bruce,
Bruce Michael said:
You assume that the laws of Leviticus are part of a "primitive health drive". But I don't see a reference to that in Leviticus. Good health may have been a by-product, but that is not the reason for the laws.
i don't think you've actually understood a word i've said. i am an observant jew. i keep kosher. as far as i am concerned the laws in the Torah were given by G!D. that is my starting point.
the laws in the Torah are also of several sorts. according to most classifications, there is a difference between laws that have a rational basis (mishpatim) and those that serve a cultic purpose (
huqqim). they are distinguished in the Text themselves, usually by separate mentions as "laws and statutes" - both of which, in english, mean the same thing. in biblical hebrew they do not. kashrut is, according to most interpretations, cultic, not rational, except insofar as it serves to bolster community cohesion, in that if you can't eat with someone it makes it harder to intermarry with them. my point is, however, that these are spiritual laws for which the *reasons (as you yourself realise) are not given*. that means that pseudo-scientific logic and post-hoc rationalisation are not the most appropriate tools for understanding them. kashrut operates on an entirely different level and, as i said, is *not* designed as a "healthy eating" regimen. anyone who's ever eaten kugel or would know that.
These days we need good reasons, then we think about it and decide whether we should go ahead and practice those laws or not.
that is not the viewpoint of traditionally-minded jews. as you are no doubt aware, not understanding the reasons is not a reason to ditch the law, but an opportunity to look deeper into them. the Torah says "na'aseh ve-nishm'a" - "we shall do and we shall hear/understand": in that order. not, "we shall look at the reasons and then we shall decide whether to do or not". that's a fundamental difference.
As I said we need to know the spiritual reasons of why these things were given out as laws in the first place. You are assuming it was just for mundane reasons.
like i said, that is the precise opposite of what i am saying. we are perfectly aware of the spiritual reasons, which are, as i said, to do with tumah and taharah, which are absolutely *not* to do with hygiene.
Oh yes there is[intrinsic tumah in a pig?]. The pig does not appear to exhibit an evil nature.
i have no idea what you mean by this. a pig is an animal. it cannot be "evil" if it has no concept of free-will, or choice, or good and evil. it is an animal and acts on instinct and conditioning.
They are intelligent, and quite compatible with human beings. Look at the back of your hand and see how much it looks like pigskin. Our friend the pig also is recognized in medical science, as having organs which are quite close to the human.
and xenotransplants from pigs are permitted in halakhah (jewish law) - we may not be permitted to eat a pig, but we can certainly save a human life using one. this is what JWs get wrong - transplants are not considered "eating" - besides, if i was on a desert island with only pork to eat, it would be halakhically required for me to do so.
Well yes the truth always rests on facts, doesn't it?
if you want to debate the nature of truth, this is not the right subject to do it on. you and i have different axiomatic standpoints - you appear to believe that Torah laws are designed to deliver some kind of scientific proof, whereas i am of the opinion that Torah laws are designed for the spiritual benefit of the jewish people and, where appropriate, the wider world. kashrut is a jewish thing, otherwise it'd be in the noahide laws. Torah is designed to be consistent with itself, not with science, despite many areas in which the two may or may not be in agreement - science and Torah have different (albeit not contradictory) standards of evidence and methodology.
You might accept those facts or not- that is your business.
it is certainly my business to distinguish between facts and anecdotal wishful thinking supported by questionable science.
One thing I do know is that many Christians, the Jews and the Muslims, all agree that pig eating is a disgusting practice.
well i don't agree with that. and i know a lot of other far more learned jews that don't agree with that. disgust is cultural - we may not eat it, but we are not commanded to be disgusted by it. either way this statement hardly qualifies as a "fact".
Why is it then that the pig has been held in horror by Man for generations?
again, this is more of your "man in the pub" "everybody knows" wisdom. it's not exactly a "fact".
Lower entities are attracted in such an indulgence as pig eating, a practice that negates aspiring humanhood.
what is "indulgent" about eating pigs as opposed to, say, cows? and what's it got to do with humanhood? this just sounds like a bunch of overblown windy rhetoric to me.
We already know of the attraction of demons to swine, as a description is given in the Gospels.
ah, the gospels, of course, also being a 100% factual basis for your scientific conclusions that pork is unhealthy.
As to diabetes, I would be looking at the rates in men of the Seventh Day Adventist church- half that of the general population.
well, as i've already said, observant jewish diabetes isn't half that of the general population, nor is hindu diabetes, so that just doesn't really stack up, does it?
Steiner states that the dietary laws forbidding pork consumption were given to the Jews because of their susceptibility to that disease.
and who the arse made him an authority on the reasons for kashrut? find me someone who knows about halakhah that says that and you've got a case, but i've never heard anything to suggest it.
wil said:
It is said that it is more important what comes out of our mouth than what goes in it. I'd say that applies to our fingers as well.
there are halakhic arguments about what constitutes the act of eating, but as you say, it's not just about mouths. in fact, if you'll indulge me, uncle bananabrain's pet theory about tuma and taharah (unsupported by official sanction, naturally) is that your average human is a set of pipes, some physical, some spiritual, some both. thus it is very important what goes into your pipes and what comes out of them and what they get connected up to at any given time. seeing things like that it makes a lot of sense what your various bodily and spiritual interfaces and orifices are used for.
greymare said:
but this concept that the pig is what,(evil, unclean). oooohhhhh. scary. like any animal bred for the domestic meat market, it is as clean as the processess that the carcass goes through. not some heebie jeebie rubbish.
precisely.
b'shalom
bananabrain
