kill innocent people, why didn't you do anything?"

Me "I was told not to grass on Muslims"

G-d "take the door on the left market eternal Damnation"

We don't live in small social groups anymore, we are, as you say, a global community and this attitude can do nothing to create tolerance and understanding between communities.

 

[bananabrain]

on one hand i agree with dauer that you shouldn't leave G!D out of anything because "there is no place empty of the Divine". on the other hand, my opinion is that the nation-state is not a suitable vehicle for religious expression, so i believe that expressions of religious enthusiasm should be strictly regulated where it comes to patriotism. we have a principle called "dina de'malchuta dina", which translates roughly as "the law of the land in which you live is binding upon you" and this is applicable in all cases other than that of an entity defined as a "robber state". it is important to remember, incidentally, that even the roman empire was not defined as such and that is the religious paradigm of bad rulership. in fact we are enjoined to "pray for the peace of the government, for without it we'd tear each other to pieces", which i consider an expression of pragmatism. basically, we can pray for the government to behave ethically and morally and that is more or less the basis for all our thinking on this front. i should also point out that monarchs are considered to have an extra set of stuff attached to them so there's stuff you can do for monarchies you can't do for other institutions. on the other hand, praying for your country because states are inherently a good thing is not really a jewish position.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Tao_Equus]

Do you mind expanding and explaining what 'extra stuff' attached to monarchies?

Ty

Tao

 

[bananabrain]

yeah, you have to give extra respect to monarchs because G!D has "monarchic" characteristics, thus monarchs derive part of their "glory" from G!D (which is not the same thing as "divine right", incidentally) so there's a special blessing you say when you see a monarch, plus there are certain halakhic standards which use kings as a calibrator, thus food can be judged on whether it is "fit for a king's table" or dress can be judged on whether it is "fit to wear in front of a king".

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Tao_Equus]

Thanks